Miss Prism Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 To put it simply I am having problems with the second double junction diamond crossing, the one which was wired up sucessfully initially. Seems like something you did subsequent to it working successfully initially has introduced a fault. What have you got connected in the fiddle yards? As a temporary measure, I suggest you should isolate the following area completely from the rest of the layout and the fiddle yards, put temporary feeds in, and check that it works again: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 Hi Miss Prism. I believe I may have found the problem. It seems to be due to where the points are set. I will clarify the situation later and describe what is happening. Thanks for your suggestion. Best regards, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Jeff. If you had initially carried out 'best practice' when using live frog (Electrofrog) points and simply fitted two Insulated Rail Joiners (IRJs) onto the ends of all point frog Vee rails and then provided rail feeds after the IRJs where necessary, your shorting problems would most likely not exist! :rolleyes: Means a little more wiring and at times perhaps the use of isolating switches for some sections, but it works! Its quite possible this posting then wouldn't have gone to three pages? As you most likely wouldn't have the shorting problems Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 Hello Brian. Thank you for your post. In fact the layout was initially wired up exactly as you describe. However there were so many switches and lots of IRJ's that I felt it was causing me problems. Miss Prism provided a far simpler wiring diagram which meant I could dispense with about 20 switches and lots of IRJ's The difficulties I am having now are nothing to do with her diagram but more to do with me and my layout and lack of understanding of model railway electrics. I am about 99% of the way towards having a fully running layout without all the extraneous wires, switches etc. I will win through. Regards, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 If you had initially carried out 'best practice' when using live frog (Electrofrog) points and simply fitted two Insulated Rail Joiners (IRJs) onto the ends of all point frog Vee rails and then provided rail feeds after the IRJs where necessary, your shorting problems would most likely not exist! That's not 'best practice' its just lazy thinking. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Now if I replace the diamond crossing with 2 seperate pieces of track to represent the diamond crossing everything appears fine, all tracks have power. As soon as I replace these with the diamond crossing low and behold the fault reappears. This suggests that the internal wiring ofthe diamond is not what was assumed in the design. Do you have a multimeter with a resistance scale to check it? Or alternatively a battery and bulb? Referring to the attached diagram you should have continuity along each of the 4 rails through the crossing, ie rails 1-7-11, then 2-6-12, and 3-5-9 then 4-8-10. There must not be any continuity between 1 and 2, 3 and 4, 5 and 8, 6 and 7, 9 and 10 or 11 and 12. If there is continuity between 1 and 9, 2 and 3, 4 and 12, or 10 and 11 then your wiring diagram will need adjusting. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Hello. Well I think an update is needed and then perhaps this thread can be stopped before I get too much bad press. Miss Prism, the layout is working fine. All tracks are powered when they should be. I do still have one issue with a common return wire which, believe it or not, has been the source of my problems. If I connect one particular return to my common wire in my fiddleyard it is that which shows up the pecularity further back in the layout. This is not a problem as I just won't use that track. Keith, thanks for your post. I do have an AVO meter and a little gizmo for testing tracks, these have proved invaluable. As far as the diamond crossing is concerned as explained above just having that one common return wire attached was causing my problems further back in the layout. To all those members that have contributed to this thread I take my hat off. I will mention particularly Miss Prism and Kenton both of whom have the patience of Job. I can now get on with enjoying the rest of my layout building knowing that at least when I want to run it it will work. Best regards, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted March 15, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 15, 2011 Hello. Well I think an update is needed and then perhaps this thread can be stopped before I get too much bad press. Miss Prism, the layout is working fine. All tracks are powered when they should be. I do still have one issue with a common return wire which, believe it or not, has been the source of my problems. If I connect one particular return to my common wire in my fiddleyard it is that which shows up the pecularity further back in the layout. This is not a problem as I just won't use that track. Well that doesn't sound like an ideal solution. It will come back to haunt you at various times. Its far better to eliminate problems than just ignore them for now. Whereabouts on the track diagram is the rail with an apparantly 'wrong common'? Keith, thanks for your post. I do have an AVO meter and a little gizmo for testing tracks, these have proved invaluable. As far as the diamond crossing is concerned as explained above just having that one common return wire attached was causing my problems further back in the layout. To all those members that have contributed to this thread I take my hat off. I will mention particularly Miss Prism and Kenton both of whom have the patience of Job. I can now get on with enjoying the rest of my layout building knowing that at least when I want to run it it will work. Best regards, Jeff Jeff, you have done well to get as far as you have. Many people have great problems when a short occurs. Indeed many can't tell the difference between a short circuit & and an open circuit. Kevin Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 That's not 'best practice' its just lazy thinking. I do not agree at all! By fitting IRJs onto all Vee rails ends any chance of a short occurring from live frog points being switched ahead is totally removed. Therefore it is 'best practice' and certainly by no means is it lazy thinking, its so easy to do and works 100% every time by preventing shorts! As for "LAZY thinking" thats nothing short of an insult! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Sorry double posted Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Hello Kevin. Many thanks for your post. I understand what you are saying about not being a ideal solution but to get where I am has been difficult and frustrating. The particular problem occurs when I connect up my fiddle yards which are not shown on the diagrams. It is just one particular common wire. I'm pretty sure I shall find the problem as I enjoy running the rest of the layout. I don't think this thread should be continued with, for it could get out of hand. What with peoples own preferences and ego's. Suffice it to say that going the way of IRJ's on every frog, which I initially did, resulted in 27 switches compared with following Miss Prisms suggestions when I only have 11; and those 11 give me the same running enjoyment that the 27 might have done had I been able to sort it out. Many thanks again to all contributors. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 The particular problem occurs when I connect up my fiddle yards which are not shown on the diagrams. It is just one particular common wire. C'mon, Jeff. Let's finish this thing. Give a diagram of what you've got in the fiddle yard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 Hello Miss Prism. Thanks for your post. I really didn't want to trouble you again. I felt you and others had provided me with enough help that I didn't want to outstay my welcome. However, and I am grateful for the offer I attach a sheet showing the following. Unfortunately space is limited for a fiddleyard limiting me in most cases to 1 diesel locomotive and 2 or 3 coaches. The top diagram shows the arrangement as it is. You will see a plethora of IJR's again I have this on both sets of tracks. The second lower diagram shows a possible change I may make. The problem seems to be when I attach the common return on the lowest rail (marked ?)I have this strange phenomenom of a fault seemingly appearing further back along the layout. Disconnecting this wire clears the fault. Please feel free to comment on my fiddleyard design. Thank you once again. Regards, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 The problem seems to be when I attach the common return on the lowest rail (marked ?) I have this strange phenomenom of a fault seemingly appearing further back along the layout. Disconnecting this wire clears the fault. Thanks for the fiddle yard diagrams, Jeff. Before I comment on them, can you tell us a bit more about the above fault. When that common return wire is connected, do you get a controller short immediately, or does the short show only when you are trying to run a train to/from the fiddle yard? When you say "further back along the layout", could you amplify this please? And also, if you do not attach that common return, what tracks if any are there where you can't run things? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Hi Miss Prism. thanks for your post. Unfortunately I have taken the wiring out for the fiddleyard, only leaving the +ve wires which at the moment finish in a connector block. As far as the strange behavour of my trains is concerned it was difficult to actually nail down the fault. I ended up, with the help of your correct wiring diagram, to finally trace it to the fiddleyard. It was a strange fault as a locomotive could travel a few inches very slowly but the controller would then cut out. I also had my volt meter on it and it would read say 8 volts but when switched to the fault went down to about 2 volts and then the controller cut out. Each time I thought I had located it and dismantled points, diamond crossings etc it moved to another part of the layout. I managed, as I said, to narrow it down to an area between the double junctions and the fiddleyard and upon disconnecting all the f/y wires the fault disappeared. Sorry I can't help further. Regards, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Unfortunately I have taken the wiring out for the fiddleyard, only leaving the +ve wires which at the moment finish in a connector block. Ok, that's probably just as well, Jeff. Btw, have a good clean out of that connector block - the symptoms you describe for your fault could (and it is only a possibility) arise from some stray strands of connector wire that bridge gaps or connections/tagstrips etc. That type of fault can be tricky to identify. Another possibility is that the bit of wire you were using as the problematic return has inadvertently got some volts on it, so check that back through all its connectors/tagstrips etc. Below is a part diagram, showing the two fiddle yards and all the relevant sections feeding them. The fiddle yards show revised gaps compared to your sketches. You will not need extra gaps unless you are intentionally isolating part of a road. The only new feed required in each fiddle yard is marked with an asterisk. For the fiddle yard roads you numbered as 3 and 4, the return path will all derive from f2's return; therefore you do not need an extra return for those roads, other than a connection across the layout/fiddle yard boundary of course if a baseboard joint is involved. (Road 2 will return via the new asterisked feed, and Road 1 will return via f3 or f4.) In testing, turn off all your section switches, and make sure each IRL is actually isolating its two rails, and also check that each diamond is both connected and isolated correctly as per Keith's photoguide. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Hello Miss Prism. The good news is all the fiddle yard works fine, thanks. The not so good news is I have a short associated with the point leading towards the doubleslip. The main up is fine but if I change the point there is a problem. Are you able to offer a possible reason please or what I can do to try to narrow it down? Thanks in advance. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 The good news is all the fiddle yard works fine, thanks. That's good news, Jeff. The not so good news is I have a short associated with the point leading towards the doubleslip. Is this a new fault, or one not discovered previously when that part of the layout was working ok? I assume the turnout in question is the one marked in the diagram below. Does the short occur immediately you switch the turnout to the divergent road? Does the short depend on whether the double slip section feed is on or off? Suggest turn off all relevant section switches, and check all the IRLs ringed in the diagram below, in particular the two between the turnout and the double slip. On the feed for that section, check the return wiring path as you did with the fiddle yard problem, making sure it's not got stray volts on. Are you using miniature section switches? I enquire merely because it is all too easy when wiring on the tags of such small switches to get slivers of wire or stray bits of solder inadvertently between contacts. Check them thoroughly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 Hi Miss Prism. You and everyone else who has been following this thread will be very relieved to hear that everything now operates correctly. I had a feed that I mistakenly put in. Whence upon taking the feed away the whole of the layout can now be accessed. I am most grateful for your input, and everyone else who contributed, to help me and I promise I won't go DCC Best regards, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted March 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19, 2011 I promise I won't go DCC It's dead easy to go DCC now, just switch all your isolating switches on and make the whole thing live Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Hi Miss Prism. You and everyone else who has been following this thread will be very relieved to hear that everything now operates correctly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted March 20, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 20, 2011 Congratulations on your tenacity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 Hi. Thanks for your post Phil. I think it is more a question of stupidity!!!!!! I do find this forum to be very helpful although having to ask for assistance and picking someone else's brains doesn't come easy. The amount of time I wasted trying to wire up my layout and then having to find faults was really beginning to get me down to the point I looked at modelling something else The electrical wiring that Miss Prism suggested is far easier than others which may have their own advantages. I have learned a good deal and I believe fault finding now will be far easier as the layout is broken down into easily identifiable sections. However, my wiring still looks like a plate of spagetti Best regards, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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