Eastwood Town - A tribute to Gordon's modelling.

[The Stationmaster]

Gordon I think I mentioned it in the past so apologies if that is the case but the US system of a splined road bed might be a way of doing it on curved track - example here -

 

http://www.trackplanning.com/splines.htm

[hayfield]

Gordon

 

Good evening, another thought is that places like B & Q sell wooden strip 6 mm, 9 mm and other thickness's of varying widths. The 6 & 9 mm are quite bendable and should be quite easy to fit to the risers and support the ply track bed through its length

[LNERGE]

Gordon I think I mentioned it in the past so apologies if that is the case but the US system of a splined road bed might be a way of doing it on curved track - example here -

 

http://www.trackplanning.com/splines.htm

Oooer with all those clamps it looks like a fair bit of energy is stored in that wood. I guess it must give up and take the form eventually?

[The Stationmaster]

Oooer with all those clamps it looks like a fair bit of energy is stored in that wood. I guess it must give up and take the form eventually?

It's quite a common form of track base construction in the US judging by what magazine articles have said over the years.  This probably because it is very suited to use with risers based on an L girder type structure and allows a lot of scenic flexibility.  I've never seen any comments about it springing apart but presumably they have some good wood glue!

[trustytrev]

Hellop Gordon,

                     Having consumed a nice bottle of Austrailian Shiraz(red)wine I came to the following conclusion.Is it possible you are chasing the impossible?I refer to your mention of the track being level/flat.Is it not the case railway engineers introduced suspension to locomotives and rolling stock because it was nessacary due to it being an impossible to produce perfectly level permanent way?Perhaps such a notion would result in unrealistic track?

trustytrev.

[Siberian Snooper]

Hi Gordon

 

On one of our club exhibition layout We put a 1inch deep vertical 4mm ply strip under the 4mm ply track bed after we noticed that the track bed was sagging during construction. we had no problems after that and said boards lasted around 20 years this included a period of storage in a steel container and several years in a clubroom with extremes of temperature and dampness. The only reason for disposal was a move to more clement premises which are smaller than the old one. A new layout is under construction using similar techniques which hopefully won't be subject to such extremes.

 

SS

[teaky]

Oooer with all those clamps it looks like a fair bit of energy is stored in that wood. I guess it must give up and take the form eventually?

A logical statement but there is plenty of bendy furniture around made from ply which suggests it should happily stay curved once the glue sets.

[jukebox]

Thanks for your comments as always.  I like the idea of drinking wine, but maybe that was my downfall last time.  The engineering aspects of layout building are hard enough when sober, let alone playing with large power tools that would take your hand off given a chance.

 

*snip*

 

As always I'd love to hear of any processes that can be used to construct a gradient that is true across a length of 12' or so, so please chip in….

 

 

 

Gordon

 

Not quite sure what problem you are trying to solve with your comment above about a 12' gradient - so will just offer the following.  If you buy yourself a small spirit level (sub 12") and attache it to a piece of 4x2, then cut some thin ply shims that you can glue under one end, you will create a spirit level that reads true for a given gradient.  At 1:100 you would need 3mm of ply over a 300mm length.  This can them be placed on your track work and the supports for the gradient adjusted until the bubble reads true, shifting it to an infinite variety of locations to ensure you have the slope smooth.

 

I used this, and risers held with G clamps till they were adjusted correctly, then screwed and glud, on Stockrington's storage track chutes.

 

Or is it something else you're trying to resolve?

 

Regards

 

Scott

[gordon s]

Thanks SS and others, that's a great help.  Using a strengthening rib in a T or L shape is something I have done many times.  The area once the gradient goes above 25mm or so is not an issue.  Do you leave the section below 25mm clearance or do you cut away the board supports to allow the 25mm rib below the board?  

 

I've been struggling with the side and hidden supports as the height is increasing or reducing as the gradient changes height over it's length.  At some stage or other you will need to cut those panels into a triangular section by 10mm over a 1 metre run for a 1:100 gradient.  The other alternative was to use short lengths of side walling, say 200mm and then stagger the base of those as you moved up the gradient.  You then have to hide the joins with support pillars, but possibly could be made to work.

