GreenDiesel001 Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Hello. Hopefully below this is a scanned sketch of a double junction on my layout which is causing me a few headaches. I have marked up how I have wired it and where my feeds and insulated rail joiners are and on which rails. Please could a contributor advise me if I have something wrong which is causing me to have a short somewhere? Thanks, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 Re previous posting. Sorry the scan did not get attached. Hopefully it is below now. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Hi Assuming all the points and diamond crossing are live frog then you need more IRJs and rail feeds. The diamond crossing, if its electrofrog, needs IRJs fitted onto all frog rails and ideally IRJs on all rails. The you then need to switch the diamond frogs polarity somehow. Often done by the point(s) that lead into the diamond or use a toggle switch or if DCC use a Reverse loop module. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Many thanks for your reply Brian. I should have said, all the points are live frog but the diamond crossing is insulfrog. Could I trouble you to comment again please? Thanks, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted March 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2011 When the left hand point of the double junction ( bottom left) is set for straight ahead the frog will be the same ploarity as the curved stock rail. The frog is connected to one rail of the diamond the curved stock rail to the other therefore it will short the diamond. When the point is set to cross the diamond its okay you therefore need an inulation between the frog and the diamond even though the diamond is insulfrog. You will then need to jumper a feed across to the diamond. I hope this explanation helps you to understand what is occurring. A general rule with electrofrogs is you always isolate frog to frog connections and this would apply if one of them is electrofrg. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Hi Don. Thanks for your reply. This may sound a daft question but you are aware what you see is both an up and down track and not just a single track only my sketch isn't wholely clear. My apologies if it sound like "sucking eggs". So, the bottom left point will either run the train straight over the diamond crossing or take the train to the right curve? If it is going straight over the diamond crossing (it is currently isolated from the diamond crossing on both rails)that is where my problem lies? If I then isolate both rails coming from the top left point to the diamond crossing that will solve the problem? Please explain what is meant by a jumper wire across to the diamond crossing? Won't this negate the effect of the insulated joiner please? Regards, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Help required please? Re the scanned sketch. Sorry to ask again on this subject but I have spent the last 5 hours just trying to work out why I cannot get this to work on all roads. Please would a contributor look at the picture, ignore the feeds, insulated rail joiners etc and mark it up with the correct wiring, rail/track gaps etc. I have altered things around so much that the diagram bears no resemblance to how it is at present and still it doesn't work. Thanks. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Jeff - why do you think you need so many feeds? Also, are all the rails of an insulfrog diamond electrically isolated? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Firstly draw your plan out with both rails of each track drawn, then trace along each track and make sure that there is insulation between both rails for each route. Then check all possible parallel routes and make sure there is insulation between the right hand rail of the left hand track and the left hand rail of the right hand track. Do that for all possible routes and you will have it. when you compare the result to your drawing above you will see the missing insulation next to the diamond that Don W mentioned. NB Don was looking at the drawing as on this screen, hence his bottom left was not as you assumed when looking at the plan on paper, hence you thought he meant the trailing point when he actually meant the facing point. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Jeff - here's a 4-feed version (each switchable between two controllers, which is I assume your operating intention). Each turnout is wired identically, with switch blades bonded to stock rails, and the vee switched from the TOU/controlpanel/whatever. The individual rails of the diamond are merely bonded across, on my assumption that each rail is (as supplied) electrically isolated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted March 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2011 Sorry Jeff been busy all day. First things first as Grovenor says I was referring to bottom on the screen. I was aware it was double track. On the drawing on screen there is definately an insulation missing. A jumper is a piece of wire connecting two points. Rather than a new feed from the controller I would run a jumper from the left hand or straight stock rail to the left hand rail heading for the diamond just past the insulation gap I suggested. That means that whatever section was supplying the point would provide power to continue across the diamond. Don Not sure about Miss Prism's diagram I thought the obtuse or K