To signal or not to signal?

[RichardEyre]

Hi Everyone. I was hoping to tap into the decades (centuries?) of signalling experience on here to help me with a query.

 

I'm building a layout based roughly on Oxenhope on the KWVR (arial photo at my layout thread). The prototype is operated under OES, which I understand to mean that I could only have one loco on the layout at once. Ideally I would like to be able to store locos on the sidings, as well as shunt the goods yard while passenger trains arrive and depart.

 

My question is this: have I understood OES operation correctly? and would I have to add signalling to be able to operate as above?

 

Thanks in advance.

- Ric

[James]

As it's a preserved railway you could always signal it and have them out of use - there are a few stations on such railways I've seen where they operate as per OEIS but the station is fully signalled, or at least appears to be.

 

In terms of pure OEIS operations then you don't need a box but you'll have a ground frame to control the station throat during shunting operations with a seperate arrangement for the run round part - it may just be a simple point lever as per yards.

[RichardEyre]

Yeah, Oxenhope is all controlled by levers on individual points (or at least the publicly visible ones are) and there's no signalling at all until you get much further up the line. It's a token system so, as I understand, only 1 train is allowed in the section at any time.

 

What I'm wondering is if this system is capable of having provisions for yard working when not in posession of the token? If not, I assume some form of signalling will be required to protect the running line (just a starter on the platform and the rest off-scene?)

[PWSlack]

......What I'm wondering is if this system is capable of having provisions for yard working when not in posession of the token? If not, I assume some form of signalling will be required to protect the running line (just a starter on the platform and the rest off-scene?....

 

Well, how could it be done <rhetorical question>? While Loco no.1 is dealing with the train on the single line, loco no.2 is shut in the sidings and cannot leave. It's a bit of a waste of an operational asset, not to mention the manning expense!

 

It looks as though signalling, and a manned signal box, is required.

 

OES means exactly what is says on the tin.

[James]

It is possible that a train could be locked in the yard but if a branch was likely to need that, it's likely when it was built a 'box would hvae been provided.

 

If you feel you're model would have originally needed two deal with more than one train then you'll need full signalling.

[James]

Well, how could it be done <rhetorical question>? While Loco no.1 is dealing with the train on the single line, loco no.2 is shut in the sidings and cannot leave. It's a bit of a waste of an operational asset, not to mention the manning expense!

I think I'm thinking of more modern operations where the set up is such for some single line branches so trains can run without the need for a train staff. But it's unlikely to have been the same kind of arrangement in victorian times when labour was much cheaper.

[RichardEyre]

I should add at this point that I'm modelling an old station in modern times as a preserved line. Therefore excesses of stock and manpower (on weekends/gala days) is allowed and/or encouraged.

Sorry, it does say on the layout thread, but I should have mentioned it here too.

 

Per its original usage there's no way they'd trap a loco at the yard (it's a waste, as you identify).

 

At the moment I'm less worried about shunting stock into the sidings, that could be done by the loco that brought them. What I can't figure out is how I could store a loco in one of the sidings then bring it out later in the day.

 

Presumably there would either be another loco at the station (where would that go?), or the train staff would be a few miles down the line at the box/next station.

[beast66606]

Per its original usage there's no way they'd trap a loco at the yard (it's a waste, as you identify).

 

At the moment I'm less worried about shunting stock into the sidings, that could be done by the loco that brought them. What I can't figure out is how I could store a loco in one of the sidings then bring it out later in the day.

 

"Shut inside" was not unusual and was not considered a waste, if that was really the case the facility would never have been used

 

The answer to your conundrum is either shut inside or a cabin controlling the area.

[RichardEyre]

The answer to your conundrum is either shut inside or a cabin controlling the area.

 

Thanks. I had a spot earmarked for a cabin near the loop trap point, should I need one. Do you think this would be a suitable location? I'm guessing the criteria are based on sighting of the area it controls?

[beast66606]

Thanks. I had a spot earmarked for a cabin near the loop trap point, should I need one. Do you think this would be a suitable location? I'm guessing the criteria are based on sighting of the area it controls?

 

Yes and yes (and the ability to spot tail lamps of trains)

 

hth

[RichardEyre]

Yes and yes (and the ability to spot tail lamps of trains)

hth

 

I'd not thought of spotting tail lamps, but now you say it it makes perfect sense.

[The Stationmaster]

Many 'preserved' lines are well and truly over-signalled as some preservationists actually take an interest in the subject - so you could well have a signalbox and you could feasibly operate it by a token system instead of OTW ('One Train Working' - used to be called 'One Engine In Steam') the choice is yours.

