DC wiring junction

[Kenton]

Jeff, just ignore this post but I do wish to make the point for the benefit of others who may be following.

 

While Miss Prism's diagram will work it does break the rules. It works because it adopts a lazy approach to the basic DC wiring rules that still works and so id probably just as valid. However, it is dangerous as it introduces the potential misunderstanding that you can "get away with" braking the rule in some circumstances. Although applying the rule (specifically every frog rail MUST be isolated) does lead to more isolators than you can get away with and more feeds duplicated, this is not necessarily a bad thing. The wiring diagram using the rules WILL work if followed - but so should Miss Prism's as so often with wiring there are many ways to "skin the cat".

 

I do keep stressing the approach to this job should be one piece of track at a time. No way should you be adding more than one pair of leads or one track component at a time. That way you can identify exactly where any problem lies immediately. It will be evident by either a short or no power where expected. Never try to build and wire something as complex as this and just expect it to work. It is tempting just to get on with it but a very methodical step by step approach pays dividends in the end.

 

If it is any consolation I also count 13 routes (though some may not be performed operationally) but by the time you get to testing the whole crossing you will have tested every step so should be confident that the final crossing works.

[Miss Prism]

On the original diagram you sent, and how long ago does that seems, the one showing the connections between the stock and switch rails you showed 6 pairs of double insulated joiners. I now see there are only 4 shown on the diagram you sent yesterday.

Ignore that original diagram: those '6 pairs' (one pair per turnout) showed a method of switching each turnout vee which you are not adopting, and do not need to adopt, because you are relying on the contacts built in to each turnout. Both diagrams showed an identical way of insulating the sections. (Turnout vee switching and section isolation are different, and can be treated separately.)

 

 

So to reiterate, on these 8 rails I use no insulated joiners at all?

Correct.

[GreenDiesel001]

Dear Kenton and Miss Prism.

 

I really am most gratful for your input.

 

The junction when isolated from the rest of the layout works fine, thank you Miss Prism.

 

However, when connected to the rest of the layout I continue to get shorts and although I can clear them it means I don't have power to other parts of the layout.

 

So, please can you tell me if I would be just as well to strip off all the wiring and begin again?

 

I just don't know where to begin to try to clear all my problems other than to start again?

 

I appreciate your comments about clearing one section of track at a time, Kenton, but I think what I am trying to do is beyond my capabilities. I don't want to compromise on the track layout as it follows Kings Lynn track work quite accurately.

 

Having 2 double junctions, yes Miss Prism there is another double junction just to the left of the one on the diagram, with diamond crossings and cross overs is all adding to my problems.

 

I believe I have over complicated the wiring but am not knowledgeable enough to know how to get the layout running.

 

Up until I had difficulties with the second junction, i.e. the one I have illustrated, I did have 90% of the layout running but now I am about 10% right.

 

Any further encouragement would be gratefully received.

 

Best regards,

 

Jeff

[Kenton]

So as I understand it the current position is that all track is down and wired.

 

The above junction in isolation works faultlessly.

 

As soon as you "connect" it to the rest of the layout everything goes wrong?

 

I doubt if everything is wrong as it worked before.

My fist guess would be that when connecting the "new" junction there is a crossed pair of wires - the problem is to identify which one.

 

Rather than go back and change all he wiring - not really a good idea/prospect - if you can start from the now working junction and instead of just adding the rest of the layout start moving out from the junction bringing one point inline at a time (ensure that only one at a time is made live) that should narrow the problem to a single point.

 

It is so difficult to trace these faults remotely.

 

You stated on the other topic that the plan had changed after the original one we worked on. Have you a new overall plan?

[GreenDiesel001]

Hi Kenton.

 

Thanks for your further reply.

 

It is so blooming frustrating. I have spent 7 hours today trying to track down a problem, and still no joy.

 

It does appear that it might be somewhere on my -VE common return because if I disconnect them, and test with my ohm meter the problem goes away.

 

Are there any rules with the common return please?

 

I don't want to keep troubling you and the forum because as you say I have wired the layout up somewhat unconventionally.

 

I really am shooting in the dark and of course the track layout is quite complicated.

 

I can't keep going the way I am but it is a fact the lot will go out soon.........

 

Thanks for your posts.

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[Kenton]

Are there any rules with the common return please?

Other than not connecting it directly to a feed - which is easier than you think on a big layout.

 

Keep persevering - I know I'm a broken record on the subject but "one step at a time" work from what does work and never add more than one piece of track at a time.

 

You will get there in the end - we all do - then wonder what all the fuss was about.

[Grovenor]

It seems you gave us an incomplete layout to design wiring for, which Miss Prism has done correctly. But none of us know what you have conected it to and how you have wired that.

So I would suggest you put the complete plan on here so the "correct" plan can be extended to cover the whole.

Regards

Keith

[GreenDiesel001]

Hi.

 

As mentioned I am taking the liberty of attaching a layout plan for which I am trying to obtain further assistance to DC wire it up.

 

I have not marked anything on it, i.e. feeds, insulated rail joiners, etc.

