Colin parks Posted May 8, 2011 Author Share Posted May 8, 2011 The Dogfish has had its handrails fitted. I can see a bit of straightening up to do! The three shute-operating handwheels have been thinned too. Looking through my stock of unmade kits, I found four Parkside 12ft wb steel chassis. These wagons are destined to become unfitted Grampus wagons, bringing the total number of Grampus to nineteen. That should be enough of those! I have cut the plastic tie-bars off and changed them for 0.5mm brass wire. The tie-bars should be flat section of course, but it really is hard to spot the difference when painted, plus the wire locates neatly into holes drilled in the side of the W-irons. I should add that the floors are too narrow for the body mouldings and will be widened with a strip of .020" platsicard either side. It is much easier to add the brake gear to a plain floor than use the one in the Parkside Grampus kit with all the chassis members. I have used Hornby wheels, which will have their flanges reduced - Hornby seem to have changed over to using narrower wheels with deeper flanges. At £4.10 for ten axles, it's a cheap way of doing things. If you're prepared to tackle the flanges and paint the wheel faces with track grime, they turn out quite nicely. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted May 8, 2011 Author Share Posted May 8, 2011 Precision engineers look away now! Flange turning for the bodger: The picture shows how the Hornby and Bachmann wheels have had their flanges reduced to 13.8mm diameter (and this only works for three-hole wheels). The axle is held in the lathe chuck but with a steel pin inserted through one hole of the wheel and between the chuck jaws. The pin prevents the wheel slipping on the axle when the flange is being turned. The outer axle is held steady in a brass rod with a hole to locate the pin-point end. I used a parting-off tool for this process because skimming the flange from right to left would have risked moving its position on the axle. The flanges have been rounded off with a needle file (more gasps off horror from precision engineers). By using this method, fourteen axles were dealt with in 45 mins. I decided to measure various wheels for comparison, all are three-hole 12mmm diameter: Hornby wheels are 2.6mm wide over tread and flange. Bachmann are 2.7mm. Romford turned brass wheels vary between 2.5mm - 2.7mm wide and have a diameter over the flange of 13.5mm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted May 22, 2011 Author Share Posted May 22, 2011 The first wagons have now been painted and lettered, including the extra Dogfish. The bauxite liveried wagons are Bachmann, the other open wagon is by Parkside. There is still some weathering to do and a few chalk marks to add. Eight more to go, mostly wooden bodied types. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gwinnett Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Very nice indeed. Can I make one tiny suggestion? The shochood would look even better with the inner edges of the doors drawn on. Even a pencil line might do the trick? Sorry, 'cos I don't want to sound critical - your work is, as ever, an inspiration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted May 23, 2011 Author Share Posted May 23, 2011 Very nice indeed. Can I make one tiny suggestion? The shochood would look even better with the inner edges of the doors drawn on. Even a pencil line might do the trick? Sorry, 'cos I don't want to sound critical - your work is, as ever, an inspiration. Thanks for the obsevation Jon. I had been thinking of how to improve the shock wagon interior. The way the planking has been moulded makes it very difficult to add any detail. I might try some very careful vertical cuts with a sharp knife to represent the door openings. I wish now I had used a kit for this wagon type, as the sides of this RTR model are also rather thick. The whole train is going to be modelled as loaded when I have all the wagons completed, so a lot of the interior will disappear. I have a bag of carefully dried soil (from Sussex!) which will be mixed with grey N-gauge granite ballast to represent spoil. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gwinnett Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 If you want scored lines, do you have an Olfa cutter (or the tamiya equivalent?) The hooked end of those might make it easier to get in to the bottom/side joint to start with, and because it removes a tiny triangular groove one pass would probably be enough. I think it only needs a suggestion of something to fool the eye. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted May 23, 2011 Author Share Posted May 23, 2011 If you want scored lines, do you have an Olfa cutter (or the tamiya equivalent?) The hooked end of those might make it easier to get in to the bottom/side joint to start with, and because it removes a tiny triangular groove one pass would probably be enough. I think it only needs a suggestion of something to fool the eye. Hi Jon, I don't have one of those cutters. My weapon of choice for most things is a Stanley knife blade. But you would be right in saying that groove rather than a cut is needed. Oh, if only I hadn't been so lazy in buying the RTR version of this wagon just to save on lettering and having to paint the white stripes. