Chevetter Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Hello everyone, I could do with some help choosing an xmas present for my dad. He's building a 00 layout modelling the Midland region in the mid/late 50s. Last year for Xmas (he's taking a long time over building this layout) I got him a Hornby re-built Patriot, which he seemed to like and this year when Bachmann brought out The Royal Leicestershire Regiment I thought I was sorted. However last week I learned that the silly fool has gone and bought it for himself, so now I'm stuck! Instead of another loco (he has loads) I thought that I might get him some rolling stock for his Patriots to pull. I have surrupticiously questioned him about this and discovered that my options are: - Ex-LMS coaches, Maroon - BR Mk1 coaches, Maroon or Carmine+Cream - fast-fitted freight. I was thinking of getting him a rake of 5 coaches, but I have no idea about realistic formations which can be made from RTR products. Could anyone recommend one which a Patriot might pull in the mid-late 50s? (or is that too few coaches?) I found an article which said that in the Southern region the formation BSK SK CK SK BSK was used, but to be honest I'm having trouble translating this to the actual products themselves as they're not all clearly labelled BSK, CK, SK etc. I couldn't find any 5 coach formation information for the Midland region. Do the letters stand for: B = Brake S = Saloon C = Corridor? How about the K? Also could anyone enlighten me as to exactly what a fast-fitted freight is? I think this means that all the wagons had vacuum brakes on them, but what sort of wagons had these... or was it all wagons? Any links to pics etc. much appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help, Chevetter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chevetter Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 ...if you could help me out then you'll be making a fellow model railway enthusiast very happy. I'll even post up some pics of his layout for you when he's done Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Taz Posted November 17, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 17, 2009 Welcome to the forum Chevetter. I'm not a coaching expert but I can certainly give you pointers on selecting a rake of coaches that would be a good starting point to expand on for your dad. If you are looking for MK1 coaches buy Bachmann. They are much superior to the Hornby offerings. For your dad's chosen time period the most common livery would be maroon. This was introduced in 1956. Prior to that they were painted crimson and cream. This livery took a while to be completely replaced and you could still see the odd coach in crimson/cream into the early 60s. Mixed livery rakes were not uncommon. As for formation I would recommend something along the lines of BSK (Brake Corridor Second), SK (Corridor Second), SK, RMB (Restaurant Miniature Buffet), CK (Corridor Composite). This will give a rake that doesn't look out of place as is and will be a good basis to expand on. The only problem you may have is tracking down the models. Bachmann release in batches and maroon is a very popular choice and tends to sell out quite quickly. You may have to try several shops. Expect to pay ??18-??22 per coach. Hornby produce ex LMS coaches in BR maroon which are very good, if a little expensive at ??31 upwards. They produce BSK and SK coaches. I would avoid the all first as this was a relatively rare coach type in real life. If you get any of these you could do a straight swap with the equivalent MK1s suggested in the formation above and have a combined MK1 and ex LMS rake. Hope that helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chevetter Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 Hi Taz, thanks for the reply. So I can just mix and match between cream+crimson, maroon and ex-LMS to my heart's content? That certainly makes things a little easier. Would a complete matching rake look 'too perfect' or were mismatched rakes common but not the norm? I think I'll stick to all Bachmann Mk1s if possible since they're cheaper than both the Hornby coach types. Are these detailed enough to satisfy the average moddler? He certainly seemed happy with the Hornby 'Bunsen' (weathered edition) with all kinds of pipes etc. to stick on yourself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidBelcher Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Firstly, the abbreviations used for coaches; B is indeed brake, but K not C denotes a gangwayed coach with side-corridor (gangwayed stock without individual compartments and a centre corridor is coded O for open). C is used to denote a composite coach which has both 1st and 2nd class seats (1st class only is coded F, whilst S denotes a second class-only coach; prior to 1956 a T for third class was used instead of S). Catering coaches and sleeping cars have their own coding system which is a little more complex. Fast fitted freights - all wagons had vacuum brakes, and BR-owned vehicles used would have been those painted bauxite (brown) not grey. The only exception is refrigerated/insulated vans which were white (or pale blue??). Private-owner vehicles are a different matter as liveries were varied and no indication of the brake type (e.g. most ICI wagons were a dark greenish-blue regardless of braking), although tank wagons capable of running in such trains were branded with two six-pointed stars on the tank barrel (as per the old Airfix Esso tank kit). You could also perhaps add the odd vehicle more likely to have been seen in parcels or passenger train formations, e.g. horse boxes, milk tanks and 4-wheel parcels vans. Hope all of this is helpful. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Hi Chevetter, welcome to RMWeb Just to clarify/add a bit to what Taz has said. If your Dad's period is mid-late 50s then that's perfect for having both crimson/cream and maroon coaches, since the changeover to maroon was from 1956 and it took several years for all the repaints to go through. Less/un- likely is any coaches still in LMS livery - they would also have been repainted by then into the BR livery. You won't go far wrong with Bachmann Mk1s though, they are good models. Probably the top expresses would have been more likely to have all one livery or the other, but for semi-fasts and even excursions that would suit a shorter train you should be OK with mixing. Unlike the Southern (my area) where coaches were in fixed numbered sets, you could have a variety of typical formations that would be OK, although I'm not sure about a Restaurant car in a 5-coach train (if it's a basis for future expansion that's different of course). You could therefore swap Taz's Restaurant for an SO for instance (Second Open) to go with the BSK/SK/SK/CK, and/or swap one of the SKs for another BSK at the other end. HTH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Taz Posted November 17, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 17, 2009 Hi Taz, thanks for the reply. So I can just mix and match between cream+crimson, maroon and ex-LMS to my heart's content? That certainly makes things a little easier. Would a complete matching rake look 'too perfect' or were mismatched rakes common but not the norm? I think I'll stick to all Bachmann Mk1s if possible since they're cheaper than both the Hornby coach types. Are these detailed enough to satisfy the average moddler? He certainly seemed happy with the Hornby 'Bunsen' (weathered edition) with all kinds of pipes etc. to stick on yourself. You can just mix and match, although I would keep maroon in the majority. It often comes down to personnal choice whether to mix and match or not. Both all maroon or mixed crimson/cream and maroon would have been quite common in the late 50's. From what I have seen it would appear many modellers prefer the uniform look so maybe it would be safer to go down that path. Your dad can always get a crimson and cream coach at a later date to add to the rake. The Bachmann MK1s are excellent coaches. Some of the best that have ever been produced. They require no extra detailing. The only downside to them is the roof ribbing is more pronounced than on the originals and some modellers file these down flush. But they are streets ahead of the competition and are of comparable quality to your dad's locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chevetter Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 Hi Chaps, thanks for the further advice. I'm not sure about expansion as I am unsure if the finished layout will be large enough for massive great express trains. I also like the idea of adding in a wagon or pacels van. How about - BSK SK SK SO BSK Parcels van. I was thinking of a Bachamnn 34325B for the parcels van? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 I was thinking of a Bachamnn 34325B for the parcels van? Another very nice suitable vehicle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chevetter Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 Also, could anyone link me to a decent online photo resource of Patriots in service? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Another vehicle you could add for extra parcel traffic would be the forthcoming Hornby Stove-R. These 6-wheeled brake vehicles were often added to trains on an add-hoc basis where additional luggage space was required. They were also popular on milk trains as these ran at express speeds and so required a passenger-rated brake vehicle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Also, could anyone link me to a decent online photo resource of Patriots in service? There a re a few good pictures on flickr like and 'Bunsen' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Taz Posted November 17, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 17, 2009 Also try searching fotopic galleries. This one seems to have quite a few Patriots: http://steamingback....c1416959_1.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chevetter Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 Another vehicle you could add for extra parcel traffic would be the forthcoming Hornby Stove-R. These 6-wheeled brake vehicles were often added to trains on an add-hoc basis where additional luggage space was required. They were also popular on milk trains as these ran at express speeds and so required a passenger-rated brake vehicle. Wow those Stove-Rs look interesting. I read the thread on this forum on them and have emailed to register my interest. Thanks for the photos Craig. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidBelcher Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 There a re a few good pictures on flickr like and 'Bunsen' And one is also a pre-preservation era colour pic of "The Duke", to boot. Bonus!! