'Greenwash'

[Jenny Emily]

As an aside, despite loft insulation being easy to fit and relatively cheap, uptake of the available grants has been generally quite poor. You know the reason why? Because lots of people have stored lots of junk in their lofts and the effort of clearing it out is too much bother. Doesn't really give you much hope for the human race...

 

When I had mine done the boffin that surveyed it claimed we had to even take up the boarding too - a task that proved impossible because of the way they were fastened down. Luckily the fitters who arrived were more realistic and laid the insulation over the top (tucking it in thoroughly at the eaves so that it didn't create a wind tunnel under the insulation). My Father was in the "my loft is too full of $h!t£" category and he baulked at the effort of moving it all, electing to forego extra insulation.

 

I think the grants are being phased out though aren't they? If anyone here does qualify for them, now would be an excellent time to apply. From application to doing was less than a week for here, because the insulation company had so little work on.

 

 

I still use 4-star leaded petrol whenever I find places that sell it

 

 

Still get it round my way!

 

 

I did not realise it still got made? If it is old stock it must be equivalent to one star petrol or worse by now as the octane slowly evaporates and water gets absorbed into it. Are you sure it isn't LRP dressed up as what it replaced?

 

Put it in a modern car at your peril though - it will destroy the cat and those things are rather expensive to be replacing any more than you have to. And don't get me started on the pollution caused by mining and processing the rare metals that go in them... It would have been far greener to have invested in improving fuel economies of newer engines instead. But of course, the pollution is released in places other than Europe, so politicians can pretend that it makes Europe greener.

 

 

 

[spamcan61]

 

I did not realise it still got made? If it is old stock it must be equivalent to one star petrol or worse by now as the octane slowly evaporates and water gets absorbed into it. Are you sure it isn't LRP dressed up as what it replaced?

 

Put it in a modern car at your peril though - it will destroy the cat and those things are rather expensive to be replacing any more than you have to. And don't get me started on the pollution caused by mining and processing the rare metals that go in them... It would have been far greener to have invested in improving fuel economies of newer engines instead. But of course, the pollution is released in places other than Europe, so politicians can pretend that it makes Europe greener.

 

I was surprised first time I drove past the garage, but there is still a limited amount of proper leaded 4 star produced, although I think current usage is quite a bit below the yearly 'ration' that is allowable, presumably under some EU directive or other.

 

I agree it would be interesting to see what a modern sophisticated/complicated car engine could produce in terms of mpg if it wasn't saddled with a cat., and could hence run much leaner: after all my current 2000cc 130 bhp Vecta manages better fuel economy than my 1256 40?bhp Viva did, the difference without a cat would be huge I reckon.

[BluenGreyAnorak]

I think the grants are being phased out though aren't they?

Not according to what a quick Google tells me. They're still being promoted on Govt. and other websites, with nothing to suggest they're ending.

 

 

I did not realise it still got made? If it is old stock it must be equivalent to one star petrol or worse by now as the octane slowly evaporates and water gets absorbed into it. Are you sure it isn't LRP dressed up as what it replaced?

AFAIK 'proper' 4 star was withdrawn in 2000, so it must be LRP of some description? There was a time when some small scale production did continue, mainly it seems to molify some car owners clubs with lots of older vehicles, but I can't find any mention of it now.

[spamcan61]

 

AFAIK 'proper' 4 star was withdrawn in 2000, so it must be LRP of some description? There was a time when some small scale production did continue, mainly it seems to molify some car owners clubs with lots of older vehicles, but I can't find any mention of it now.

 

Yeah, I found a page on one government website announcing the demise of LRP, that was undated. I'll take a wander past the garage in the next few days and see if the sign is still there.

[Horsetan]

Leaded 4-star is still available. My nearest stockist is in Knebworth......

 

And if you can't get to a station, you can still add lead - I think it's marketed under the name "Tetraboost" - to your unleaded petrol. Only drawback is that you can only buy the stuff in bulk, not single bottles at a time.

 

My car was built in December 1982 and is not saddled by any sort of cat.

[melmerby]

You need to be revolting like me. Just because it says 'cold fill' on the appliance doesn't mean you cannot connect a hot water feed. No trouble so far from our Basch Dosh Wisher...

 

SWMBO does it even more eco friendly.

 

Also - exactly how does a washing machine do a cold rinse with only hot (60+ degree) water?

That temperature would ruin a lot of fabrics.

 

Keith

[melmerby]

As an aside, despite loft insulation being easy to fit and relatively cheap, uptake of the available grants has been generally quite poor. You know the reason why? Because lots of people have stored lots of junk in their lofts and the effort of clearing it out is too much bother. Doesn't really give you much hope for the human race...

 

My loft was insulated to the recommended level with a grant to the previous owner, just before they sold the house. However the local council got some bunch of cowboys to fly over the district in a chopper with a thermal imaging camera to find "uninsulated" houses they could target. Guess what? We got a letter suggesting we insulate our loft! When I contacted the council they said we weren't the only ones complaining and the results must have been inaccurate! - What was the point of the exercise?