 

I do know where my insulated sections for locomotive holding are and they will not interfere with the actual wiring.

 

Any assistance given will be gratefully received.

 

I also haven't marked the sections. These basically comprise i) the engine shed section at the top of diagram 1, ii) the platforms up and down lines running through the middle, and iii) the section below the main line including the double slip on diagram 2.

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

Jeff Rippon

[Miss Prism]

Ok, Jeff - no problem. Diagram coming up. A couple of questions first though:

 

- At the C & D interface between your diagrams 2 and 3, are there 2 crossovers or just one?

 

- On diagram 3, below point D, what is the piece of track? Is it connected to something on diagram 2?

[GreenDiesel001]

Ok, Jeff - no problem. Diagram coming up. A couple of questions first though:

 

- At the C & D interface between your diagrams 2 and 3, are there 2 crossovers or just one?

 

- On diagram 3, below point D, what is the piece of track? Is it connected to something on diagram 2?

Hi.

 

My apologies.

 

I have messed up on the lines between diagram 2 and 3.

 

The lining up, if you use the C and D is incorrect.

 

If you align them so that the C in diagram 2 lines up with the D on diagram 3 that is how it should be.

 

Thus where I have shown a stop end on diagram 2 opposite diagrams 3's C this is a continous line and part of the main line leading to the first double junction.

 

Thus there are 2 cross-overs.

 

Hopefully that also answers your second point.

 

I don't seem to be helping my cause really do I?

 

Please let me know if you would like anything further adding.

 

At the moment I am open to a complete rewire to get it correct.

 

Your solution to my initial double junction enquiry was fine but I think I have just moved the problem along to another part of the layout wiring.

 

Regards,

 

Jeff

[Miss Prism]

Hope this is ok. I've assumed all your diamonds are insulfrog. The feed/section numbering corresponds to the previous part diagram, but you'll probably want to renumber them all into a better sequence. There could be an extra feed in the shed area on the other side of the shed crossover, but I haven't indicated it yet - it depends how you intend to work it and what space there is.

 

[GreenDiesel001]

Hi.

 

Just thought you would like to know I have spent the day altering all my wiring, replacing insulated rail joiners with nickel silver type and removing about 20 switches which I had on my previous set up.

 

I have been able to run some of it and so far so good. Thanks.

 

May I ask a couple of questions please?

 

1) The double slip is insulfrog type can it still be fed as you indicate please?

 

2) I understood with live frog points one had to put insulated rail joiners at the frog. Evidently this was wrong but is there a time when one would do this please?

 

Regards,

 

Jeff

[Miss Prism]

Good to hear progress is being made, Jeff.

 

For the double slip, yes the feed arrangement will apply, but I need to see the internal connections on the as-supplied item. Is there something on the Peco packet you can scan for me please? Concerning live-vee turnouts, there are about a dozen instances (your crossovers) in you paln where insulated rail joiners are required on at least one rail at the heel end of the turnout.

 

[GreenDiesel001]

Hi.

 

It is all down to this excellent site and the members thereof

 

Unfortunately I don't have an electrical diagram of the double slip but I will see what I can obtain from Peco.

 

I have been putting insulated rail joiners on every live frog so when I had finished my rewire yesterday, in addition to the switches I ended up with a load of joiners as well

 

Just so you don't think your input is a waste please find attached a photograph of my efforts to date (after nearly 60 years of trying).

 

The large building at the back of the picture is the East Anglian Hotel and the Pullmans to the left are for the Royal Train.

 

Thanks again.

 

Regards,

 

Jeff

[GreenDiesel001]

Hello Miss Prism.

 

I have just spotted a problem; not with your diagram but with how I am wiring it up.

 

All my returns are permanently wired to my bus. Which means when I change a point I get a short.

 

I can wire them through my DPDT switches. Is this what is normal please?

 

Regards,

 

Jeff

 

P.S. Probably a stupid question really

[Miss Prism]

All my returns are permanently wired to my bus.

That's ok with one controller.

 

Which means when I change a point I get a short.

It should mean nothing of that nature. Something is wrong. Do you get a short when you change any turnout or a particular turnout? Suggest turn off all your section switches, and then turn each one on one at a time, and test again. If you still get a short, disconnect all your returns from your bus and put them back one section at a time, testing each section and relevant turnouts as you go.

 

I can wire them through my DPDT switches. Is this what is normal please?

In itself, that won't solve the problem you have described.

[Grovenor]

That's ok with one controller.

Or even with many controllers, that is what is meant by 'common return wiring'.

if you are getting a short when you change a point and it is wired to Miss Prism's diagram above you probably missed out an insulated fishplate somewhere. everywhere there is a gap drawn you need an insulated fishplate in each rail. As Miss Prism suggests, just switch on one section at a time and look for the missing fishplate in any section where you get the short.

Regards

Keith

[GreenDiesel001]

Sorry Miss Prism but I have noticed an error on my diagrams

 

At the join of pages 2 and 3, and if one lines up the letter C on page 2 with D on page 3 there are 2 cross overs, one on each sheet.

