Wills Flatiron kit

[Romsey Les]

I`ve got a Wills Flatiron kit with a chassis kit. I started it (just) about 25 years ago but somehow it got put on ice. Is there much interest in these kits nowadays as the ready to run models have got so much better?

 

Thanks in advance for any replies,

 

Les

[Adam]

I'm slightly baffled by the premise of your question if I'm honest. If you mean kits in general then yes, there does seem to be a certain amount of interest on this forum and elsewhere.

 

More specifically, if you want a Flatiron, then the Wills kit (I think this one has been upgraded by SE Finecast in relatively recent years so an etched chassis is now available from them) is the only game in town in 4mm short of scratch-building. RTR is therefore irrelevant in this context. If you mean can kits compete with modern RTR then, with care, the answer is yes. Whether you can be happy with that, I'm afraid, is a question only you can answer. Happy modelling.

 

Adam

[Romsey Les]

Adam reminds me (correctly) to be more careful in the way I phrase my questions. I realise there is no RTR model of a Flatiron. Perhaps what I should have said is that I am toying with the idea of getting rid of it and wanted to know if this is the kind of thing that is likely to attract buyers. I think I`d better do a bit more research before I post again, I had no idea Wills kits were still available,

 

Les

[Kenton]

Perhaps what I should have said is that I am toying with the idea of getting rid of it and wanted to know if this is the kind of thing that is likely to attract buyers. I think I`d better do a bit more research before I post again, I had no idea Wills kits were still available,

Just a look at eBay (I'm surprised you haven't already) will show you that sometimes ridiculous prices can be paid for other peoples failed kit builds.

Though to some extent the popularity of the prototype, the reputation of kit manufacturer and completeness of the kit play a big part.

[hayfield]

Les no problem with the posting, or asking questions that how we all learn

 

South Eastern Finecast have taken over the range http://www.sefinecast.co.uk/Locomotives/New%20and%20Revised%20Loco%20Kits%20Page%206.htm page 6, they have up graded the kit with an etched chassis, 2 sheets of etched brass details and have included cab interior fittings, and can be made into 1 of 3 variants. Thats the bad news, with the kit approaching £100 plus wheels motor and gears its quite expensive.

 

Your kit is desigmed to fit on the Hornby 0-6-0 chassis, Wills and SEF have also produced etched brass chassis for this loco. They come up quite regularly on Ebay and do sell well. I fall into the group that likes rebuilding badly made models, unmade kits are more expensive and well made ones fetch a premium. Having the box and instructions etc helps

 

Like all things a good clear description along with a good picture of all the parts will increase the price. May be worth just watching a few items on Ebay to get a feel of how much similar items fetch. Remember with your kit the updated item has an etched chassis and additional etched and cast parts. Still has a value which could be more than you paid for it if you have had it some time.

[Boris]

Any chance of a picture or two? I've got my eye on the 7mm (O gauge) Slaters version and quite fancy a look at anything even resembling it.

[EddieB]

There's one going on eBay at the moment - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RARE-Wills-LMS-Deeley-Flatiron-0-6-4-loco-kit-built-/330530259291?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item4cf523815b. Looks black in the first picture, maroon in the others.

 

The Flatiron was the first whitemetal loco kit I built (and it shows!), based on the original "Jinty" chassis option. In many ways I think an unbuilt kit would attract more interest than a partially built kit and the same over a finished kit - unless it was built and finished to the highest standards.

 

The distinctive looks has made the prototype a popular model, even if the class were poor runners (like my model) and lasted only into the late 'thirties. I have a few photographs (mainly Photomatic) which I cannot post because of copyright. There are some links below (the last with quite a few images).

 

http://www.old-dalby.com/images/nottm1930-2.jpg

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrbg143.htm

http://kettlesgalore.fotopic.net/p65810378.html

[Romsey Les]

Attached (hopefully) is as far as I got with it. The body is assembled with epoxy.

Better pictures in daylight tomorrow if anyone wants some.

[bertiedog]

Your example is one of the later Wills versions, and with the better chassis kit as well, and with all N/S wheels so should sell quite well, as it will take a modern motor and then you have a decent model locomotive. Put it in classifieds on here, (if you have a valuation in mind), or on the open market on Ebay (TIP) put as much detail and shots as you can on Ebay, it helps attract attention.Be concise, but lots of it!

Stephen.

[John_Hughes]

I'm in the middle of building the current chassis for this one, and once I managed to get the sides level and square there were no problems, so I'd say Go for it yourself, but better get the up-to-date chassis rather than the old Hornby one.

 

These locos do have the benefit of lots of room inside, so you can really spread yourself with the works.

 

As others have said, this is the only route to getting a 4mm Flatiron; and although they were not particularly successful as prototypes, they do make good and popular models, and they look the real business.

 

As an aside, does anyone know if they were fitted with anti-slosh plates? My own suspicion is that part of the reason for their lack of stability when running forward was water-surge in those big tanks.