 

To create the ramp itself, I did experiment once with three pieces of wood 1 metre long with the centre one off set by 10mm at one end.  This allowed you to place it on the trackbed and then use a spirit level to create the 1:100 gradient.  Of course that worked well on straight sections, but could not be used on a curve.

 

Clamping the ply makes no difference at all.  I'm starting with flat ply and clamping it to a flat surface.  The side rails are precision cut on a bench saw and the clamps just hold everything flat and in a natural position with no stress at all.

 

Chasing the impossible?  Not at all.  I'm not looking for flat to within a thou, but I do use Kadee couplings on stock and vertical movement of a few mm can easily lead to trains uncoupling.  My thoughts are that taking time at this stage to get it as flat as you can will pay dividends for years to come.  Cutting corners will only lead to frustration as wheels lose contact with the track and trains come apart as couplings ride over each over.  Of course nothing is ever perfect and looking at prototype track confirms that, but once you scale down the weight and size of locomotives etc, a mm here and there can make a huge difference.

 

Edit:  Hi Scott, our posts crossed over, hence my comment re the jig I made.

Edited October 19, 2014 by gordon s

[Siberian Snooper]

Hi Gordon

 

The only flat surface was the track bed everything else was open plan until infilled with polystyrene sheet.

 

SS

[gordon s]

Way back in the early 50's, my father bought my brother and I a secondhand Trix Twin loco and some bakelite track for Christmas.  Two 4 x 4 sheets of hardboard laid on the carpet meant the track could be laid in a figure of eight and we had hours of fun running that little 0-4-0 at breakneck speed for hours on end.  My father knocked up some platforms and a station building complete with access stairs from some hand tools and happiness knew no bounds.

 

Fast forward 60 years, the hobby has changed, we have the cash to buy bits and bobs plus a garage equipped with power tools to do most jobs and I'm looking forward to enjoying a similar level of enjoyment.  So what on earth is stopping me?…..

 

If I've made this board once, I must have had three attempts to get the track spacings correct, relative to each other and still maintain a 1:100 gradients for each of them.  The centre two going up and the outer two going down.  Simple's I say….

 

Templot is a wonderful tool in two dimensions, but add in the third plus the trackbed outlines in three dimensions and do you think I could get such a simple corner board correct?  Could I hell and I came close to throwing stuff across the room more than once…:-)

 

However, today is the day when I have finally cracked it and the lines are in the right place and the gradients are correct.  Thankfully this has been a huge learning curve/experience opportunity so the opposite corner should be just a fraction of the angst this one has created. 

 

You're absolutely right, Larry.  It's these cock ups that make us stronger and without fouling up a few times we'd never build a bloomin' thing.

 

Decided the difference between the early 50's and now is that we didn't understand or care about tolerances, flatness, precision woodwork and all the things we strive to achieve these days.  

 

Funny how they all get in the way on the journey to paradise…..  

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2014 by gordon s

[coachmann]

Way back in the early 50's, my father bought my brother and I a secondhand Trix Twin loco and some bakelite track for Christmas.  Two 4 x 4 sheets of hardboard laid on the carpet meant the track could be laid in a figure of eight and we had hours of fun running that little 0-4-0 at breakneck speed for hours on end.  My father knocked up some platforms and a station building complete with access stairs from some hand tools and happiness knew no bounds.

After several dismal starts since 2006, that simple oval we had as children seemed like a pretty good starting point...!  Like a young boy, I am starting with an oval and then adding bits as ideas come to mind. The period and location (Standedge) were determined 60-odd years ago so that bit demanded no thought. The simple 'trainset' is holding my interest simply because it is developing as it goes along rather than being built to a blueprint as if my life depended on it.  The trainset concept that we started out with as children still has a lot of mileage in it!

