RTR Pre-war Railway Vans

[DonB]

The availability of models of prewar vans(say 1923/38) seems to be a minefield to the uninitiated, like me.

I'm looking for perhaps a dozen or so models of vans, 2-axle and bogie, in appropriate livery, which might have graced the rails in the Midlands in 1937/38.

Being at the centre of the country, vans from all the Groups would have been present, so in theory there's masses to choose from, but where to start?

What is available RTR, new or S/hand? and which the most accurate? Do I just go for ones with, say, LMS or SR etc lettering and hope for the best?

I realise that underframe detail on RTR models is often a compromise or incorrect, but can be substituted or corrected.

Would "Ramsay's British Model Trains Catalogue" be a suitable reference?

This may be asking rather a lot, but any advice gratefully received.

[BernardTPM]

Three of the Big Four companies' vans are available R-T-R (basic box vans, 1930s period, that is).

Hornby and Dapol do/have done the Southern pattern with the distinctive roof and the standard GWR 10' w.b. while Bachmann have recently produced late LNER vans and, I believe, have done the GWR vans in the past. There isn't an R-T-R LMS van, but the Dapol/nee Airfix sliding door type is a post-war update of the LMS 1930 design and would pass muster (Bachmann do a similar one derived from the old Mainline model, but this is poorly proportioned). Other more specialise types have been produced such as various Fruit vans (GWR Fruit A & Fruit D & LNER) and Motor Car vans (GWR).

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

In theory, masses to choose from indeed; but in practise, relatively little available RTR, with a mighty unfortunateness dominating affairs.

 

Bogie vans, both Bachmann and Hornby have a version of the 50' BG available. Among a dozen vehicle selection on LMS rails, if a bogie van were to appear, this would be a probable candidate as it was a standard vehicle built in quantity. That might be 1 of the 12 accounted for.

 

Ordinary four wheel merchandise vans. There are GWR and Southern standard design vans in a variety of types available from both Bachmann and Hornby. If you are looking to have the van stock represent the national mix, then a maximum of 2 of the 12 would be drawn from these. Bachmann have recently brought out a selection of LNER design vans, (which would have been fairly new in service for your 1937/38 timeframe, so some can look near pristine) four of these. Then we come to LMS stock, the biggest group which contributed most vehicles to the pooled wagon fleet, and of which you should have at least five in the dozen to represent their preponderance. Bachmann have a model, and it is either seriously underscale for an LMS standard van, or based on an older Midland design, and noticeably smaller than the other group company vans. If you can find any second hand, Airfix made a good standard LMS van model.

 

(There's a complete rarity on offer in the form of a six-wheel Private Owner van from Hornby, often available in the 'Palethorpes' livery. This van was built in numbers that I believe would not trouble more than the fingers for counting purposes.)

 

For the many vans of pre-group design still running at your target date, and the considerable diversity in standard vans built by the groups, kit or scratch building will be required.

[bbishop]

Don,

 

There were very few bogie vans for your period and none of them would be "common user". They were used on specialist traffic, such as ex-GCR vans on the fish traffic.

 

About 20% of company wagon stock comprised vans; perhaps 75% were open wagons and the remaining 5% were odds and sods.

 

Some statistics, the beakdown between the four companies was approximately:

 

LMS - 44%

LNER - 33%

certain other railway - 17%

SR - 6%

 

The average life of vans was probably slightly longer than other wagons, so you can be confident that anything built in the 20th century would be extant in your period, and you could consider a 50% mix between pre- and post- grouping stock. With a repaint every seven years or so, it would be rare to see a wagon in pre-grouping livery after 1930. Finally, the four companies moved to small letters about 1937.

 

I model mainly in 7mm, so can't help with RTR. But have you considered building plastic kits? I'm constructing a batch of 4mm wagons for a friend, and am using Parkside Dundas, Coopercraft and Cambrian kits; and I believe Roger Chivers is also doing plastic kits. They are not difficult, perhaps a couple of evenings per kit, and there is a feeling of satisfaction when they are finished. Just remember they need to be about the same weight as RTR stock - add the lead before fitting the roof.

 

Bill

[BernardTPM]

Ratio also do some plastic kit vans. If you're not confident in getting the running gear right you could always mount the body on an R-T-R underframe. Dapol do sell them on their own in a variety of types, though you might get whole wagons cheaper secondhand from shows.

[Guest dilbert]

(There's a complete rarity on offer in the form of a six-wheel Private Owner van from Hornby, often available in the 'Palethorpes' livery. This van was built in numbers that I believe would not trouble more than the fingers for counting purposes.)

 

Thereagain what is the definition of a van ? The six wheeler you refer to was considered as coaching stock (in GW terms) rather than grey (freight stock) - the LMS built more than the two of these 6-whl vehicles than were issued by the GWR.

 

And there are the Siphons - vans or coaching stock ? Still nice models since the Hornby buy-out from Dapol - the oversight being the bogies (easily remedied) ... dilbert

[industrial]

Don,

 

There were very few bogie vans for your period and none of them would be "common user". They were used on specialist traffic, such as ex-GCR vans on the fish traffic.

 

About 20% of company wagon stock comprised vans; perhaps 75% were open wagons and the remaining 5% were odds and sods.

 

Some statistics, the beakdown between the four companies was approximately:

 

LMS - 44%

LNER - 33%

certain other railway - 17%

SR - 6%

 

The average life of vans was probably slightly longer than other wagons, so you can be confident that anything built in the 20th century would be extant in your period, and you could consider a 50% mix between pre- and post- grouping stock. With a repaint every seven years or so, it would be rare to see a wagon in pre-grouping livery after 1930. Finally, the four companies moved to small letters about 1937.