 

Keith

[Guest]

There's an interesting article here about the quite insane amount of money the US Army spends on air conditioning in Iraq and Afghanistan. Basically everything runs on diesel and it has to be tankered in off-road through hostile territory. There's mention of insulating tents and the energy saving cutting some 11,000 truck journeys and associated risks to personnel.

[Horsetan]

..... the local council got some bunch of cowboys to fly over the district in a chopper with a thermal imaging camera....

 

How much fuel was wasted doing that?

[Oldddudders]

How much fuel was wasted doing that?

Exactly. There is an issue about all sorts of green things that also help someone make a profit/living. The whole concept of a recycling industry has a whiff of emperor's new clothes about it, I'm afraid. As for stories about shiploads of glass being dumped at sea - yes, glass is inert, but wouldn't glass in landfill also be inert, but cheaper?

[Revolution Mike]

The whole concept of a recycling industry has a whiff of emperor's new clothes about it, I'm afraid.

 

In what way? There is no getting away from the fact that for some materials it is so much more energy and resource efficient to recycle than to use virgin materials - the simplest (most obvious) example is aluminium, but the same is true for many plastics/metals/glass etc.

 

As for stories about shiploads of glass being dumped at sea - yes, glass is inert, but wouldn't glass in landfill also be inert, but cheaper?

 

Of course it would be cheaper, but then recycling is not just about stopping things going to landfill. The reason to recycle glass is whether it is cheaper/more efficient to make from new or recycle nothing to do with landfill (as you say it is inert!).

[melmerby]

Are you sure you wouldn't prefer dodgem power? Grounded plane as the running surface, grid deck above as the live, every car with a power pole.

 

 

How about the pole-less dodgems which relied on pick-up from rows of alternated conducting plates and a double pick-up under the car.

Great until you ended up stationary with both pick-ups on the same panel - plenty of see-sawing of steering wheel until you hopefully managed to get both contacts again!

 

Keith

[Re6/6]

On the general subject of recycling, the sheer number of different plastics used in the food industry that we find in our supermarket packaging (raw meat trays and the like) is mindboggling and IMHO completely unnecessary. Why cannot the Government legislate in this matter and insist that these trays are either all compostable (which is already done by some companies) or made of one type of plastic that is recyclable?

 

My council will only recycle two sorts of plastic type /1\ & type /2\ as there appears to only be a market for recycling these types.

 

I question sucessive Government's committment to recycling when they could deal with this by legislation in short order. They seem willing to rush through a change in the law regarding the ludicrous appeal court judgement about bail.

 

Simples!

[melmerby]

On the general subject of recycling, the sheer number of different plastics used in the food industry that we find in our supermarket packaging (raw meat trays and the like) is mindboggling and IMHO completely unnecessary. Why cannot the Government legislate in this matter and insist that these trays are either all compostable (which is already done by some companies) or made of one type of plastic that is recyclable?

 

My council will only recycle two sorts of plastic type /1\ & type /2\ as there appears to only be a market for recycling these types.

 

I question sucessive Government's committment to recycling when they could deal with this by legislation in short order. They seem willing to rush through a change in the law regarding the ludicrous appeal court judgement about bail.

 

Simples!

The greater problem is a lack of consistency around the UK.

What's recycled im one local authority isn't at another.

Recently I have lived in Birmingham, Cumbria (two authorities) and Worcestershire and they all have different policies regarding what can be recycled and how many bins to use!

 

Worcestershire have an automatic sorting system (exactly the same as shown on TV a few months ago as being "a first", Worcestershire have had theirs for a couple of years) where all recyclables go in one bin. However it will not accept any black plastic even if it is the right type.

Apparantly the one bin system has increased the recycling rate over multi-bin systems.

 

Keith

[Kenton]

However the local council got some bunch of cowboys to fly over the district in a chopper with a thermal imaging camera to find "uninsulated" houses they could target. Guess what? We got a letter suggesting we insulate our loft! When I contacted the council they said we weren't the only ones complaining and the results must have been inaccurate! - What was the point of the exercise?

The cynic in me would suggest that a member of the council had a share in a loft insulation business.

 

Tell some folk they need it / must have it and they fall for the sale at any price - if they are also led to believe they can get the local council to pay for some/all of it and they think it is a gift, either way the loft insulation company gets a business boost.

 

Our loft insulation is quite poor and with most of the loft boarded it is just too much effort. I am convinced that it makes little or no difference. A near neighbour had his done a couple of years ago (no grant) and he has compared heating costs and there has been little if any change. He reckons it will take years to recover the cost of having it done and the lost interest on the money. But I guess it might make a difference if you were going from no insulation to some insulation and even more so if you are in one of those older properties with big drafty lofts.

 

So to me it is just another one of the many green cons.

[Taz]

Whilst I can't comment on the cost benifit analysis of loft insulation we did get cavity wall insulation done last year (with the aid of a government subsidy scheme). It has made a huge difference. The heating was on much less last winter (which was particularly cold) so this won't take too loing to pay back.

 

We also have boarded our loft space so would find it difficult to meet the recommended thickness of insulation.

