Wolf27 Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Hi All Now that I am in posession of a Heljan 86 its time to rake over old coals with the aid of some photos. When Heljan first released the cad images I pointed out that it looked wrong, either on RMweb or the DEMU forum, cant remember which but I think I said something like looks like where going to have a pup on our hands. The main issue was the rake of the cab windscreens and as is well documented know, Heljan never corrected this. When the local model shop had them in stock I had a closer look. What I saw really dissapointed me. Not only where the cabs wrong,the bodyside grills are all over the shop. Needless to say it went back in the box. I thought I'll just bide my time until they are dropped in price by the big box shifter and then I would consider one. That time has now come. First up an overall shot, in which it does look nice Heljan 86 019 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr The best angle to look at it Heljan 86 018 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr A Hornby model for comparison Hornby 86 006 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr Now,the problem for me is the bodyside grilles, study the pic and you can see how the top edge of the grille surround intersects the cant rail shoulder and how the upper section of the bodyside is flush with the cantrail Heljan 86 004 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr And now Hornbys model for comparison,which does have its own faults in this area but at least it looks 100% better Hornby 86 001 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr The difference is staggering. The five section grille in the middle is even worse. The grille slats should be recessed but on the Heljan version they appear to be slightly proud of the surround. Heljan 86 005 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr Again Hornby for comparison Hornby 86 002 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr Words fail me. Now to the other side. The upper bodyside is a bit more how it should be, but is still wrong. If the other side was like this it would have made the model all the more passable. Heljan 86 007 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr Hornby, note how the size of the window is also significantly different, and the better rivet detail. Hornby 86 004 by Shane Wilton, on Flickr It really does begger belief that the Heljan model even made the approval stage, each side has huge differences in details that should be identical. It just smacks of a rush job, which has now come back to bite them in the ar*e. Which is a real shame as I like Heljan models and the running gear is really rather nice. They could have been onto a sure fire winner with this, which they so nearly did, but the serious character flaws have sealed its fate. The body of mine will be sold on and the chassis fitted with a Hornby body. cheers Shane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattG Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Thanks for that Shane, excellent comparison and a timely reminder of why this model is wrong without having to look through past posts. If ever I needed persuading not to buy one of these, even at rock bottom prices, your info has well and truly closed the door. You're right, such a shame, how could they have got it so wrong in this day and age? The way Heljan is performing at the moment........enough said, but going on past posts if they'd got it right they could've almost had a license to print money. Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombatofludham Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Interesting review, I han't picked up that the "corridor" side of the loco had a marginally better rendition of the grille area, nor that the bars of the grilles extended over the grille frame. It's actually quite shocking that a loco that was being touted as a super detail modern representation got so many things wrong when there are enough of the class knocking around to get it right. Add in the fact they've modelled the loco in a condition appropriate for a relatively short part of their life, necessitating a lot of butchery of quite small but noticeable details if you want to back date them, and of course the grossly over the top pantograph and you wonder quite what the Danes were taking at the time they approved the model. I'm personally convinced this loco hasn't sold because of the deficiencies you've outlined and not because they are AC traction, but unfortunately the allegedly poor sales of the Heljan 86 has given the "anti-AC" naysayers the opportunity to say "we told you so, no-one likes electric traction" which potentially could become a self-fulfilling prophesy if the RTR manufacturers shy away from new AC electric models in favour of "safer" steam or dmu types. Fortunately Bachmann's 85 seems to be doing very well with even non-electric modellers buying them for show - which hopefully will scotch this myth the way their CEP and EPB units scotched the "no-one likes third rail units, they're too boring" recieved wisdom of yore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 People are perfectly entitled to like a model or not but this image http://www.flickr.co...013/6310403258/ Proves that the body sides certainly are not flush, sorry. This is the window side (which is the corridor side - I assume that's what you meant?) Anglian 86s had surrounds to the sandbox covers, if Heljan did measure one they completely missed that too. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 None corridor side Both are the same are are definitely not flush Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sutton Junction Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I recived my Virgin 86 today and im very impressed with it. It may not be 100 percent perfect in the looks department but to me it looks good. Only problem I have is with the pantograph which is obviously too big but other than that I can forgive its foibles. I havent ran it yet but have high hopes for its performance. In my opinion well worth the £49 I paid for it and will buy another one Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevpeo Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 If anybody else is thinking of taking the opportunity to re-motor a Lima 87 using the Heljan 86 chassis , please note, although the length and width fit perfectly, the height is another matter! Look closely and you'll notice the Lima roof 'well' is deeper, and as the Heljan chassis is a tight fit height wise in its 86 something has to go! The problem is all the components sticking up on the PCB, which I chose to remove completely - Unmodified 86 at the back, 87 fit-able at the front. The left hand copper-clad connections are for the lights and front pick-ups. The right hand one for the rear pick-ups and DCC decoder, and the centre copper-clad is for the speaker connections from underneath. As long as everything is lower than the top of the metal chassis block it all now fits in. hth, kev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 If anybody else is thinking of taking the opportunity to re-motor a Lima 87 using the Heljan 86 chassis , please note, although the length and width fit perfectly, the height is another matter! Look closely and you'll notice the Lima roof 'well' is deeper, and as the Heljan chassis is a tight fit height wise in its 86 something has to go! The problem is all the components sticking up on the PCB, which I chose to remove completely - Unmodified 86 at the back, 87 fit-able at the front. The left hand copper-clad connections are for the lights and front pick-ups. The right hand one for the rear pick-ups and DCC decoder, and the centre copper-clad is for the speaker connections from underneath. As long as everything is lower than the top of the metal chassis block it all now fits in. hth, kev. interesting to know about remotoring for older 87s-its just what they need this sort of chassis but knowing my luck ill tackle one then Bachmann or Dapol will announce their own. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sutton Junction Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 If anyones interested ive just uploaded a video to my youtube channel which gives a quick overview in photos of my Virgin Class 86. Its fairly detailed and will give anyone sat on the fence about getting one a good idea of what its like alround. Youtube Channel - ApacheBravo. Check it out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Mine arrived today(Virgin livery)......broken, very disappointed as there are non left to be able to replace it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf27 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 What's broken on it, I may be able to help you out. Cheers Shane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 What's broken on it, I may be able to help you out. Cheers Shane Hi Shane, It is the bogie support (part#65) Thanks Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan452 Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 The five section grille in the middle is even worse. The grille slats should be recessed but on the Heljan version they appear to be slightly proud of the surround. It really does begger belief that the Heljan model even made the approval stage, each side has huge differences in details that should be identical. It just smacks of a rush job, which has now come back to bite them in the ar*e. Which is a real shame as I like Heljan models and the running gear is really rather nice. They could have been onto a sure fire winner with this, which they so nearly did, but the serious character flaws have sealed its fate. The body of mine will be sold on and the chassis fitted with a Hornby body. cheers Shane Still can't get over the above illustrated grilles. I am just watching one of my WCML AC loco DVD's, there is definately nothing like these, even if Heljan did measure up a withdrawn Anglia example. I was of the previous opinion that had the pantograph been better, the model would have just about made the 'acceptable' grade. (At least for the average modeller like myself.) This picture has now changed that opinion despite being in possesion of the Alstom Heritage and Freightliner versions. So over to Rail Exclusives a la the Class 33/0 (though noting that this has now been further delayed). Incidentally do Howes read these threads? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Still can't get over the above illustrated grilles. I am just watching one of my WCML AC loco DVD's, there is definately nothing like these, even if Heljan did measure up a withdrawn Anglia example. I was of the previous opinion that had the pantograph been better, the model would have just about made the 'acceptable' grade. (At least for the average modeller like myself.) This picture has now changed that opinion despite being in possesion of the Alstom Heritage and Freightliner versions. There was definitely an Anglia 86 at Long Marston with red grilles, maybe these weren't bolted on properly and were flush with the bodyside...? Either way, someone in Legoland definitely wasn't sat at their desk with a Hornby 86, thinking "We need to make a better one than this". At least whoever in China with the same job in the future will have an easier time of it if they're going through the same process with a Helljan one... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neal Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 My bargain heritage 86 arrived this week, and as with the freightiner version I had already purchased, this had suffered in transit with radio masts flattened. There really is too much play in the foam packaging on this model, something that has been corrected on subsequent Heljan models with the plastic insert. In addition, the pantograph was missing the 'spider' - part P7, to the upper arm. There was no sign of this in the box, and indeed no evidence that this had ever been fitted. Looking at photo's and my other loco, I don't see how this could have come astray, despite the loose foam packaging. I have asked for a replacement part, hopefully the vendor will be helpful! In terms of the general model, it is o.k. Despite the flaws identified within this and other forums, for under fifty quid, it is still a bargain. There are obviously quality issues with this production run, largely associated with the paint finish. The heritage version is a tad glossy for my liking, however most obvious is the 'orange-peel' sprayed finish, particularly to the white cab area. Many images show the poorly masked white underneath the front windows, and whilst my model is not as bad as