 

Now coming back to your original question I have written an Instruction for a 'preserved' railway which although it operates on an OTW basis would allow them to have a second loco in steam/in oil but it would be very firmly shut-in at one of the termini - and I could equally allow another one shut-in at the other end should the Railway in question desire such a situation (which it very occasionally might) - but the security of the single line and its passenger train is protected by the OTW Train Staff which apart from being the authority to be on the single line also physically locks all access to that line. I have also done something similar in the past at a much smaller preservation site where we had a very short 'passenger line' which was OTW but on gala days we could have as many as half a dozen locos in steam on the site - all quite legitimate and duly approved (as it had to be back then) by HMRI.

[RichardEyre]

Thanks for your thoughts, Mike. I'm leaning towards adding signals because I think that'll give me more operational flexibility than OTW. I don't intent to run to a fixed timetable most of the time, so I may want to run a couple of trains in the same direction consecutively. If I have to worry about where the train staff is all the time I think my brain will melt.

[RailWest]

A few comments......

 

1. OES perhaps is a bit of a misnomer and the more modern term 'One TRAIN Working' is better. OES regulations usually said "one engine, or two engines coupled together" or similar.

 

2. The more common approach for an OES location is simply to have all the points worked from one or more ground-frames, locked by the train staff. However, if you want signals, then no reason not to have a few - at least (say) a Down Home and an Up Starting. Certainly in the C19th it was not uncommon to find places provided with a signal-box and a (reasonably) full set of signals, but worked only by OES - the Abbotsbury Branch was a good example.

 

3. Bodmin General is a good example of a modern-day heritage OES location. Being a junction between two different OES sections, it now has a working SB and lots of signals! Also the HMRI (or whatever they are called today) seem to feel happier with railways that provide working signals for all the regularly-used movements - less risk of an "oops, nasty" :-)

 

4. The OES/OTW applies to your 'block section', in effect that stretch of running line over which you work passenger trains. Nothing to stop you having as many other engines as you like all busy shunting away in your sidings provided that they can not in any way foul the OES/OTW block section/running line (I hope that's clear!).

[The Stationmaster]

2. The more common approach for an OES location is simply to have all the points worked from one or more ground-frames, locked by the train staff. However, if you want signals, then no reason not to have a few - at least (say) a Down Home and an Up Starting. Certainly in the C19th it was not uncommon to find places provided with a signal-box and a (reasonably) full set of signals, but worked only by OES - the Abbotsbury Branch was a good example.

 

Not strictly correct - only the points in the OES/OTW section of running line (or those making traps leading towards it) need to be released by the Train Staff, all other points would be handpoints in the usual manner

3. Bodmin General is a good example of a modern-day heritage OES location. Being a junction between two different OES sections, it now has a working SB and lots of signals! Also the HMRI (or whatever they are called today) seem to feel happier with railways that provide working signals for all the regularly-used movements - less risk of an "oops, nasty" :-)

 

But it has of course operated for some years without any fixed signals although sensibly they are now being introduced. If ground frames are used there is no requirement at all for fixed signals provided the ground frame is adjacent to the points it operates - if it is remotely located from the points then fixed signals are necessary under the last (and all previous issues of) 'the Requirements' although on some country branch termini where the signalbox had been reduced to a ground frame this was not always observed.

4. The OES/OTW applies to your 'block section', in effect that stretch of running line over which you work passenger trains. Nothing to stop you having as many other engines as you like all busy shunting away in your sidings provided that they can not in any way foul the OES/OTW block section/running line (I hope that's clear!).

 

The OES/OTW system applies to the running line and all trains (which by definition includes light locos and anything else such as freight/demo freight or ecs trains) which require to run on it. As I explained earlier you can have other locos 'live' in sidings which are locked from the running line and they can't get onto it without the OES/OTW Train Staff as it release all connections leading to the running line.

[beast66606]

<snip>

 

It's cheering to see that even newcomers to the forum suffer from StationMaster and beast6606 invisible ink syndrome, at least it's not just the old hands.

[TheSignalEngineer]

It's cheering to see that even newcomers to the forum suffer from StationMaster and beast6606 invisible ink syndrome, at least it's not just the old hands.

 

 

So invisible Dave that you seem to have lost a '6'

[Donw]

If you have OES or OTW can you still have the odd signal such as for a road crossing?

Don

[The Stationmaster]

So invisible Dave that you seem to have lost a '6'

 

Well he's definitely looking a touch slimmer these days (and that was before he moved)

[TheSignalEngineer]

If you have OES or OTW can you still have the odd signal such as for a road crossing?