 

I model mainly in 7mm, so can't help with RTR. But have you considered building plastic kits? I'm constructing a batch of 4mm wagons for a friend, and am using Parkside Dundas, Coopercraft and Cambrian kits; and I believe Roger Chivers is also doing plastic kits. They are not difficult, perhaps a couple of evenings per kit, and there is a feeling of satisfaction when they are finished. Just remember they need to be about the same weight as RTR stock - add the lead before fitting the roof.

 

Bill

 

Don't forget the Big 4 only had approx 50% of all the wagons, and the PO had the other 50% as mainly coal wagons.

[industrial]

Ratio also do some plastic kit vans. If you're not confident in getting the running gear right you could always mount the body on an R-T-R underframe. Dapol do sell them on their own in a variety of types, though you might get whole wagons cheaper secondhand from shows.

 

If you can build the underframe kits all right, in a lot of cases the RTR wagons will look better on underframe kits.

[bbishop]

Don't forget the Big 4 only had approx 50% of all the wagons, and the PO had the other 50% as mainly coal wagons.

 

True, but mineral wagons were effectively a separate traffic flow until the pick up goods train stage. So my statistics actually exclude the mineral wagons owned by the pre-grouping companies, which is why they marginally disagree with other sources.

 

Bill

[BernardTPM]

If you can build the underframe kits all right, in a lot of cases the RTR wagons will look better on underframe kits.

I agree there, but an RTR underframe might take the fright factor out for some.

[DonB]

Thanks for the helpful replies. I knew about the wagon / van quantity split, and for the project in mind I am only considering vans. The time scale means that RTR would be the prefered route.

[hmrspaul]

This is an interesting request, in that the RTR companies were being criticised for not having sufficient 'modern' wagons to go with all of their 1990s locos.

 

But as others have discussed, they simply do not do much at all for pre WW2; the new LNER vans are OK - but as said are new in that period. Because of technology changes not much built before the turn of the 20C would have persisted. But there should be a good selection of pre-Grouping wagons and apart from the Hornby attempt at the Hull & Barnsley van I cannot think of any. I have abstracted a lot of age records for BR fleets from NRM records, and it is quite noticeable that there are periods in the depression of the late 1920s and early 1930 when not much stock was being built by the railway companies. So, old stuff persisted. What most of us think of as LMS, LNER and GWR vans are from the massive wartime productions. A lot of the older wagons would look unusually small.

 

There have been quite a lot available from the kit producers and some are probably not too difficult to construct quite quickly such as the Slaters range with Midland Railway vans and other plastic kits.

 

Basically, RTR is about BR in all its various incarnations (even the PO mineral wagons tend to be the large wagons of the later 1930s) and as for suitable coaches......

 

Paul Bartlett

[Pennine MC]

There have been quite a lot available from the kit producers and some are probably not too difficult to construct quite quickly such as the Slaters range with Midland Railway vans and other plastic kits.

 

From the experience I've had with them, I'd also pick out CooperCraft as pretty user-friendly, they have a fair range of pre-WW2 GWR van stock

[jwealleans]

I can't speak for the other prewar companies but on the LNER forum Graeme King has been working through a series of RTR vans making them much more prototypical. It's as much work, if not more, than kitbuilding.

 

The Hornby H & B van is one he's tackled and another interesting subject is the Hornby 'Wimpy'/'Bartello's Circus'/Refrigerated van which is based on an NE design and can also be modelled as downrated in the 1930s for fish traffic.

 

http://www.lner.info/forums/loco-workbench-many-done-but-time-for-a-break-van-or-two-t2443s645.html

[Fat Controller]

From the experience I've had with them, I'd also pick out CooperCraft as pretty user-friendly, they have a fair range of pre-WW2 GWR van stock

To which, add Cambrian for a selection of ex Midland and LMS stock- the latest models have one piece underframes, making assembly even easier.

http://www.cambrianmodels.co.uk/lmswagons.html

[Pennine MC]

I can't speak for the other prewar companies but on the LNER forum Graeme King has been working through a series of RTR vans making them much more prototypical. It's as much work, if not more, than kitbuilding.

 

The Hornby H & B van is one he's tackled and another interesting subject is the Hornby 'Wimpy'/'Bartello's Circus'/Refrigerated van which is based on an NE design and can also be modelled as downrated in the 1930s for fish traffic.

 

http://www.lner.info...-t2443s645.html

 

Looks an interesting read Jonathan, years ago I stuck one of the original issue H&B vans on a 'generic' wooden underframe with IIRC side steps. In its white 'N E' livery it made a characterful model, if not exactly a correct one. I also had the feeling the later Hornby van was to some degree authentic

[Adrian Wintle]

Thereagain what is the definition of a van ? The six wheeler you refer to was considered as coaching stock (in GW terms) rather than grey (freight stock) - the LMS built more than the two of these 6-whl vehicles than were issued by the GWR.

 

And there are the Siphons - vans or coaching stock ? Still nice models since the Hornby buy-out from Dapol - the oversight being the bogies (easily remedied) ... dilbert

 

The GWR 6w Palethorpes vans were coaching stock and were diagrammed to run in a specific train. The two vans ran from the Midlands (I forget exactly where) to Cardiff on alternate days (returning the second day).

 

The LMS built a bunch of broadly similar milk vans, but they were also NPCS (non-passenger coaching stock).

 

GWR Siphons were also NPCS, and were mostly diagrammed to run in passenger or parcels trains. I expect the 4w ones (no RTR model) would sometimes have gotten pressed into perishables trains, but they weren't really considered freight stock.

 

The CooperCraft GWR van kits are very nice, but do represent quite early prototypes (pre-WWI).

 

The Parkside Dundas larger GWR vans are also quite nice kits and are appropriate for the indicated period.

 

Adrian