Michael Delamar Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 more info here http://www.heritagerailway.co.uk/news/auf-wiedersehen-mallard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNCF stephen Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Reading this article made me wonder if there are any steam loco's that could beat that record? Could Tornado do it or is it not powerful enough? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike J Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Reading this article made me wonder if there are any steam loco's that could beat that record? Could Tornado do it or is it not powerful enough? The next issue of Steam Railway magazine will include a "Steam and speed" article that poses the question "Which locomotives could do the 'ton' today." That might give you a few pointers as to which, if any locomotives could challenge Mallards record. It is on sale from April 29th. I have spoken to a member of the Tornado crew while at the NRM and during a guided tour of the loco, the question of 'how fast is she?' came up. The informed answer was that the 100mph barrier should be attainable, but that the A1 design would not permit a speed anywhere near 126mph. Personally, I think the best bet to beat the record would be Sir Nigel Gresley, of the currently operational locomotives, as she seriously stood a good chance of getting near the record during the post war record run of 112mph on 23rd May 1959 before driver Bill Hoole was reigned in after asking "Are we going to do it? You've got two minutes to make up your minds!" Could she do it? Well, maybe. Should we try? I don't think so even if the right conditions were created. And we've turned this one over and over many times before. Edit;- BTW I think it's great that Mallard is flying the flag in Germany. Just make sure she comes back! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 ISTR the DB hold the steam record for this century, being the first to break the 100mph/160km/h barrier quite a while ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bayford Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 A original Merchant with 6ft 9 drivers would do 130+ mph Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shedmaster Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 So, erm, can I ask a dumb question then ? Why is it not being railed over to Germany via the tunnel ? I would have thought DB Schenker hauled this end, then Euro-Cargo Rail and then DB proper for the German bit, all under the DB banner, what a fantastic publicity opportunity to promote DB's specialist shipment capability ? Sorry, I don't know any overseas stuff, is it gauging issues or is 'Mallard' not fit for such a dead-haul journey ? Thanks, Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Dave it's a pretty long journey and an old steam loco would just get in the way I suspect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNCF stephen Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 So, erm, can I ask a dumb question then ? Why is it not being railed over to Germany via the tunnel ? I would have thought DB Schenker hauled this end, then Euro-Cargo Rail and then DB proper for the German bit, all under the DB banner, what a fantastic publicity opportunity to promote DB's specialist shipment capability ? Sorry, I don't know any overseas stuff, is it gauging issues or is 'Mallard' not fit for such a dead-haul journey ? Thanks, Dave I would imagine a lot of certification would be needed to sort out the travel through the tunnel. If you look at the other stock that runs through the tunnel it all requires a huge amount of paperwork. Although saying that I do remember reading about a class 150 that used the tunnel to get a rail festival in Germany. I believe that was in the very early days of the tunnel though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Ex-DR experimental Pacific 18.201 is certified for a limit of 180km/h (112mph), so could theoretically do the "ton". Having 7ft diameter driving wheels helps.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Ex-DR experimental Pacific 18.201 is certified for a limit of 180km/h (112mph), so could theoretically do the "ton". Having 7ft diameter driving wheels helps.... Yes, 7'7" is nearer the mark [compares with 6'8" for Mallard]. With a boiler rating 236 psi (16.3 bar) [250 psi] and 3 cylinders of 20" diameter [3 cyls, 18.5" ø], I'd say that the only things keeping 18-201 from challenging the steam record are the speed limit restriction (like certain German cars?) and then possibly a higher boiler pressure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike J Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Yes, 7'7" is nearer the mark [compares with 6'8" for Mallard]. With a boiler rating 236 psi (16.3 bar) [250 psi] and 3 cylinders of 20" diameter [3 cyls, 18.5" ø], I'd say that the only things keeping 18-201 from challenging the steam record are the speed limit restriction (like certain German cars?) and then possibly a higher boiler pressure. This locomotive surely would pose the greatest threat to Mallards record. Does anyone know if it has got anywhere near the permitted 112mph or is that just a theoretical figure rounded to 180 kph to allow for an occasional topping of 100 mph? In my earlier rather insular post I was only considering British locomotives. Serves me right! Edit;- 5th July 1995 on test 18-201 reached 112 mph. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 ......Edit;- 5th July 1995 on test 18-201 reached 112 mph. Those mad fellas at the old Reichsbahn testing laboratory (VES(M) Halle) weren't afraid to experiment with the leftover parts that they inherited. I suppose they did with steam engines what other people do with car engine conversions...