 

Anyway, here's my chassis a couple of weeks back:

[Poor Old Bruce]

and can be made into 1 of 3 variants.

Three variants? Educate me please, I thought there were only two: As built with round-top firebox and Superheated with Belpaire firebox. AFAIK SEF produce two separate kits because the boiler castings are very different but they did supply me with the necessary parts to backdate mine to as-built.

 

Edit - If that sounds a bit stroppy I apologise but it isn't intended to be

[John_Hughes]

Three variants? Educate me please, I thought there were only two: As built with round-top firebox and Superheated with Belpaire firebox. AFAIK SEF produce two separate kits because the boiler castings are very different but they did supply me with the necessary parts to backdate mine to as-built.

 

Edit - If that sounds a bit stroppy I apologise but it isn't intended to be

 

I presume the 'third variant' would be the ones tried briefly on the LT&S, which were fitted with Westinghouse gear? I have it in my mind that at least one kept this until almost the bitter end, but I haven't checked that.

[hayfield]

I should have said 3 variations (though there may be more) not varients. 3 different Smoke box wrappers, 2 Cab front spectacle plates, 4 saftey valves 2 smoke box doors etc. Sorry for the error

 

 

Must give it a dust and finish the painting.

[Poor Old Bruce]

I should have said 3 variations (though there may be more) not varients. 3 different Smoke box wrappers, 2 Cab front spectacle plates, 4 saftey valves 2 smoke box doors etc. Sorry for the error

 

 

Must give it a dust and finish the painting.

Thanks Hayfield, you had be worried then that I had missed something (else).

[Romsey Les]

Thanks to everyone for commenting. I`ve decided to sell it so I have put it on ebay,

 

Les

[Mrkirtley800]

Hello. I built a flatiron using some of the Will's kit. I wanted one in original condition, without an extended smokebox, since my layout is set circa 1908 when the engines were pretty new. I got one of the kits in the 1970's I think, but used brass tube for the boiler, and built a new set of main frames (don't like the use of chassis with respect to steam locos) to EM gauge with beam compensation. Powered by one of the best kept secrets of the model railway world, an Ultrascale motor/gearbox unit. Consists of a large Buhler motor with a nicely produced machined all brass gearbox. A real beauty of a power unit but sadly no longer available. The loco runs and pulls very well.

Here it is running light through Canal Road Station

 

[RW James]

Kit vs RTR - may I throw in my $0.02 (US)?

 

This is a dilemma I have faced many times over the 40 odd years I've been in this hobby. For me it comes down to what I want to do. Some parts of this hobby are much more enjoyable than others. For instance, I enjoy hand laying track - for a short distance - like say a diorama. But over a whole layout, for me that's just a chore. Especially when flex track really looks so good!. (Keep in mind, I started this hobby when fibre ties (sleepers) was all there was.)

 

I've built a few locomotive kits over the years and I'm very proud of them. But when I see a RTR loco that looks good AND runs well - for me there's no choice.

 

I know this is not what the OP meant - but it just brought all this to mind.

 

But regarding the marketability of old kits - I've bought a few over time and very much enjoy working on them - often using them as a basis for a fun kitbash, replacing old rough castings with newer versions.

[DIW]

The Wills Flatiron - that was the first loco kit I built, back in 1979-80 (I can date it to the use to which I put its box). I had built the ratio LMS coach kits and wanted a cheap-ish loco kit to go with it. The Flatiron seemed to suit the purpose well.

 

I used flanged Romford drivers on all 3 axles (as opposed to flangeless on the centre axle) on the Rovex 0-6-0 chassis. Since it was for display, it didn't matter too much that the centre axle was very slightly lower than the outer two. This did of course affect its ability to take corners.

 

 

I think it made up as a nice kit. I'm not an LMS follower so I've no idea if the loco livery is correct (or for the coaches for that matter), I simply followed the instructions in the kits. It hasn't been weathered; that's real age!

 

 

 

 

Closer view of the other side

 

 

 

The chassis and the interior

 

 

 

I bought my 12v soldering iron to make this kit, and ran it from a controller to reduce the temperature for the low-melt solder. It seems to have made a neat job. The coaches were also a first in that I used an airbrush for the first time to paint them.

 

Since the Flatiron kit I have scratchbuilt my stock - nothing commercially available for what I exhibit! My second loco kit was started only last August!

 

Dave

Edited July 29, 2022 by DIW
Pictures re-uploaded

[James]

Just a look at eBay (I'm surprised you haven't already) will show you that sometimes ridiculous prices can be paid for other peoples failed kit builds.

Not so long ago exhibitions were great places to buy part built kits at low prices!

 

When I was in my teens I bought a number as they provided a great way to an inexpensive project perfect for learning.

[Kenton]

Not so long ago exhibitions were great places to buy part built kits at low prices!

