RMweb Premium Lambton58 Posted November 6, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 6, 2009 Possibly a controversial view, but here goes! Before we embark on more new builds of replica engines, wouldn't it better to restore some of the historic real stock first? For example, think about the Worsdell J21; currently in pieces at the North Norfolk Railway, it's a nice small engine, ideal for many preserved railways. I'm sure there are other locos that are equally deserving, not to mention all the historic carriage and wagon stock quietly decaying in the back sidings of our preserved lines. Don't get me wrong, I think Tornado is superb. Likewise the historic replicas (Locomotion, Rocket, Sans Pariel & Steam Elephant etc) and I'd love to see some of the above suggestions (the G5, V3 & A8 particularly) at work, but given the limited resources available these days shouldn't we protect our heritage first? Ralph (ducking back below the parapet) Lambton 58 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Possibly a controversial view, but here goes! Before we embark on more new builds of replica engines, wouldn't it better to restore some of the historic real stock first? For example, think about the Worsdell J21; currently in pieces at the North Norfolk Railway, it's a nice small engine, ideal for many preserved railways. I'm sure there are other locos that are equally deserving, not to mention all the historic carriage and wagon stock quietly decaying in the back sidings of our preserved lines. Don't get me wrong, I think Tornado is superb. Likewise the historic replicas (Locomotion, Rocket, Sans Pariel & Steam Elephant etc) and I'd love to see some of the above suggestions (the G5, V3 & A8 particularly) at work, but given the limited resources available these days shouldn't we protect our heritage first? Ralph (ducking back below the parapet) Lambton 58 Hi Ralph, On another forum I peruse, your same suggestion was said in a very different way - thank you, sincerely, for not going straight for the jugular to talk about the costs of the new build projects and why the money put into them "should" go to restoration projects instead! I agree that we should do something about projects such as the J21 - I sent a cheque off recently to its new group after reading about its plight in one of the railway mags. The scary thing was realising that I have the copy of Steam Railway still which did a big article on the last group to attempt to overhaul it. Reading through it, and finding that the only thing done to it was to dismantle it was saddening. I think the key to all projects - new builds, restorations and similar - is definitely sort out the management at the top first. If its mismanaged from the start, it'll fail. Simple as. This is the main reason in my opinion why there is a new Peppercorn A1 for everyone to enjoy. On the subject of whether or not we should protect our heritage first - I think not. Both restoration and new building must be done in parallel. Lots of locomotives that are still running up and down the country are either approaching their century, eighty or at the very least, fifty years old and new locomotive designs must be built to supplement, not replace, these engines as overhauls will get more costly and time consuming as they age. Someone in one of the heritage mags suggested that the general public - who are the bread and butter of all preserved lines - are more interested in the illusion than the reality, citing Tornado as an example of this. I would refute this in part - the reality of a Peppercorn A1 pulling a rake of steam era coaches on a preserved line is wholly real - the idea that it takes you back to a bygone era - now THAT is the real illusion and one which every group, line or similar must accomplish to survive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLPG Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Thought I would just add this pic in relation to the new G5, one new boiler! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill Dyson (onslaught832) Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Suprised nobody has mentioned the 'Blue Pullman' :icon_mrgreen:........yet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Lambton58 Posted November 7, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 7, 2009 On another forum I peruse, your same suggestion was said in a very different way - thank you, sincerely, for not going straight for the jugular to talk about the costs of the new build projects and why the money put into them "should" go to restoration projects instead!You're welcome! I agree that we should do something about projects such as the J21 - I sent a cheque off recently to its new group after reading about its plight in one of the railway mags. The scary thing was realising that I have the copy of Steam Railway still which did a big article on the last group to attempt to overhaul it. Reading through it, and finding that the only thing done to it was to dismantle it was saddening. I agree. I remember watching her in steam in the early days of the Beamish Museum; totally at home amongst the other NER exhibits and lovely to see. I think the key to all projects - new builds, restorations and similar - is definitely sort out the management at the top first. If its mismanaged from the start, it'll fail. Simple as. This is the main reason in my opinion why there is a new Peppercorn A1 for everyone to enjoy. Absolutely. I agree totally. If anything I think the need for good project and financial management is more necessary than ever. On the subject of whether or not we should protect our heritage first - I think not. Both restoration and new building must be done in parallel. Lots of locomotives that are still running up and down the country are either approaching their century, eighty or at the very least, fifty years old and new locomotive designs must be built to supplement, not replace, these engines as overhauls will get more costly and time consuming as they age. I'm not unsympathetic with that view. In an ideal world both restoration and new builds would be undertaken. If nothing else it might help present the further loss of valuable engineering skills and knowledge. Someone in one of the heritage mags suggested that the general public - who are the bread and butter of all preserved lines - are more interested in the illusion than the reality, citing Tornado as an example of this. I would refute this in part - the reality of a Peppercorn A1 pulling a rake of steam era coaches on a preserved line is wholly real - the idea that it takes you back to a bygone era - now THAT is the real illusion and one which every group, line or similar must accomplish to survive. Fair point. That kind of sums up my memories of watching the J21 running at Beamish. A real experience in a (semi) artificial setting, but wonderful all the same! Ralph Lambton58 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waveydavey Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 I'd consider contributing to schemes to build a baby deltic, NBL 21 or 29 or DP2. I've heard in the past about vague ideas of doing these but not being a reader of the preservationist mags I'm not sure if any are going ahead. Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Pannier Tank Posted November 8, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 8, 2009 BR Std Class 82045 http://www.82045.org.uk/ gets my vote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan-Leeds Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 The G5 is a commertial project as far as i am aware , one thing i would say is rather than sponsor ing a locomotive with ??5 a month why not give the money to your local railway or even volenteer at your railway i do and its the best thing i have ever done Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinmore Manor Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 The new build scene is in my opinion starting to get a little over crowded and I am quite sure a good number will unfortunately not come to fruition, there are too many projects chasing far too little money. It would be quite easy and relitavely inexpensive to produce a set of frames and then get the press in to launch another new build scheme, the real difficulty, let alone expense, comes in producing the patterns, castings and forgings etc. for cylinders, wheels, coupling and connecting rods etc. Perhaps that is where the GWR new build projects benefit as all have managed to utilise some standard major components, cylinders, wheels, frames and boilers etc. It would be nice to see one or two more of these projects completed before yet another is announced, might increase peoples confidence somewhat to back other projects in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Bus Driver Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 There's always the option of starting your own... I've been toying with the idea of building a small 0-4-0 saddle tank for years, just don't have a big enough garden shed yet. Or you could build one of these... http://www.pollymodelengineering.co.uk/sections/polly-locomotive-kits/index.asp I know you couldn't put it on the main line, or any line needing a LRO or whatever, but the principal is the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Personally I think the G5 team have done fantastic work finding people with the money to stump up larger amounts of cash to fund the locomotive construction. Its early as far as I know and the structure of construction is flexible to go with a sound business case. Compare this to Tornado which was very late, underfunded and badly organised I think. Yes the romantic idea of building a new engine is brilliant and the fact that Tornado is there is a testament to their hard work and dilligence, but you have to ask the question that if all these other engies run on mainlines and need overhauls, just how it took so long and needed so much time to oversee construction which was essencially contracted out. Did some of the team not get expences (aka salaries) to run the idea? Im not sure of details, or preciesly how much was needed - obviously some is to oversee projects and opperate - but what construction was there to do - when most of it seemed to outsourced. As regards my ??5 I would go for a preservation idea with a sound business case for its operation. Yes fund raising is hard work and takes a lot of time - I know i do some for a charity too - but there are some groups edging towards making significant progress. If not, think of supporting a engine group that has a important part of heritage to be shown to the wider public. My vote would be the J21, 65033, which Id love to see back. All too often big brash engines are the ones that sound and look good, but whats needed is a small durable design. The G5 and the 3MT group seem to be showing that the market is there for new build, being a small medium powered and economical tank to run on branch lines. I think thats the future... Not Tornado! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nortonian Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Gentlemen, Some of us are privy from time to time , to be in a position to receive certain information. I have it on good authority that Tornado is suffering from `Hunting` problems on the front bogie, as the original A1`s did, even on mile after mile straight track. Once in the `hunt`, it persists. This has raised concern via the crews and some adjustment must be sought. The other problem now coming to light, is the `quality` of the support crews for mainline engines. Again I have been told that concerns are rising over their experience in maintaining the `steam locomotive` !. This area will next be the downfall of mainline steam, not enough qualified volunteers. I think in the short term, investing your pennies in the smaller engines, be it new or restoration, would be wise at this present time. Kindest Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudley Dodger Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 There's the standard three at the svr or the patriot at Llangollen. Or there's always the various coach funds, without which we could have no preservation lines. or the DMUs at the great central or midland. there's a very wide range to choose from, so long as it's not a peak. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinmore Manor Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 The other problem now coming to light, is the `quality` of the support crews for mainline engines. Again I have been told that concerns are rising over their experience in maintaining the `steam locomotive` !. This area will next be the downfall of mainline steam, not enough qualified volunteers. This is very true, once the number of 'polishers' on a support crew start to out number those with engineering/steam maintenance experience things can go downhill very rapidly, a few mainline registered engines suffer this way. An 'owners representative' is supposed to be on the footplate to assist a crew to whom the engine may well be new and to make sure that the engine is being handled properly. There have been occaisions where an owners representative has been called upon for assistance only for the crew to find that they have limited operational experience/knowledge of the locomotive in question and are just there for the ride. Not an ideal situation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerseyMan Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 I quite agree. They really do seem to be coming along in leaps and bounds. BR Std Class 82045 http://www.82045.org.uk/ gets my vote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Hmmm A very varied set of responses here. First of all, I must say that the Tornado "management" are a very able bunch of people who have quite convincingly demonstrated their ability to get a brand new steam loco built, commissioned and able to operate over Network Rail metals - to the highest acclaim in hauling the Royal Train. Pete Waterman is an excellent ambassador for railways with no doubt, but is not the only "pencil in the pencil case". My money has to be on two of the various "tornado" schemes - 82045 and 45551, although I'm really pleased to see so many others, particularly the NER G5. I do however, find it somewhat bizarre that some groups are splashing thousands of pounds on these projects while ideal preserved line candidates like 44123 lie rusting in undergrowth. After a trip on the WSR last year behind 44422 I was very impressed with an 0-6-0 tender loco lugging a 7 coach train over undulating route at a sedate pace, but with plenty of thrash. I thought a 4F (or 2251) to be an ideal "locoman's" loco for the job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hamblin Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 There is a rumour doing the rounds that the A1SLT are now looking at a P2 as the next project. This isn't exactly new news, but they have apparently been talking about it more openly of late. Regards, Dan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60B Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 There is a rumour doing the rounds that the A1SLT are now looking at a P2 as the next project. This isn't exactly new news, but they have apparently been talking about it more openly of late. Regards, Dan Was that the meeting done in a hazy Amderstam cafe?... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Warrior Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Some how managed to miss this topic. I am obviously supporting the Patriot Project! Feed back on the Patriot Stand at events is very positive and it does seem that the project is really beginning to take off. It is of course being helped by Heritage Railway helping to raise the money for the wheels. I believe that over half of the £60,000 needed has already been raised. The frames are comming together well. The drag box is now nearly ready to join the frame assembly and drawings for the frame spacers and the bogie bolster are well advanced. The project has been endorsed by the British Legion as a National War Memorial Engine and they want to see it completed by 11th November 2018. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 There is a rumour doing the rounds that the A1SLT are now looking at a P2 as the next project. This isn't exactly new news, but they have apparently been talking about it more openly of late. Regards, Dan It's been on the cards for a while I thought! From what I always gathered from covenators meetings over the years, it was more a question of finances and if they could get Tornado to pay its way in the first few years of operation. That, and putting the P2 design through the software to find the problems and then fix them... I did a rumour from a fellow covenator, but am saying nowt more than that for the moment! Some how managed to miss this topic. I am obviously supporting the Patriot Project! Feed back on the Patriot Stand at events is very positive and it does seem that the project is really beginning to take off. It is of course being helped by Heritage Railway helping to raise the money for the wheels. I believe that over half of the £60,000 needed has already been raised. The frames are comming together well. The drag box is now nearly ready join the frame assembly and drawings for the frame spacers and the bogie bolster are well advanced. The project has been endorsed by the British Legion as a National War Memorial Engine and they want to see it completed by 1th November 2018. A fine engine it will be too - I plan on sending a cheque in myself, once finances are better. This is one new build that is sure to stir the hearts of all she meets, and in not too dissimilar a way to Tornado at that. My only hope is that the BBC could perhaps do a program in a similar vein to Tornado's - as the national memorial engine this is something many people of a patriotic disposition would donate to, but aren't necessarily aware of The Unknown Warrior as yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Warrior Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 A fine engine it will be too - I plan on sending a cheque in myself, once finances are better. This is one new build that is sure to stir the hearts of all she meets, and in not too dissimilar a way to Tornado at that. My only hope is that the BBC could perhaps do a program in a similar vein to Tornado's - as the national memorial engine this is something many people of a patriotic disposition would donate to, but aren't necessarily aware of The Unknown Warrior as yet. For those who have not found it yet here is the web site for the Patriot Project including photos of the Frames and the drag box: http://www.lms-patriot.org.uk/index.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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