 

The cross over on sheet 2 should have been drawn to the right of the cross over on sheet 3 and just before the first double junction.

 

With this in mind I have tried to add a feed between this cross over and the double junction.

 

However I appear to have a short.

 

Please would you confirm or otherwise that putting a feed here is correct as it will help me trace the fault.

 

Many thanks,

 

Jeff

[55F]

As an OAP also returning to the hobby with ambitions to build my dream layout (been collecting everything imaginable for donkey's years!) the problems being experienced by Green Diesel are understandable, if possibly frustrating to some. I consider that I am reasonably intelligent and can grasp most matters fairly quckly (except nuclear physics etc etc etc!!). However when it comes to model railway electrics all the booklets dvds etc which I have seen begin to lose me when they use terminology which has not been previously adequately explained.

 

I have read the whole of this thread in order to prove/disprove my understanding of model railway electrics and I have found it fascinating and useful, so if any of you more knowledgable guys are getting frustrated, be assured that you are providing some excellent advice. I am sure that Green Diesel is not the only beneficiary!

 

I do have just one related question, to which I have failed to find an aadequate answer (even in this thread). When you talk about modifying the peco electrofrog points, which I do understand, and switching the power as the point direction is switched, how is the power switched.........what kind of switch is used?.......Is the switch built into some of the point motors? Is it a separate switch which must be switched at the same time as the point direction is switched?

 

Hope I'm not diverting the thread away from the help being given to Green Diesel?

[Miss Prism]

Sorry Miss Prism but I have noticed an error on my diagrams

At the join of pages 2 and 3, and if one lines up the letter C on page 2 with D on page 3 there are 2 cross overs, one on each sheet.

The cross over on sheet 2 should have been drawn to the right of the cross over on sheet 3 and just before the first double junction.

 

Is this what you've got, Jeff? (I've had to add a new feed and an extra insulator pair accordingly, so you'll need to check it through again.)

 

[Miss Prism]

I do have just one related question, to which I have failed to find an aadequate answer (even in this thread). When you talk about modifying the peco electrofrog points, which I do understand, and switching the power as the point direction is switched, how is the power switched.........what kind of switch is used?.......Is the switch built into some of the point motors?

The switch can be a microswitch actuated by the turnout stretcher bar, or part of the point motor (perhaps the most common instance of where the switch will be), or part of the control panel turnout switching, or part of the signalling control circuitry.

 

Is it a separate switch which must be switched at the same time as the point direction is switched?

It is a separate switch. It doesn't have to operate at precisely the same instance or duration of time that the blades need to move over, but generally it would be crazy not to have a degree of contemporaneous operation.

[55F]

Thank you Miss Prism. Helpful.

[GreenDiesel001]

Hello.

 

Yes Miss Prism the diagram is not spot on.

 

I had already put in the new feed and insulated rail joiners, based on your previous data.

 

Unfortunately when I connect the common return of the new feed I have a short and have been trying for several hours to identify it.

 

I am going to check my points in case I have a faulty one.

 

I'll let you know how it goes.

 

Thanks to all those contributors.

 

Regards,

 

Jeff

[GreenDiesel001]

Hi Miss Prism and anyone else reading this post.

 

Now I have a pecularity that I wonder if you and any other forum member would comment on please?

 

Further time has been wasted trying to find a short that is preventing 100% electrical success.

 

To put it simply I am having problems with the second double junction diamond crossing, the one which was wired up sucessfully initially.

 

With the junction wired up correctly I have a problem which I can eleviate by disconnecting the common return wire on F2 above but this of course means I do not have a fully functioning layout but it does stop the short.

 

However as soon as I reconnect it the short appears.

 

In order to identify where the problem might be after several hours of experimenting with wires and bits of track I may have narrowed it down to the diamond crossing; I can't be sure however....

 

Now if I replace the diamond crossing with 2 seperate pieces of track to represent the diamond crossing everything appears fine, all tracks have power.

 

As soon as I replace these with the diamond crossing low and behold the fault reappears.

 

I have checked the diamond crossing for shorts and found none. I have installed a second spare diamond crossing and the problem is still there.

 

I am now at a complete loss as to how to cure this frustrating fault.

 

If anyone has any suggestions they would be most gratefully received.

 

The layout has been wired up in accordance with Miss Prisms diagram sent earlier today.

 

Thanks for reading this post.

 

Regards,

 

Jeff Rippon

[GreenDiesel001]

Hello.

 

Yes Miss Prism the diagram is not spot on.

 

I had already put in the new feed and insulated rail joiners, based on your previous data.

 

Unfortunately when I connect the common return of the new feed I have a short and have been trying for several hours to identify it.

 

I am going to check my points in case I have a faulty one.

 

I'll let you know how it goes.

 

Thanks to all those contributors.

 

Miss Prism, my apologies (again).

 

The post should have read "the diagram is now spot on"

 

Thanks,

 

Jeff

 

Regards,

 

Jeff