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gwinnett Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Have a go with the pencil line first - I saw it done on an old Airfix plane that had raised panel lines. The chap had scraped these off and just ruled a pencil line on. Quick spritz with matt varnish and Robert was his mother's brother. But heck, I doubt any of us would notice at more than 6 inches distance anyway - we'd be too busy enjoying the atmosphere of the whole layout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 A start has been made on the Dia. 1375 (edited due to wrong number being quoted!) opens. Well, just to get going, the first will be an LNER/SR one. Most of these wagons seem to have been fitted with Oleo buffers when converted to vacuum brakes, or at some time thereafter. The basic Parkside PC25 kit has RCH buffers. To represent the Oleo type of buffer, I decided to experiment. Using a pin vice/chuck gripping the buffer body, the shank was carefully ground away for half its length. By gradually tightening the jaws of the pin vice, the correct looking shank was arrived at. It's not an exact science, but when the buffer head is fitted, it will be a passable representation. The webs on the side of the buffer bodies have been filed down to the correct angle since this photo. There seem to be variations on these wagon which are quite easy to reproduce, inculding: split axle boxes or Kooler, Oleo or long RCH buffers, clasp or Morton vacuum brakes and the number of rivets on the corner plates. Quite a lot of permutations for five wagons, perhaps I'll have to make some more! Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 It's a cracking pastime Parkside wagon butchery. I'm going to attempt a couple of steel bodied shock opens in the series DB720xxx using PC1A bodies and the underframes from the PC28 timber shock open kit. The corrugated ends from these will go to make 2 semi-scratchbuilt DACE opens. That SR 2-HAP is just sublime......... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Hi Jon, I don't have one of those cutters. My weapon of choice for most things is a Stanley knife blade. But you would be right in saying that groove rather than a cut is needed. I've put a suggestion of the door shuts on at least some of my Airfix 5-plankers, it was a while ago but I'm sure I'd have used a (small ) knife, building up the cut with each pass. Jon's pencil suggestion might be worth a try though There seem to be variations on these wagon which are quite easy to reproduce, inculding: split axle boxes or Kooler, Oleo or long RCH buffers, clasp or Morton vacuum brakes and the number of rivets on the corner plates. Quite a lot of permutations for five wagons, perhaps I'll have to make some more! I think I've said before that all 5-plankers are much of a muchness, but when it comes to the minor variations the devil really is in the detail. Buffer variations are a particular obsession of mine; for a wagon VB'd in the late 50s you could have Oleos, Dowtys, the big self-contained type as seen here, the original ribbed buffers with collars, or replacement 20" ribbed ones As an aside, the SR vac brakegear with the drop link (fitted to a few SR 5-plankers) is reproduceable using a Red Panda chassis, I did that on a Ratio van Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 snip There are so many possibilties for forming trains with ex-revenue wagons that one train might not be enough (I am limited on my layout to a train length of ten 10ft wb wagons plus brake van). As you spent so much time 'around the sidings', would you be able to say if the spoil trains were generally formed of groups of very similar wagons? It does seem, from looking through your photos, as though the Southern Region at least, kept thier departmental wagons grouped by capacity and and/or type. Colin Colin can I say how much I have enjoyed following the development of Newhaven. As regards the formation of spoil trains, I don't have first hand knowledge of workings in your area, but I agree that Pauls pictures often show wagons of similar type coupled either side of the subject wagon, and your thoughts on SR practice seem correct. I observed the formation of spoil trains during my time on BR, mostly the Bristol Division of the WR, from the mid 70s through to the end of BR and agree that usually spoil trains were formed of wagons of similar capacity/brake force/running speed, although not kept in fixed sets. If you wanted enough wagons to form a second train how about forming one train with broadly similar vehicles, then forming the second set from odds and ends? At times of the year when there was a heavy ballast programme any suitable vehicle was pressed into service to make up the numbers, including superannuated vehicles of lower capacity. Another thought, was there a cripple siding at Newhaven that collected defective wagons, which would then have been shunted out every week or so? Where did the spoil come from? Direct from engineering sites, or forwarded by Three Bridges or Tonbridge Yard? Perhaps Three Bridges or Tonbridge would have periodically formed up a train of repaired cripple spoil wagons, or traffic that had been blocked in, or overloaded to make up a train which would have been a more mixed make up. Sorry for the waffle, thinking out loud really! cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 An interesting post from Rivercider - thanks. I remember going to the yard at Bristol East. Did you work there at all? We used to go there to get information on engineer's when I was with Cambrian Models in the 80's. I remember being there one day looking for a Shark to measure. They were fly-shunting Salmon wagons - they made quite a bang as they hit stationary wagons, even though the speeds were quite low. We found a Shark - just as well, the BR GA drawing was wrong on some dimensions! As for the Southern Division, I don't recall a cripple siding at Newhaven but there were wagons scrapped there in the sixties and prossibly into the 70's. I hadn't considered the running performance of wagons as being a factor, but now you say it, it makes sense that trains would consist of similar types. The in the picture of the train I am modelling all stock seems to be fitted, which makes sense. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 A photo of the first of the opens. This one is destined to become DE313026, a Dia. 210 wagon. Yes, me making an LNER wagon - who'd have thought it?! It ran on the Southern Region in the seventies. From the basic kit, various details have been added, including: Oleo buffers, angled headstocks, and other bits added from plastic or brass. The round section tie-rod is my standard dodge- better than a thick plastic one. Ok, not as good as an etched flat one! Looking back to an article by Pennine MC, I note that he fitted capping on the tops of the sides of a pipe wagon. How did he do that?! It looks great. These wagon had that feature, but how to do it to scale? Hmm.... On reflection, the buffer heads look a little thick, might have to find a source of metal heads for the Oleo pattern. The coupling hook looks rather gross too. I fit this kind to all the wagons for uniformity -a throw-back to the early days when I used three link couplings. They didn't work with 3 ft curves. The Hornby wheels are pre-painted with track grime and have the turned-down flanges. I quite like the steely look of the treads. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gwinnett Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Evergreen strip might do the trick for the capping. the clips could be brass fret or just wee slivers of strip on either side. I think Evergreen do 10" by 20", or .25 mm by .5 mm- it would be over-scale, but would people notice? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerrynick Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 As ever, superb workmanship...I'll have to up my own standards somewhat, particularly having seen your efforts with the SR 15 ton brake. MJT should be able to supply buffer heads....in fact, almost any type of buffer. Filthy lathe, though ! gerrynick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I remember going to the yard at Bristol East. Did you work there at all? We used to go there to get information on engineer's when I was with Cambrian Models in the 80's. I remember being there one day looking for a Shark to measure. They were fly-shunting Salmon wagons - they made quite a bang as they hit stationary wagons, even though the speeds were quite low. We found a Shark - just as well, the BR GA drawing was wrong on some dimensions! As for the Southern Division, I don't recall a cripple siding at Newhaven but there were wagons scrapped there in the sixties and prossibly into the 70's. I hadn't considered the running performance of wagons as being a factor, but now you say it, it makes sense that trains would consist of similar types. The in the picture of the train I am modelling all stock seems to be fitted, which makes sense. Colin Colin, no I did not work at Bristol East Depot, but it was one of the yards I was thinking of when trying to work out a plausible excuse for you to run a second spoil train that would be a bit different. It was a busy yard at times as you may remember, Tom Kelly the supervisor with his pipe, and Len Ryan the TOPS numbertaker/checker are two names I remember. I worked in Bristol TOPS, we used to send them details of the incoming trains, and prepare TOPS Trainlists for their departures. On a busy weekend they sometimes had 12 or 14 departures from late Saturday PM to Sunday lunchtime. The spoil trips to Stoke Gifford Tip would be full trains off weekend working sites on Monday Tuesday and Wednesday, by Thursday or Friday the spoil trips would be shorter trains made up of stragglers left behind from earlier in the week, that was the sort of working I wondered might happen to Newhaven. DE313026 is coming along nicely cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Hope its ok to post this here. A photo I've bandied around online before for other reasons - from the JJ Smith archive at the Bluebell: Image here Crossing the bridge at Southerham on its way to Newhaven some ten years before your time but the same type of train and wagons - even has a Shark up front. I'll never get away with a bag full of those old Airfix and GMR opens now you've opened this can of worms for me... Raphael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Looking back to an article by Pennine MC, I note that he fitted capping on the tops of the sides of a pipe wagon. How did he do that?! It looks great. These wagon had that feature, but how to do it to scale? Hmm.... Funnily enough Colin, having recently revisited some open wagon projects old and new, I've only just decided not to continue with that particular detail. To be correct, what I fitted was not the capping itself (which incidentally is already moulded on the Airfix RTR 5-plank body) but the U-shaped retaining clips which I believe were added to most wooden bodied open wagons in BR days. I couldnt and wouldnt claim any credit for the idea, it came from Geoff Kent's seminal volume 1 of 'The 4mm Wagon'. Each clip is formed of three short lengths of the smallest Microstrip (probably 10 thou), butted up to each other and filed slightly round at the corners when set. Any excess length can also be trimmed at that point. Be warned, it's incredibly time consuming and not that easy to get them looking fine enough Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 Evergreen strip might do the trick for the capping. the clips could be brass fret or just wee slivers of strip on either side. I think Evergreen do 10" by 20", or .25 mm by .5 mm- it would be over-scale, but would people notice? Hi Jon. Thanks for the advice. As for would people notice if the caps were over-scale, I would! Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 As ever, superb workmanship...I'll have to up my own standards somewhat, particularly having seen your efforts with the SR 15 ton brake. MJT should be able to supply buffer heads....in fact, almost any type of buffer. Filthy lathe, though ! gerrynick Hi gerrynick, I'll have a look at the MJT range for buffer heads. Sorry about the filthy lathe! Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 Colin, no I did not work at Bristol East Depot, but it was one of the yards I was thinking of when trying to work out a plausible excuse for you to run a second spoil train that would be a bit different. It was a busy yard at times as you may remember, Tom Kelly the supervisor with his pipe, and Len Ryan the TOPS numbertaker/checker are two names I remember. I worked in Bristol TOPS, we used to send them details of the incoming trains, and prepare TOPS Trainlists for their departures. On a busy weekend they sometimes had 12 or 14 departures from late Saturday PM to Sunday lunchtime. The spoil trips to Stoke Gifford Tip would be full trains off weekend working sites on Monday Tuesday and Wednesday, by Thursday or Friday the spoil trips would be shorter trains made up of stragglers left behind from earlier in the week, that was the sort of working I wondered might happen to Newhaven. DE313026 is coming along nicely cheers Hi Rivercider, Interesting information on spoil train workings. There were more workings of these trains than I had assumed. Possibly the same was happening at Newhaven, but by the 70's they had nearly filled the site. Photos of Newhaven c.1974 do show plenty of wagons about, but how often they were used I do not know. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 Hope its ok to post this here. A photo I've bandied around online before for other reasons - from the JJ Smith archive at the Bluebell: Image here Crossing the bridge at Southerham on its way to Newhaven some ten years before your time but the same type of train and wagons - even has a Shark up front. I'll never get away with a bag full of those old Airfix and GMR opens now you've opened this can of worms for me... Raphael Hi Raphael, Fantastic photo! I can now get my old Shark back out of storage! The van in the picture seems to be there for the ride, as there are no ballast hoppers about. By the way I have one little anecdote for you: Last year I met a man who worked at the cement works at Lewes. It could have been the early 70's when he was there. He was sixteen at the time and his job every morning was to clean the diesel shunter with rags soaked in diesel oil. So don't weather your Southerham shunter too much! I did describe the way he said they moved the wagons about on the Tarring Neville topic. How is Southerham coming on by the way? Edit: If that train is going to Newhaven why is it empty?! Was it, as I believe, that empty wagons were kept there until needed? That seems to be what BR did with Grampus types in the 70's. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 Funnily enough Colin, having recently revisited some open wagon projects old and new, I've only just decided not to continue with that particular detail. To be correct, what I fitted was not the capping itself (which incidentally is already moulded on the Airfix RTR 5-plank body) but the U-shaped retaining clips which I believe were added to most wooden bodied open wagons in BR days. I couldnt and wouldnt claim any credit for the idea, it came from Geoff Kent's seminal volume 1 of 'The 4mm Wagon'. Each clip is formed of three short lengths of the smallest Microstrip (probably 10 thou), butted up to each other and filed slightly round at the corners when set. Any excess length can also be trimmed at that point. Be warned, it's incredibly time consuming and not that easy to get them looking fine enough Thanks for replying so quickly Pennine MC. I wold never have guessed the capping strip wasn't there in that photo of the pipe wagon. It's a good trick of the eye. In fact, it looks very nice indeed when done well. I wonder if something could be done in thin brass strip. I do take your point about the time aspect, what has been done to the wagon so far has doubled the build time already. I get impatient when there are lots of wagons to make. I'd love a train like the one in number6's photo, but will have to make do with eleven wagons plus brake van. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Capping: I usually use strips of 5 thou' cut from sheet (Evergreen do this) cut overlength and fixed to the top of the sides with a spot of cyano'. Once that's set I use a spot of solvent to soften the strip to conform with the sides, allow that to set and trim to the right length a day or so later. John Hayes, I note, pre-forms the things (again from 5 thou') and fixes them with solvent. I've tried that but the wastage rate is enormous and life is too short. the detail is worth having though. Adam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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