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike J Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Those mad fellas at the old Reichsbahn testing laboratory (VES(M) Halle) weren't afraid to experiment with the leftover parts that they inherited. I suppose they did with steam engines what other people do with car engine conversions...... One thing I did notice is that it now has the tender from no. 44 468. eerily close to 4468 don't you think? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 One thing I did notice is that it now has the tender from no. 44 468. eerily close to 4468 don't you think? There's no accounting for (near-)coincidence! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted April 23, 2011 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 Is there any chance they could steam her while she is over there or is it oily rags in the smoke box? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 This locomotive surely would pose the greatest threat to Mallards record. Does anyone know if it has got anywhere near the permitted 112mph or is that just a theoretical figure rounded to 180 kph to allow for an occasional topping of 100 mph? In my earlier rather insular post I was only considering British locomotives. Serves me right! Edit;- 5th July 1995 on test 18-201 reached 112 mph. I'm probably not alone in hoping that Mallard's record will be kept sacrosanct, given that it was set during the Golden Age of steam traction and has remained for nearly three-quarters of a century. If the will existed, I'm sure that the Germans could take 18-201 near or near-abouts by risking running the boiler at higher pressure. Then again, for all its superb engineering, 18-201 doesn't represent the latest technological developments. The efforts of Chapelon, Porta and Wardale were primarily devoted to greater efficiencies than higher speed, but I'm certain that were they to be applied, then Mallard's record could be left trailing. Thankfully the proposed 5AT locomotive, if it ever gets built, seems to perpetuate the "mixed traffic" 4-6-0 concept (think Class 5/Modified Hall/B1) with greater efficiency, rather than a top link express which could challenge for the record. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Hopefully, Mallard will retain this record for all time but I'm sure that I have read recently that the Germans were going to 'try again', I believe with 05002! Now, reading this site: http://www.germansteam.co.uk/FastestLoco/fastestloco.html - it certainly looks as though the 05 could be capable but after all this time, could this loco still produce the sort of horsepower outputs that it did when built? BTW, I think the author of this site has either got some sort of rose tinted spectacles or is anti-English or something? Also, if it were to run on a section of NBS for example, then that would not be an equal test! It seems that back in 1936, 05002 had a lighter train than Mallard although it did not suffer any damage, to be fair! Going back to the context of those times, there was an awful lot of national prestige to be had in having "The fastest train in the world" and the Germans had the opportunity to push the 05 into beating Mallard before war broke out, yet they didn't. Why? As I say, I hope Mallard keeps her record for eternity but if she doesn't, we all know that she achieved her record when it really meant something, when she was at the cutting edge of technology! Cheers, John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 the Germans had the opportunity to push the 05 into beating Mallard before war broke out, yet they didn't. Why? I'm going back to a subject which was a core part of my A Level History with prestige and the Third Reich! The question of why is an interesting one - given the establishment's love of going for bigger and better, Speer's designs for future cities being a wonderful example, I'm surprised they didn't try to push this one. I think it would certainly have been worth them trying - wonderful propaganda material too! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike J Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Hopefully, Mallard will retain this record for all time but I'm sure that I have read recently that the Germans were going to 'try again', I believe with 05002! Now, reading this site: http://www.germanste...astestloco.html - it certainly looks as though the 05 could be capable but after all this time, could this loco still produce the sort of horsepower outputs that it did when built? BTW, I think the author of this site has either got some sort of rose tinted spectacles or is anti-English or something? I've read this persons views before, and while I don't doubt his knowledge on the subject, it does seem that his main objective is to re-write history by arguing that the German loco was the faster due to the fact that the claimed 124.5 mph was achieved over a greater distance and level ground and that it didn't break itself in the process. Whatever his views are, the facts cannot be changed. Mallard achieved an absolute maximum of 126 mph as measured by the standard technology of the day. We can't go back and apply GPS technology, and have to content ourselves with the accuracies of the times just as the old athletics records etc. were taken as authentic world records when set. There were no set requirements for railway records (unlike the landspeed records set using cars). You could set your record with as longer or shorter train as you wanted, on the flat or with as much downhill assistance as required. The facts are that the LNER achieved the worlds fastest authenticated speed for steam with Mallard on the 3rd July 1938 of 126 mph. Even though Gresley himself claimed 'only' 125 mph, it still beats the German claim of 124.5 mph. Get over it man! Small rant over. Back to subject. I'm sure that the Germans will look at Mallard with due reverence! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Hopefully, Mallard will retain this record for all time but I'm sure that I have read recently that the Germans were going to 'try again', I believe with 05002! Now, reading this site: http://www.germansteam.co.uk/FastestLoco/fastestloco.html - it certainly looks as though the 05 could be capable but after all this time, could this loco still produce the sort of horsepower outputs that it did when built? BTW, I think the author of this site has either got some sort of rose tinted spectacles or is anti-English or something? Also, if it were to run on a section of NBS for example, then that would not be an equal test! It seems that back in 1936, 05002 had a lighter train than Mallard although it did not suffer any damage, to be fair! Going back to the context of those times, there was an awful lot of national prestige to be had in having "The fastest train in the world" and the Germans had the opportunity to push the 05 into beating Mallard before war broke out, yet they didn't. Why? As I say, I hope Mallard keeps her record for eternity but if she doesn't, we all know that she achieved her record when it really meant something, when she was at the cutting edge of technology! Cheers, John E. It would indeed be impressive if they used 05002 as its been scrapped and they'd have to build a new one! I think that site is a rather well thought through argument to be honest, the Germans engines certainly ran at higher speeds as a atter of course and not a one off. I'd think Mallard's extra tail load would have been quite useful considering it was going down hill with a bit of helpful gravity.. Lets hope the Germans don't go putting the gradient profiles next to them eh . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 I'm going back to a subject which was a core part of my A Level History with prestige and the Third Reich! The question of why is an interesting one - given the establishment's love of going for bigger and better, Speer's designs for future cities being a wonderful example, I'm surprised they didn't try to push this one. I think it would certainly have been worth them trying - wonderful propaganda material too! Good points, I suspect that there were plans that never prevailed because of the intervention of the war. A similar situation prevented the E19 class of electrics from testing at 225km/h (which I think would have set a pre-war record). So the will was there, but never triumphed. Erm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hamblin Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 I recall from one of the books on Mallard that Sir Nigel Gresley thought that higher speeds were possible and another run had to be abandoned because of WW2. Even 4468's driver that day thought 130mph was possible. Regards, Dan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike J Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 The 15 mph temporary speed restriction north of Grantham did not give the ideal launch up the bank to Stoke Summit, so with a better start to the climb and a higher speed over the top Mallard might have reached a higher speed, but we're into 'might have beens'. Joe Duddington, Bill Hoole, Ted Hailstone and Gresley himself are all on record as having said that the A4s were capable of exceeding 130 mph. Better watch that middle big end though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 It would indeed be impressive if they used 05002 as its been scrapped and they'd have to build a new one! Well spotted, Craig! My apologies, all - I got carried away there, evidently I meant to say 05001! Either 05001 if it's still capable of running or 18201 which is capable of running and is actually the fastest steam locomotive this century but - if they could beat Mallard, so what? Mallard achieved the record back when steam technology was more or less at it's zenith, when speed meant everything and a nations pride was at stake. Today, electric trains have held the speed records since the 1950's and for the past 30 years or so, it's been France v Japan rather than Britian v Germany!!!!! So, let Mallard fly the flag for us - she'll do us proud and no-one can take that away from her! Cheers, John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted April 24, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 24, 2011 Nobody has mentioned a Stanier Coronation as a possible Mallard beater, similar sized wheels (actually 0.5" bigger) free running and more horsepower could mean a top speed at least on a par with Mallard on the same track. How about DOG? definitely has the horsepower and is supposed to be pretty free running. There were other locos around the world that might have been faster than Mallard but were never timed officially, such as the Milwaukee Road F7, which supposedly attained 120mph on a regular basis on level track and had attained 125mph but was not authenticated. Incidentally they had 7 foot driving wheels and 300psi boilers with just two large cylinders they developed 3000hp. As an aside Riddles 9Fs have travelled with a wheel rotation speed greater than Mallard's at 126mph! EDIT this can't be true as it would mean a 9F at 98mph and I don't think one went that fast. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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