some, it is really not what one would call crisp. I get the impression that the paint is generally applied too thickly, and as the white is painted over the blue this would appear to have been done to ensure coverage in a single coat. Whilst it sounds unlikely that Heljan will do another production run (although they said that about the 47's) I wonder if they would have been better received if the paint finish had been spot on, and they had been better packaged for postal transit. Would they dare do another run with updated sector, res and new freightiner liveries, perhaps with a better pantograph, and top notch paint finish? Perhaps with a RRP of £99 they might just get away with it! N Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neal Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Reference my previous post, got this e-mail back by return from Hattons: Dear Sir, Thank you very much for your email. I am very sorry to hear that you have received this loco with parts missing. I have had a look into this for you, and have managed to take the part P7 from a faulty locomotive. This has been sent out to you in the post and so should be with you very soon. Thank you again for your order, and apologies for the inconvenience you have been caused. If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to get in touch. Regards, Retail Assistant What great service, and on a Saturday morning! N Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I emailed them and they said I had to call them as per the website. When I went to the website it said I could email them. I am trying to find the part I need elsewhere so will not bother returning the model. (They have no more left in stock anyway). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Try Howes of Oxford, the Heljan reps here in the UK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Would they dare do another run with updated sector, res and new freightiner liveries, perhaps with a better pantograph, and top notch paint finish? Perhaps with a RRP of £99 they might just get away with it! N You'd be better off hanging onto your £99 until Bachmann announce something obvious they already have alot of bits for and know will sell.... an 81... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Reference my previous post, got this e-mail back by return from Hattons: Dear Sir, Thank you very much for your email. I am very sorry to hear that you have received this loco with parts missing. I have had a look into this for you, and have managed to take the part P7 from a faulty locomotive. This has been sent out to you in the post and so should be with you very soon. Thank you again for your order, and apologies for the inconvenience you have been caused. If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to get in touch. Regards, Retail Assistant What great service, and on a Saturday morning! N Interesting as I received an email back saying they had not received any 86s back so were unable to use one for spare parts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Wondering if someone with a Virgin 86 can post some shots of the roof for me. Initially mine arrived broken, I managed to get the replacement piece got it fixed, chipped and on the layout. Wonderful and I was really pleased with my first Heljan and also my first electric locomotive. Imagine my dismay when I set it running and then leaned over to connect my 57 to some carriages on the inner track I knocked it off of the track Damn controller that was hanging around my neck clipped it and unlike a cat they do not land on their wheels!! It fell on its side and the windows came loose on both ends. The pantograph came off and a couple of the little red parts (not sure of the name)flew off too. I think I have recovered most of the parts so just need the photo to see what I may be missing. Also does anyone have any idea the best way to remove the cabs so I can f=refit the glass? Thanks Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Good luck with the cabs, one of mine came out quite easily, the other I ended up snapping. Re: the roof, there are good enough pics on the Hattons site. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClikC Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Wondering if someone with a Virgin 86 can post some shots of the roof for me. Initially mine arrived broken, I managed to get the replacement piece got it fixed, chipped and on the layout. Wonderful and I was really pleased with my first Heljan and also my first electric locomotive. Imagine my dismay when I set it running and then leaned over to connect my 57 to some carriages on the inner track I knocked it off of the track Damn controller that was hanging around my neck clipped it and unlike a cat they do not land on their wheels!! It fell on its side and the windows came loose on both ends. The pantograph came off and a couple of the little red parts (not sure of the name)flew off too. I think I have recovered most of the parts so just need the photo to see what I may be missing. Also does anyone have any idea the best way to remove the cabs so I can f=refit the glass? Thanks Scott I hacked the roof out of my HJ 86 (With a vindictive grin and a cackle of mad laughter I might add) and plugged it into a lima 87. Though not an ideal photo, might give you a clue as to where your missing insulators go. I removed the Cabs with a Razorsaw, though I suspect that is not the answer you we're looking for... Regards Matt / ClikC P.S. my 87 project sits on the shelf, until I get a bit futher with finding some solid messurements (not trying to extrapolate from random photo's) from a GEC (AEI) Cross-arm Pantograph. P.P.S If someone knows the location of a works drawing for an 87 / GEC pan... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Thanks Charlie & Matt, Think I have figured out where everything goes now. Just have to get cabs out. Regards Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timara Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Scott, If you fancied a bit of a challenge to rework the cab area of the HJ model (one of its numerous weaknesses), you could always take a spare Hornby shell and give this a try . Reminds me, I must get on with it and get it finished....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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