crossing might be electrically connected. Could be wrong certainly if it was a slip it would be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 Jeff - why do you think you need so many feeds? Also, are all the rails of an insulfrog diamond electrically isolated? Hi, thank you for your replies. I shall study your later diagram however in the meantime would you please explain your comment about the number of feeds? Thanks, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 Jeff - here's a 4-feed version (each switchable between two controllers, which is I assume your operating intention). Each turnout is wired identically, with switch blades bonded to stock rails, and the vee switched from the TOU/controlpanel/whatever. The individual rails of the diamond are merely bonded across, on my assumption that each rail is (as supplied) electrically isolated. Hi again. Thank you for your reply. I am sure that to most people on the forum your diagram will appear obvious. However, I find it totally bewildering. May I re-affirm, the layout is DC. You show short links between the switch blabes and the stock rails. I do not have these relying on the small raised piece of metal that the switch blade touches. The blue and red wires, are they the ones on the crossover as supplied please? My layout is, at present, only wired up for a single controller. I tried wiring for 2 controllers but again I was totally out of my depth. You show a number of switches are these the ones between the controllers please? Or are they required anyway whether I have one controller or two please? You only have 4 feeds compared to my 6 shown. I am quite prepared to use your diagram and wonder if you would just reply to my questions as above please/. Thank you also to everyone who is contributing to this thread and my stupidity. Regards, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted March 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 8, 2011 Jeff, The links between the switch rails and stock rails coupled with the switches on each point and the isolation of the switch rails aren't necessary to make the trains run, however they negate the need to rely on the small raised piece of metal that the switch blade touches. These small contacts can get dirty and fail to make contact, so you have no supply to the switch rail and beyond. The red and blue connections around the diamond crossing are as fitted, otherwise the crossing wouldn't work. So, stripping all this away from Miss Prism's diagram, the main difference that I can see between yours and hers is that Miss Prism has included insulated breaks in both rails at certain locations, whereas you seem to have staggered your insulated breaks with feed and return breaks in different places. Because the tracks aren't labelled, it is difficult for me to explain where I think it might be failing, so bear with me while I try something. Assume the left hand track on your diagram to be the Down Main, and the first point you come to takes us onto the Down Branch, then over a trailing crossover. Essentially, those two points are facing each other, and you have only got a break in the common return rail. Now look at the crossover itself, and you have a break in both rails. Electricity doesn't care about the distances between facing points, and you'll note that Miss Prism has put breaks in both rails between the the Down Branch point and the trailing crossover on both the Branch and the Main Line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Jeff - why do you think you need so many feeds? This may be down to the way that I gave Jeff help with wiring up the layout in the other topic on his issues with wiring. "My" (not mine just the ones I adhere to) golden rules are: 1. Droppers from every point stock rail. 2. isolate every frog rail. I agree with Don that there is a missing isolation of that frog so it breaks the fundamental wiring rule. Also Miss Prism although your wiring diagram is spot on - it is very confusing as it includes switch rail bonding - a modification that we never quite got into with the original discussion - but you were not to know that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hi. Thank you everyone for your posts. Hi Kenton. I wasn't trying to go over your head in my enquiry. Following your previous help I now understand how live frog points work and their relationship to one another other. It's just that this double junction with is crossovers is causing me headaches. I will digest all the posts and see how it goes. Regards, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hi Jeff - it seems from Kenton's note there has been some previous in this discussion, and me wading in at the deep end might be causing some confusion. So apologies for that. First of all, can I assume you want to use two controllers? (It's not a much of a respectable double junction otherwise, is it?) My turnout wiring is merely the standard reliable way of supplying a particular polarity to the vee, and will prevent possible shorts if the backs of flanges touch open switchblades. This wiring requires an electrical break between each switch/point rail and their wing rails, and does need a changeover switch as indicated - commonly it is a microswitch actuated by the stretcher bar (the thing holding the switchblades), or it can be part of the turnout operating mechanism, or it can be part of the control panel switch you use to move the turnouts. (I do not know the physical makeup of your