Don

Manned road crossings on rural lines, such as hand worked gates with a crossing keeper in a cottage, often didn't have Home signals. They just had Distant signals for each direction between 500 yards and half a mile from the crossing depending on line speed. These were cleared by the crossing keeper using levers next to the crossing after the gates were closed to the road to let the train driver know the crossing was clear for him to proceed. Otherwise the red target on the gates was equivalent to a stop signal.

[RichardEyre]

Thanks everyone for all your comments. It seems there are lots of ways to go on this, I think I need to go away and do a bit more research on the methods mentioned...

 

The line is ex-MR/LMS/BR and I intend to stick (roughly) to this in my model. Are there any pitfalls I should look out for (MR never did X, BR would have changed Y, etc)?

 

If I do go down the signalling option I know I'll need a starter at the end of the platform, but I'm less sure about the other routes. From what I've read elsewhere on the forum, I think all routes that go to the main running line will need to be signalled. I suspect that this would mean ground signals on the yard exit before the headshunt, and before the trap on the loop.

 

I don't think I'll need to model any signals reading into the station, as there's only one train length between the point for the goods yard and the fiddle yard. Presumably all signals that would stop trains entering the station would need to be further away than that?

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks everyone for all your comments. It seems there are lots of ways to go on this, I think I need to go away and do a bit more research on the methods mentioned...

 

The line is ex-MR/LMS/BR and I intend to stick (roughly) to this in my model. Are there any pitfalls I should look out for (MR never did X, BR would have changed Y, etc)?

 

 

Not really - well not on a single line anyway If you are looking at the 'preservation era' you are in many respects looking at what they could get hold of in the way of equipment and the philiosophy they adopted in their signalling - you can see some Midland based sites where they have made errors and others where they have got things very right but adjusted to what they need to operate the way they do and the kit they could get hold of to do that - in the latter respect the Midland Railway Centre at Butterley would be well worth a visit but don't forget it is what they did to suit what they wanted with what they could get.

 

If I do go down the signalling option I know I'll need a starter at the end of the platform, but I'm less sure about the other routes. From what I've read elsewhere on the forum, I think all routes that go to the main running line will need to be signalled. I suspect that this would mean ground signals on the yard exit before the headshunt, and before the trap on the loop.

 

 

We really need a drawing although the layout pics are some help but basically the above sounds right to me.

 

I don't think I'll need to model any signals reading into the station, as there's only one train length between the point for the goods yard and the fiddle yard. Presumably all signals that would stop trains entering the station would need to be further away than that?

 

The key here is how much standing space/room there is in rear of your first point toe towards your scenic break. Normally your Home Signal would be pretty tight up to the point toe to ensure interlocking safety and an inability to change the points once an incoming train had passed the signal - but if there is a track circuit and appropriate controls this safeguard is applied in another way. But you also need to consider operational needs and that will almost inevitably mean that you need a signal at that point toe although it could be done with a ground disc although most preservationists would - I suspect - be inclined to do what I did on a scheme I planned back in the 1980s and go for a full size semaphore signal 'because it looked good' and we had got hold of the necessary bits to make up a bracket signal which exactly suited our needs.

[RichardEyre]

Thanks Mike. Track plan included below. I hadn't intended on posting this as it's all Peco track and I've since decided on Marcways and SMP, so the geometry's different. Also the corner marked tunnel may end up as a bridge. Hopefully, for the purposes of this thread it should suffice.

 

 

I didn't know about the home signal being at the point toe, I thought it would need to be up at the next passing loop. In which case I've definately got enough room for one. Would that need to be a bracket between the running line and headshunt, with the left hand arm being a small one?

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Mike. Track plan included below. I hadn't intended on posting this as it's all Peco track and I've since decided on Marcways and SMP, so the geometry's different. Also the corner marked tunnel may end up as a bridge. Hopefully, for the purposes of this thread it should suffice.

 

I didn't know about the home signal being at the point toe, I thought it would need to be up at the next passing loop. In which case I've definately got enough room for one. Would that need to be a bracket between the running line and headshunt, with the left hand arm being a small one?

 

Richard I shall be doing a bit of sketching on your plan later this evening/in the morning as you do have a number of choices depending on whether you want to use the bracket with a small arm or a ground disc co-located with the Home Signal. The engine release points in the platform can be done in several different ways too but I think a ground frame would be the most likely so will sketch it in that way (but equally it could be worked from the 'signal box' in which case it would have a disc signal). Lots of choices as I've already said.

[RichardEyre]

[Richard I shall be doing a bit of sketching on your plan later this evening/in the morning

 

Thanks so much.