A matter of less than 10 years possiblt less.

 

I blame eBay, it has raised the expectations of what used to be classed as junk and would have either gone to landfill or to the box under the table at a s/h stall - often with the original owner embarrassed to admit to the failure.

Now it gets put up on ebay and the price climbs up to more than was paid for the original kit and often more than you can buy a new untouched kit direct from the manufacturer. I think the prices paid are scandalous - and the expectations continue to grow. A very nice Mitchell kit (one of several) was recently sold way over the odds at very close to the current new price. Started and claimed to have been "well put together" it should have been sold second hand scrap. In my experience most kits "started" have to be stripped down and "started properly" especially concenning chassis and kits "glued together" instead of just badly soldered (where you just need a reel or two of desolder braid)

[James]

It's not just loco kits - car parts too have suffered from eBay.

 

When Secondhand kits really need to be broken down to components again before you start to rebuild them. Only one kit I've bought secondhand have I been able to start where the previous owner left things; a Centre Models Kerr Stuart Victory tank loco. The body mostly complete and nicely put together, everything complete, no damaged parts - £25 from the NYMR shed shop at Grosmont I doubt I'll ever get anything that good value again.

[Romsey Les]

I seem to have started something here so just a thought or two.

I used to find that epoxy was easily broken down with paint stipper, e.g. Nitromors or similar, some years since I did it though, the formula of the stripper and the epoxy may have changed since?

I think ebay has been good and bad. I think it is a pity that some of the toy fairs/swapmeets have declined or stopped operating since the advent of ebay and it has certainly had an effect on those model shops that used to carry good secondhand stuff, many have closed. On the other hand I lost count of the time and money I spent trawling around looking for particular items, I accept I enjoyed browsing through what was on offer but often came away with nothing.

The plus side of ebay is that there is more stuff available, often small items you would have struggled to find in those big mixed boxes hidden under the table. My son tells me the reason people pay silly prices is firstly that you don`t have to go out to look, you sit there and play on the screen and it arrives by post. Secondly he thinks people don`t consider Paypal is real money, people don`t think of it in the same way as handing over cash.

People who buy things on ebay are not forced to pay over the odds, it`s their choice. If you want loco X or Kit Y you can see if it`s on ebay and pay what you are prepared to. If you think it`s been bid up too high then don`t buy it. If you want to you can spend the next 5 years going to toy fairs, swapmeets and shops looking for it. If you can find it then lucky you. In my experience if something on ebay goes over the top in price there will be another one along fairly soon.

[Kenton]

I used to find that epoxy was easily broken down with paint stipper, e.g. Nitromors or similar, some years since I did it though, the formula of the stripper and the epoxy may have changed since?

 

It still does.

Also a pot of boiling water to get rid of poor attempts at low melt soldering

... and a blow torch - gas soldering iron and lots of desolder braid - or and old tin tray in the oven to deconstruct brass soldered kits.

 

If you think it`s been bid up too high then don`t buy it. If you want to you can spend the next 5 years going to toy fairs, swapmeets and shops looking for it. If you can find it then lucky you. In my experience if something on ebay goes over the top in price there will be another one along fairly soon.

I find it a very distorted marketplace.

I am certain that many are buying just to capitalise on the rarity - so called collector - and that may be true at the highly sought after and out of production kit market.

 

But there still is a big difference between what is a badly made up kit, part completed with bits missing (because the seller hasn't checked - didn't know) and probably other bits damaged - and the seller of a pristine kit from the treasure chest. If the kit is really pristine then maybe a price just shy of the original price is fair but on the the others it is just scrap box rescued from the tip, I begrudge the seller making as much as the manufacturer. These "repair" scrap jobs take a lot of effort to put back into their original form to be rebuilt.

[John_Hughes]

I'm reviving this thread to share a smile about the oddest things I've ever had cause a loco to stall.

 

The chassis in question - picture below - runs superbly, though I say so myself; sprung on the leading two axles, and with the bogie also sprung down from the frames, it just glides along the track.

 

Except that it stopped doing so, and for no reason I could fathom. At odd intervals it would stall, always in the same relative position of the driving wheels, with no obvious binding anywhere and no short circuit. With the body on it was even worse.

 

Wheels and pickups were cleaned - no improvement; another check of the coupling rods showed nothing wrong; and absolutely nothing was catching on anything else at all.

 

I finally found the problem a few minutes ago, and it only took two minutes to cure once it was spotted - but I won't spoil the end of the story by saying what it was. Over to you, folks - sensible guesses, please?

 

And yes, it is visible - just - in the picture!

[Horsetan]

.....A very nice Mitchell kit (one of several) was recently sold way over the odds at very close to the current new price. Started and claimed to have been "well put together" it should have been sold second hand scrap. ....

 

Ah....that must have been that Mitchell "Grange". Even the auction photo showed it drowning under solder. Think the start price was £100.....