wobblybob Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 A lead bidder for vehicles for the Sheffield-Rotherham tram-train project has been selected. See link: http://www.railwayga...ram-trains.html Here's a link to an example in Spain: Hopefully things will start to move after the false start with the Penistone line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I prefer the Breda built Tram-trains that are used in they have steps/platform that moves to ensure the exit/entrance matches the platform or the street levels. They move with the passengers on board can you imagine 'elf and safety" in this country :nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono::nono: Xerces Fobe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 The results of the bid for finances for this project will be announced tomorrow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted April 2, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 2, 2012 A lead bidder for vehicles for the Sheffield-Rotherham tram-train project has been selected. See link: http://www.railwayga...ram-trains.html Here's a link to an example in Spain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk68mOrg6nQ Hopefully things will start to move after the false start with the Penistone line. Thanks for the link. Particularly liked the comment by the man from Alstom that the UK "seems to be forever trying to reinvent the wheel". This comment should be the screen-saver for every screen at D(a)fT whose continuous mantra is 'taxpayer value' and who spend millions in pursuit of their aim instead of using off-the-shelf solutions. Listen, I'm a taxpayer, I want value and value to me is the UK having a 21st century infrastructure worthy of the name. Tram-train to Rotherham by 2014- I'll believe it when I see it. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 PKP in Poland use similar vehicles on secondary lines which are closer to diesel powered trams than DMU's. They're economical and lightweight and always struck me as being ideal for certain routes in the UK. Many of them also have conventional drawgear, so that when they do 'fall over', they can be rescued by just about anything - a lesson there for the UK. How many forms of coupling do we have on the UK system these days, 5, maybe 6? Edit: That comment about the UK seeming hellbent on continually reinventing the wheel is absolutely spot on, and it isn't a mentality merely confined to the railway system. For far too long there's been a mentality that just because we're British means that we automatically know better than everyone else and therefore ignore what they're doing, usually to our cost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidH Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 And to that I can add: the only people who seem to be able to see it never seem to be the people making the actual decisions or holding the purse strings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Always ask 'Cui Bono?' - Who's good? A civil servant who fails to spend many, many person years evaluating all the possibilities afresh every time is never going to build a large department, so no career progress. All of government administration is built in this way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted April 2, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 2, 2012 Edit: That comment about the UK seeming hellbent on continually reinventing the wheel is absolutely spot on, and it isn't a mentality merely confined to the railway system. For far too long there's been a mentality that just because we're British means that we automatically know better than everyone else and therefore ignore what they're doing, usually to our cost. I would suggest it also applies to the French and probably several other countries also! Most people think that "We can do better than those inferior foreigners" Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwissRailPassion Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 How many years has this project been going? I think at least since 2007. This means 5 years to get this far and seven years to delivery. Yes seven years for a tram! Some people like schemes and stick to their idea even when it produces something ridiculous like the Pacer. I went on a Pacer on the Penistone line the other day. What a heap of junk - and the way it crashes down on jointed track makes passengers look at each other and roll their eyes in amazement as if waiting for something to drop off. A train that looks like a bus -why bother? And just coming into service in the 80's when buses where revolutionising their interior design making the Pacer look like something from the seventies. Back to topic... Whatever is ordered must be well designed and have a smart comfortable interior of quality. It must not be like a tram or a bus but like a train that has come onto the street. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 A train that looks like a bus -why bother? And just coming into service in the 80's when buses where revolutionising their interior design making the Pacer look like something from the seventies. I think you kinda missed the point of it!! It wasn't designed to look like a bus, it was built using parts from bus production lines! How it looks is a distant secondary consideration! It also comes from a period in railway history where trains were viewed as being in terminal decline so the objective was to buy as cheap (to build, and to run) a vehicle as possible to run the service. The Pacer is effectively a wagon chassis with a body constructed from prefab bus parts and fitted the primary 'cheap' characteristic well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted April 3, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 3, 2012 I think you kinda missed the point of it!! It wasn't designed to look like a bus, it was built using parts from bus production lines! How it looks is a distant secondary consideration! It also comes from a period in railway history where trains were viewed as being in terminal decline so the objective was to buy as cheap (to build, and to run) a vehicle as possible to run the service. The Pacer is effectively a wagon chassis with a body constructed from prefab bus parts and fitted the primary 'cheap' characteristic well. I think we accept how and why the Pacer was born but it doesn't change the fact the concept is far from pleasant. Using an underframe that may give sacks of seed potatoes a pleasant ride isn't necessarily going to find favour with those on the 07.47 to Manchester Victoria. It is to be hoped that the 2020 deadline for disability compliance may concentrate a few minds at the DfT but I wouldn't bet against a few derogations magically appearing. Related to their replacement and returning to the topic, I see tram-train as a solution to an urban problem. I never understood the Penistone line proposal which is an inter-urban/semi-rural route and which seems to miss the point. Take note of the word tram in tram-train and the Sheffield-Rotherham proposal with a link into Supertram makes a more sensible use of the technology as indeed would the Walsall-Dudley link into Midland Metro. I see tram-train as a useful addition to the public transport spectrum if used in its right place but it shouldn't be mistaken for an answer to all ills. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Many of the tram-train setbacks have been financial. The original proposals were to extend the tram proper to Rotherham, and do tram-train on the Penistone line (why I have no idea) For some reason SYPTE's funding bids weren;t as good as other areas for their tram extensions so neihter bid got funding. The two got combined into the tram-train to Rotherham Parkgate, which makes more sense from a railway point of view. So yes, the French can build a LGV in that time, but its that to-and-fro with central government that has slowed it down. With regards to re-invention, I would imagine that the UK has different minimum end loading requiement for vehicles running on the heavy rail network to Europe, but I'm sure something off the shelf shouldn't need much modification. The extra standard trams also being procured will be the same tram-train design providing the tram-train funding is approved Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 2020 and the accessibility requirements presents an issue for these tram-train proposals that does not seem to have been addressed so far... If you're gonig to serve existing heavy-rail stations with the Tram-Trains you need high-floor designs to match standard height platforms, but (with the exception of Manchester) all the city centre tram stops they also propose to serve are low-height designed for low-floor trams. Without a partial rebuild of one or the other type of stop/station you are going to fail to meet the level boarding criteria somewhere... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 With regards to Sheffield, the only existing heavy rail station (Rotherham Central) will have a low platform extension so the tram-trains will only need to serve one platform height. Why they didn't plan this into the nearly completed rebuild of the station I don't know (well I do know, the Rotherham station build was due to complete long before the tram-train was approved (or not). Still, its a lack of joined up thinking). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted April 3, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 3, 2012 2020 and the accessibility requirements presents an issue for these tram-train proposals that does not seem to have been addressed so far... If you're gonig to serve existing heavy-rail stations with the Tram-Trains you need high-floor designs to match standard height platforms, but (with the exception of Manchester) all the city centre tram stops they also propose to serve are low-height designed for low-floor trams. Without a partial rebuild of one or the other type of stop/station you are going to fail to meet the level boarding criteria somewhere... To quote an earlier post from Nigel (Xerces Fobe), " the Breda built Tram-trains that are used in they have steps/platform that moves to ensure the exit/entrance matches the platform or the street levels". I didn't travel on these particular trams when I was in San Fransisco (it was three years ago and they may have been introduced since) so I can't comment on the effectiveness. Mind you I did enjoy the 'kneeling' buses in SF and the trolley buses (same design as the buses but with trolley poles attached!) and the trolley-type street cars; it is basically a wonderful place for urban public transport.We will have to accept that with our restrictive loading gauge that any tram-train vehicles may have to be specials of some description and small runs of such vehicles may come with a higher price tag. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I'm a bit surprised to see people complaining in this thread about Britain not adopting off-the-shelf solutions. The whole ethos of the tram-train pilot is to use something as close as possible to a standard vehicle off a production line and adapt the infrastructure to suit. Tram-train is possibly the ideal solution for Sheffield-Rotherham but it is a bit debateable how many other routes in Britain it is the best option for - and a lot of however many there are will be round Manchester where a high-floor vehicle is needed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 There are quite a number of proposals/pipe-dreams for tram trains around Manchester. The success or otherwise of this Sheffield project could be decisive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted April 4, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 4, 2012 There are quite a number of proposals/pipe-dreams for tram trains around Manchester. The success or otherwise of this Sheffield project could be decisive. Correct. One of those is the Victoria to Wigan Wallgate line which passes through my local station at Atherton. I expect that it could be plugged into one of the routes to Bury or Oldham/Rochdale as a cross-city service. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I think we accept how and why the Pacer was born but it doesn't change the fact the concept is far from pleasant. I don't disagree - my post was just about the inference that it was supposedly designed to replicate a bus, whereas in reality the resemblance to a 1970s bus was not the design criteria itself but the result of applying the real criteria... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNCF stephen Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I think Tram Train is taking far too long to come about, however I am very glad that this has been announced. The worrying thing is that there is still no definite money for this scheme yet even though it has advanced quite far. I would hope that once the red tape is sorted it could be implemented much quicker than standard tram projects. But time alone will tell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesysmith Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 This is a farse. Has no one told the DofT that we already have tram/train system running in the UK? After all, don`t the newcastle metro system run on heavy rail tracks sharing rail paths with the northern rail system? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 This is a farse. Has no one told the DofT that we already have tram/train system running in the UK? After all, don`t the newcastle metro system run on heavy rail tracks sharing rail paths with the northern rail system? But Newcastle is even further north than Rotherham so it is unlikely the DofT people in London will have heard of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted April 4, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 4, 2012 But Newcastle is even further north than Rotherham so it is unlikely the DofT people in London will have heard of it. In any case the Newcastle metro system has more in common with the DLR than tram systems i.e. its a totally segregated from road traffic & pedestrians and does have a propper signalling system installed throughout. Trams by contrast opperate on the public highway and are drive on a line of sight basis where this occurs. Signalling on tramways tends to restricted to junctions and single line sections. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Also the Tyne and Wear Metro uses standard railway wheel profiles. The tram-train uses a special profile that is compatible with Supertram track (including grooved street track) and also works on Network Rail but only if they modify the points. The trial should be able to assess how this works over a period long enough for some wear to happen, thus predicting how often the wheels will need re-turning or the rails grinding/replacing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 I see the T&W Metro as more like the German S-Bahn suburban rail systems than a Tram-Train because as Phil says it is a totally segregated system and does not feature the street running tramway element. Closest of the current UK systems to the Tram-Train model is Manchester Metrolink, with essentially heavy-rail standard infrastructure on the converted Bury/Altringham lines (though not currently shared with heavy-rail services) and the street running section joining the two... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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