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chevetter Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 Also try searching fotopic galleries. This one seems to have quite a few Patriots: http://steamingback....c1416959_1.html Excellent, thankyou. some good examples of Patriots pulling almost everything - all sorts of mixed rakes of coaches. Does this pic show BSK SK SK?: http://steamingback.fotopic.net/p48092796.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidBelcher Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Excellent, thankyou. some good examples of Patriots pulling almost everything - all sorts of mixed rakes of coaches. Does this pic show BSK SK SK?: http://steamingback.fotopic.net/p48092796.html Judging by the orientation of the roof vents (all on one side of the roof) they're side-corridor rather than open vehicles. No sign of 1s on the doors or 'sausage' window stickers - both of which can denote 1st class - either, so BSK/SK/SK seems a safe bet. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Excellent, thankyou. some good examples of Patriots pulling almost everything - all sorts of mixed rakes of coaches. Does this pic show BSK SK SK?: http://steamingback.fotopic.net/p48092796.html That appears to be the formation. Those coaches are all ex-LMS (not Mk1s) - the giveaway is the visible truss structure with the central battery boxes. Mk1s had the truss structure hidden further under the coach, and the double central battery box on one side only was a trademark of LMS coaches. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chevetter Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 Excellent. One more question - where does the parcels van go in this formation? Behind the loco or on the end of the train? Or would they simply run the engine around the train at either end of the line hence either. Could/did patriots run tender first? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyC Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Hi Chaps, thanks for the further advice. I'm not sure about expansion as I am unsure if the finished layout will be large enough for massive great express trains. I also like the idea of adding in a wagon or pacels van. How about - BSK SK SK SO BSK Parcels van. I was thinking of a Bachamnn 34325B for the parcels van? The only comment I would make about the above formation is there is no 1st class accomodation, which would be, I think, unlikely. I would substitute a CK [Corridor Composite] for the SO or one of the SKs. [Addition] The parcels van can go behind the loco or at the end of the train. Its position would depend on operating factors [eg added mid journey.] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 .....Do the letters stand for: B = Brake S = Saloon C = Corridor? How about the K? As far as I understand it (someone please correct me on this!): B = Brake C = Composite F = First K = Corridor O = Open RMB = Restaurant Mini Buffet S = Second T = Tourist Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chevetter Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 And I've just thought of another question: running numbers. I've seen a lot of Bachmann Mk1s with (MR) (WR) etc. on them, presumably to denote running numbers. Should I care about the numbers on the coaches that I buy or would the stock tend to get mixed up? If so, how do I know which coaches have MR running numbers if the advert doesn't say (MR) on it? Do parcels vans also have regionalised running numbers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Have you been able to get a copy of Keith Parkin's book on "BR Mk.1 Coaches" - very useful reference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chevetter Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 Have you been able to get a copy of Keith Parkin's book on "BR Mk.1 Coaches" - very useful reference. No, but I could get him that as part of his present I suppose.... although they do seem to be ??50 per copy! http://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Railways-Mark-1-Coaches/dp/1899816070/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258461205&sr=8-1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Excellent. One more question - where does the parcels van go in this formation? Behind the loco or on the end of the train? Or would they simply run the engine around the train at either end of the line hence either. Could/did patriots run tender first? The parcels van would likely be between the loco and the rest of the formation, but it would also depend on the type of the train and whether it dropped/picked up portions along its route. Patriots (and other big tender locos) usually avoided running tender first unless there was some pressing operational need. If you are interested in formations, this book is a good resource: Passenger Train Formations 1923-1983 : LMS-LM Region by Clive S. Carter The coaches would likely be MR numbered, but you could get coaches from other regions, especially on cross-country trains. You could also get pre-BR coaches from the other regions, again mostly on cross-country trains, so a maroon Gresley or the like wouldn't be completely out of place. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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