To help overcome this I bought a stack of 'space blankets' (insulation rolls covered in foil sheets) last time they were on offer in Wickes. These can be laid on top of the boarding and around and over storage boxes and are easy to move around as stoarage requirements change. Seemed a reasonable compromise to me.

[Revolution Mike]

The greater problem is a lack of consistency around the UK.

What's recycled im one local authority isn't at another.

 

I completely agree - it is a mess. I agree with Re6/6 that the Govt should (and could) do something relatively simple to sort this.

 

Apparantly the one bin system has increased the recycling rate over multi-bin systems.

 

I would be very sceptical about the source of that! I am not aware that any of our local authorities are approaching the likes of the Netherlands or Flanders in their recycling rates - both of whom rely extensively on separate collection of multiple bins. If you have source segregated recyclates it is much, much easier to produce reasonable/good quality recycled materials.

 

But the consistency of approach is crucial.

[Revolution Mike]

Our loft insulation is quite poor and with most of the loft boarded it is just too much effort. I am convinced that it makes little or no difference.

 

So to me it is just another one of the many green cons.

 

So the word of your neighbour beats basic laws of physics? I don't see how you can reach the conclusion that it makes little or no difference...

 

The crucial part of loft insulation is what material and perhaps even more crucially - how much. Most people are shocked by how much insulation is recommended as a minimum.

[Guest]

Loft insulation is an absolute no brainer. If you put the stuff down yourself the payback period is about two years.

If you want to board your loft you can get boards with a thick slab of insulation on the underside.

 

Double glazing is the one where you never get your money back.

[Oldddudders]

Loft insulation is an absolute no brainer. If you put the stuff down yourself the payback period is about two years.

If you want to board your loft you can get boards with a thick slab of insulation on the underside.

 

Double glazing is the one where you never get your money back.

Money back is not the issue. Feeling warmer is.

[Kenton]

So the word of your neighbour beats basic laws of physics? I don't see how you can reach the conclusion that it makes little or no difference...

Nothing to do with physics just to do with finance.

 

The loft has some insulation (not 100% coverage) and certainly not at the "recommended" thickness. It is like all these green policy agendas it is a trade off of expense of installation versus the return on saving. If it is going to take 30+ years to get a good return on the investment then I would rather spend the money on something that suits my lifestyle. If it hasn't been shown to make a cost saving on a virtually identical house then it certainly isn't going to make a difference to my house - no matter what laws of physics and statistics are distorted in order to promote the sale.

 

It is a bit like the guy from the council who said our water bills would go up when we had to have a water meter installed because of the pool, "you will be using more water than your neighbours" - fact was the bills virtually halved. A similar scale of saving needs to be proven then maybe I'd empty the loft and fill it with insulation. Or maybe I would continue to choose to spend my money on higher heating bills and give up some other luxury. I'll certainly never be making any decisions based on the green/eco/save the planet agenda.

[Guest]

If it hasn't been shown to make a cost saving on a virtually identical house then it certainly isn't going to make a difference to my house - no matter what laws of physics and statistics are distorted in order to promote the sale.

The thing with insulation is it's easily quantifiable. You can calculate the extra energy required to heat your house to say 10 degrees above the outside temperature compared to if it was insulated. You can then put a figure on what that does to your gas bill and see how it goes. Remember, energy prices are going nowhere but up!

 

If you look around I'm sure you could find an online calculator

[Kenton]

Remember, energy prices are going nowhere but up!

That's clever ! and by implication you are suggesting that with an extra layer of insulation they will not go up?

 

The cost of heating is irrelevant - it is the saving on current bills against the cost of installation and loss of interest and the loss of use of that capital on other things that is relevant. No online calculator is going to take into account all the individual variations also the cost of heating is but a small part of the total power consumption of the house. It is probably this reason, above all, that the impact of the energy bill is so miniscule. Another reason why it is such a big con.

[Guest]

That's clever ! and by implication you are suggesting that with an extra layer of insulation they will not go up?

What I'm saying is that every kilowatt hour you save is going to go up in value all the time.

 

Like I said, all this stuff is quantifiable. Look up mu values, they're what the builders used when deciding what size boiler to put in your house when it was built.

You can just keep on saying it's all a big con if you want, but if you won't bother to look at the actual facts to make an informed decision it's up to you.

[Kenton]

What I'm saying is that every kilowatt hour you save is going to go up in value all the time.

So saving = £0 or < £10 which is going to go up by £0 or even 100% ! < £20 vs. cost of installation £100s

Like I said, all this stuff is quantifiable. Look up mu values, they're what the builders used when deciding what size boiler to put in your house when it was built.

You can just keep on saying it's all a big con if you want, but if you won't bother to look at the actual facts to make an informed decision it's up to you.

It is not a matter of bothering - it is a matter of not having any trust in the distorted figures presented. I would rather work on the facts that I know. As I said it made virtually no difference to a neighbour's bills, certainly not enough to recover the costs.

 

Also the proportion of house heating costs on our annual energy spend is very low to start with - perhaps that is why it will have so little impact. Most of our energy use goes on hot water (not for radiators), cooking, washing, lighting, and gadgets. The CH is off from May to October and yet the summer units used is more than the winter. So adding more loft insulation is never going to have much impact.