turnouts nor have any idea how you intend to operate your turnouts.) The turnout wiring and vee switching I indicated are completely independent of the controller wiring and the number of controllers. You can however ignore the turnout wiring completely if you want to and are happy with those awful raised pieces of metal that the switchblades touch. (Whose deficiency is noted by Phil.) Btw, apart from the main feed arrangements, the wiring I showed is applicable to DC or DCC. (Flangeback to switchblade shorting is actually more of a problem in DCC than it is in DC.) For the red and blue wires I indicated for the diamond, I do not know what if any wiring is present on the item you are using as supplied. Did the packet indicate what if any wiring was present or required? (I'm not familiar with insulfrog things.) It is possible that the diamond is already wired as supplied as I indicated in my diagram, in which case you do not need to do anything. I've shown 4 feeds. This is the minimum required, regardless of the number of controllers, and is also the maximum required, regardless of the number of controllers. I'll post some more diagrams later, but I need to switch over to PC mode to access MS Paint. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hi Jeff - it seems from Kenton's note there has been some previous in this discussion, and me wading in at the deep end might be causing some confusion. So apologies for that. First of all, can I assume you want to use two controllers? (It's not a much of a respectable double junction otherwise, is it?) My turnout wiring is merely the standard reliable way of supplying a particular polarity to the vee, and will prevent possible shorts if the backs of flanges touch open switchblades. This wiring requires an electrical break between each switch/point rail and their wing rails, and does need a changeover switch as indicated - commonly it is a microswitch actuated by the stretcher bar (the thing holding the switchblades), or it can be part of the turnout operating mechanism, or it can be part of the control panel switch you use to move the turnouts. (I do not know the physical makeup of your turnouts nor have any idea how you intend to operate your turnouts.) The turnout wiring and vee switching I indicated are completely independent of the controller wiring and the number of controllers. You can however ignore the turnout wiring completely if you want to and are happy with those awful raised pieces of metal that the switchblades touch. (Whose deficiency is noted by Phil.) Btw, apart from the main feed arrangements, the wiring I showed is applicable to DC or DCC. (Flangeback to switchblade shorting is actually more of a problem in DCC than it is in DC.) For the red and blue wires I indicated for the diamond, I do not know what if any wiring is present on the item you are using as supplied. Did the packet indicate what if any wiring was present or required? (I'm not familiar with insulfrog things.) It is possible that the diamond is already wired as supplied as I indicated in my diagram, in which case you do not need to do anything. I've shown 4 feeds. This is the minimum required, regardless of the number of controllers, and is also the maximum required, regardless of the number of controllers. I'll post some more diagrams later, but I need to switch over to PC mode to access MS Paint. Thank you for your supplementary reply. I was just getting down to follow your diagram when your latest message hit my screen so I have to ask some further questions. Just to reiterate the point, no pun intended, I am DC not DCC. One question did relate to the breaks you show in the switch/point rail. I do not have any of these, my points are straight forward Peco Livefrog type as tipped out of the box. The diamond crossing is also straight from the box except it is insulfrog and seems to be ready wired as your diagram. I will rely on that awful little raised piece of metal as I would not want to start to modify my points for fear of never getting then to go again. So if you will accept the crass nature of my layout can I simply wire it as you indicate but omit the links and switches between the switch rails and the wing rails and forget the gaps in the switch rails please? My points are at present hand operated. I shall be satisfied to get the layout just running with one controller please? Regards, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 One question did relate to the breaks you show in the switch/point rail. I do not have any of these, my points are straight forward Peco Livefrog type as tipped out of the box. Ignore those breaks and ignore the additional wire joining the switch rail to the stock rail. This is point modification (which some of us do but is not essential) and I am sure is just confusing you. Its importance is much higher in DCC than DC and so just forget it for now. You must, of course, provide a switched power to the frog. The insulfrog crossing requires no additional wiring under normal use with insulfrog points. But may require wiring when used with electrofrog points - this is due to the insulated joiners that must be used on every frog. I do not have one to check. I have the feeling that this crossing is causing the problem, as shown in Lisa's diagram it should be receiving power in isolation from only the point immediately to the right, it is effectively isolated from the other rails. When putting this crossing together I would start with that