Edited October 28, 2014 by coachmann

[Siberian Snooper]

Hi Gordon

 

From my apprentice days, if you want the outside track to rise level with the inner track you need to fabricate a helix, like a spiral staircase. To achieve this the outer track needs to rise at a different rate. The way I was taught was to draw triangles. Your inner track is rising at 1 in 100, your outer will need to travel further, so the first thing to draw the inner track to the required radius at 1 to 1 for the required arc and divide into a number of segments, now draw the outer track and draw lines from the centre through your inner track segments to the outer track.

Now step in track the segments off on a horizontal line and mark the end, draw a vertical line equal to the amount of rise and draw the line to close the triangle, this will give you the length of board for the inner track and now repeat the exercise for the outer track.

This is a bit simplistic but I hope it gives you the basic idea.

 

If you would like a more detailed reply please pm me, and I will go on the pc to do drawing. I'm doing this on a tab.

[gordon s]

I'm following your progress regularly, Larry as you manage the problems that arise very well.  You're not afraid to pull the whole lot up and start again and I admire that.  This track plan is also a simple oval to get things running.  Fundamental elements of the second stage have been mapped out as it would be crazy not to think about the access points from the outer loops.  I see this as four separate dioramas, that are linked, but will allow the operator to watch trains go by as we did in our youth.  It may be a through station, an urban area or a country area, each with scenic breaks to hide one from the other, but each area will hopefully bring memories flooding back.

 

Thanks SS and that makes perfect sense.  One of the problems I had was once I had printed all the Templot templates out full size, I then had a flat plan. The first attempt was made by cutting each of the three sections in turn, but not from the single full sized plan.  This gave me three pieces, but somehow I screwed up on the spacing between the three bits and lost the horizontal alignment.  It wasn't until I overlaid a complete corner plan did I realise just how far out I had strayed.

 

At this point you have the choice of modifying the adjoining track plan or scrap it and start again.  Experience has shown me that to accept a mistake and then plan around it, is often just wasting good work after bad and weeks later, you will realise that was a poor decision.  So down it came.  

 

Attempt two was using a whole corner plan as outlined earlier with a full corner plan.  This was fine other than I set the cut line too wide  on the centre section and that meant the outer raised lines were too close to the planned retaining walls.  Down it came for a second time.

 

The third attempt took the flat plan, only this time I calculated the width of the tunnel face and the trackbed width required on the new board.  Some work down on my knees with a set of radius curves, allowed me to come up with a shape that followed neither the upper and lower track curves, but looked right.  Job done.

 

With regard to the gradients on the curve, I got a little confused about the geometry involved, but thanks to guys on here, laid that one to rest.  My early days were also spent on a drawing board before I went into sales, so I was able to grasp your explanation easily.  I'm glad you said that as eventually that was the route I chose.  The problem I have had with gradients in the past is maintaining a flat track bed over the length of the gradient.  I use shallow vertical curves at each end and then try to maintain a flat surface for the whole length between the vertical curves.  I have found in the past, bumps and hollows where the track bed is attached to the risers.  No problem on the straight pieces of track, but more of a problem on curves.  The best I could come up with was a 1m flexible rule, which does work, but you have to be careful to maintain the same plane when curving or you may introduce super elevation on curves.  So far so good….

 

I have now sketched out the other end and will be attacking that at the weekend providing golf doesn't get in the way.

 

Been cut to 16 now and 23 points on the front nine yesterday promised a lot.  Finished on 39, so life ain't all bad….:-)

Edited October 28, 2014 by gordon s

[Siberian Snooper]

Hi Gordon

 

i have found that if you get stuck on a problem a question on here will usually get an answer from the collective body of knowledge on here. Glad to have confirmed your method.

 

SS

[eldavo]

...Been cut to 16 now and 23 points on the front nine yesterday promised a lot.  Finished on 39, so life ain't all bad….:-)

About bloomin' time some might say. Good to see the progress.

 

Cheers

Dave (who has also been cut to 16 but who expects to be back at 17 by Monday afternoon!)