following point and the crossover, once sure that the crossover is receiving power I would add one point at a time and test test test. Do not try to put it all down and wire it up and expect it to all work at once. It is a quite complex junction. If you are still getting shorts the first check should be that the droppers are with their correct bus and then that the thrown point supplies to each frog are of the correct polarity. Checking and testing one step at a time is tedious as we all want to get on with running trains. But it is essential to be meticulous as it also helps to understand why things go wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Ok, Jeff. Here's all you need to do, and it applies whether you have one controller or two: On the left is the feed wiring for one controller. On the right is the feed wiring for two controllers. I expect you'll want to use the latter sooner rather than later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 Hi. Many thanks for your reply. I have fitted DPDT switches so should be able to bring a second controller in reasonably easily. Presumably it is just a question of duplicating the wiring once I have it up and running on a single controller. And with this in mind, just above your diagram of the system for wiring the switches for 2 controllers was another diagram illustrating my track layout. There were no other marking on this other than the feeds. Was that intentional please and do I follow your previous duagram please? Thanks, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 Hello. Well thats another 5 hours trying to sort out the wiring and still no real joy. Two questions please:- i) Am I correct in saying that there are no insulated rail joiners on any of the 8 rails that are part of the diamond crossing please and that there are only a total of 6 pairs of insulated joiners? ii) There are actually 13 different routes a locomotive can take. Is it actually possible to run a loco on all these routes please? I intend to isolate the whole junction from the rest of the layout to see if I can wire it correcly and get all 13 lines operating. Thanks Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted March 9, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2011 i) No insulated rail joiners for the diamond crossing, but I make it 4 pairs of insulated rail joiners from the latest diagram from Miss Prism ii) if there are 13 (I'll have to take your word for it), then all routes should work with the junction wired as per Miss Prism's diagram. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I have fitted DPDT switches so should be able to bring a second controller in reasonably easily. You will need DPDT centre-off switches so that you can not only select between controllers but also isolate any section(s). Presumably it is just a question of duplicating the wiring once I have it up and running on a single controller. No. Look at the two controller diagrams. In the single controller version, all the returns can be common. In the two-controller version, the return path is fed back to the controller controlling the particular section. This distinction is very important. And with this in mind, just above your diagram of the system for wiring the switches for 2 controllers was another diagram illustrating my track layout. There were no other marking on this other than the feeds. Look again. Both diagrams indicated the four places where you need to put insulating gaps in both rails. You do not need to incorporate any other insulating gaps. i) Am I correct in saying that there are no insulated rail joiners on any of the 8 rails that are part of the diamond crossing please and that there are only a total of 6 pairs of insulated joiners? I suspect you should find 12 rails that constitute the diamond. If it has only 8 rails, then my understanding of the electrical construction of that diamond is awry. I do not understand where your '6 pairs of insulated joiners' comes from. ii) There are actually 13 different routes a locomotive can take. Is it actually possible to run a loco on all these routes please? I haven't counted, but if you wire as per the diagram, you will be able to run a loco on any part of that layout. If it helps, think of the layout in the following way: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel001 Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Hi. Thank you again for your reply and your patience. I will just clarify the points I have made and your replies. My switches are "centre off". I understand your point about the second controller however I will concentrate on one only for the moment. On the original diagram you sent, and how long ago does that seems, the one showing the connections between the stock and switch rails you showed 6 pairs of double insulated joiners. I now see there are only 4 shown on the diagram you sent yesterday. I take your point about there being a total of 12 seperate rails on the diamond crossing. However, the 8 rails on the diamond crossing I referred to are the ones to which I will attach my other track work. I didn't take into account the other rails as they are within the crossing and electrically connected to their next running rail. So to reiterate, on these 8 rails I use no insulated joiners at all? I will now follow your latest diagram and thank you for your forbearance. Kind regards, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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