[gordon s]

Well it had to be done.  Remember this?….

 

 

It's now this...

 

 

 

Had to be done, but heartbreaking just the same.  I'll get over it…:-)

 

OK, some suggestions please.  Over the last four years I have produced over 100 hand built turnouts and complexes.  They are all pretty large with radii of between 3' and 8'.  None of them are standard as they have all been created to fit a Templot plan, but that's not to say they can't be used.  I can't use them again as the flowing trackwork created by Templot dictates they have to be tailor made to fit the plan.  If you have a flexible plan, then there is no reason why they can't be used again.

 

The early build ones are in 00 with wider check rail gaps, but the majority are in 00SF with 1mm check rail gaps and most, if not all stock will run through them.  Seems criminal to just dump them, so maybe a club would be interested.  Of course there is eBay, but I don't want to get involved in my pizza cutter wheels won't run through these...

 

They are all in code 75 and stock runs well through the later examples.

 

Like this...

 

 

I don't really want to deal with them one at a time, so if you know a club who might want them, let me know.  Seems a shame to just chuck them out, but I need the space and they are cluttering up the room.

 

 

[trisonic]

Thanks, G. You are a Gent!

 

Best, Pete.

[trustytrev]

Hello Gordon,

                   Could you not offer them in lots via ebay?Surely someone would be prepared to bid for them under such terms and if they are paying for postage/delivery you would see some return for your efforts.

I suppose it would be quite a challenge to divide them up into attractive package options but have seen more unlikly things sold succesfuly via ebay.

Regards

trustytrev.

[The Stationmaster]

Any single slips by any chance Gordon?

[hayfield]

For those who would use/want hand built track 00sf wont be a problem, the size of them possibly will be.  I would say just to get your money back Ebay and selling a few each week is the best route. The good news is that the Royal mail are charging small parcel price on medium parcel sizes. Also when I do send turnouts in the post I use a strip of hardboard with 2 pieces of strip wood stiffeners stuck to it.

 

On the other hand you may sell a few on here via this thread/the classifieds.  

[cheesysmith]

Put them in the classified here. I know I would buy 2 or 3, just to see if 00sf would work for me. I'm sure there would be others interested as well.

 

Or you could always donate one or two to the manufacturers like Heljan, just so they can check there models so we don't need to alter the b2b in future.

[gordon s]

Afternoon all…Starting to move into unknown territory, with the second corner board completed and about 1/3 of the layout completed.  Had a few minor mishaps, but the learning curve of the first corner has stood me in good stead for the second.  Fingers crossed, the gradients of 1:100 on all sets of lines have gone fairly well.  The centre two that pass through the tunnel/underpass are rising and the outer two descending at the same gradient.  This has proven to be a very good way of getting a 1:100 gradient in half the run distance.

 

All things being equal, the lines should all be at the same level on the next two corners which will be the approach/exit to Eastwood Town station.  No track is being laid at all at this stage, as I want to complete all the boards first and then take one loop at a time to run test trains and iron out any bugs before painting/wiring and ballasting.  This wasn't possible with the more complex designs of earlier versions and having learnt from that journey, all these boards are removable and will allow work to be completed in the middle of the room.  In actual fact as they are only 600mmm deep and stand further into the room, there is sufficient space to work on them in situ, but access on all sides makes any job so much easier.

 

Still thinking about retaining walls as they will step down as the gradient reduces.  The ones here are just for effect and are leftovers from earlier plans.

 

With any luck I hope to complete the next board in a few days as that has gentle curving track and no complexity at all other than the continuing gradient.

 

Never been this far before in terms of boards completed and I'm still smiling, so that has to be a bonus….

 

Wish I could work tidily though..

 

 

 

 

 

[45156]

Clearly, you and I have a different idea on what constitutes untidy work.

 

Looking great, so far, Gordon - keep it up, and keep us posted.

[The Great Bear]

 

Wish I could work tidily though..

 

 

??? Looks pristine to me!

 

Good that you're smiling!