Heljan Beyer garratt

[amdaley]

I remember the RO80.

Lovely looking car but the rotary Wankel engine wasn't very reliable.

However what we are talking about here is hardly new technology.

More like penny pinching. 

[Horsetan]

I remember the RO80.

Lovely looking car but the rotary Wankel engine wasn't very reliable.

They had actually solved the problems by 1972.

 

I had a 1973 car with a Mazda rotary in it. Lovely car. Noticeably quicker than the original spec.

 

However what we are talking about here is hardly new technology.

More like penny pinching.

Wasn't that the whole point of Chinese manufacturing? To allow Western businesses to protect or increase their profit margins whilst the going was good?

[amdaley]

They had actually solved the problems by 1972.

 

I had a 1973 car with a Mazda rotary in it. Lovely car. Noticeably quicker than the original spec.

 

 

Wasn't that the whole point of Chinese manufacturing? To allow Western businesses to protect or increase their profit margins whilst the going was good?

 

Seems like the going is no longer good.

[norfolkblue]

An update on my failed loco.  You will remember that she gave up the ghost and when I contacted Hatton's I was told to find an outlet that offered a repair service.  I did as asked only to find, (surprise surprise) that no-one was interested as they would be unable to source any spares.  I went back to Hatton's, escalated to a manager and said I was less than happy with the state of affairs and asked him to reconsider the position Hatton's were taking given that their first suggestion was dead in the water.  I was asked to wait a couple of days and was then contacted to say they would do a repair and would cannibalise spare locos they had to source any spares. (From my description of the failure they are suspecting a failed circuit board).   They have promised to examine the loco and provide a repair cost, based on the cost price of any spares needed and would have to work out how they would price he labour.  Only after I agree to the repair cost will they start work.

 

All in all a much better, (and more sensible) response.  The loco has been despatched today so now I just have to see how much they intend to charge me!

 

Many thanks to all who provided assistance with this, especially Stewart Ingram with his offer of a repair.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

An update on my failed loco.  You will remember that she gave up the ghost and when I contacted Hatton's I was told to find an outlet that offered a repair service...

 They initially refused to provide service support for their own - effectively exclusive - product? Way to build customer confidence guys...

[Horsetan]

 They initially refused to provide service support for their own - effectively exclusive - product? Way to build customer confidence guys...

 

That's the hard-nosed Merseyside business approach, surely?

[amdaley]

 They initially refused to provide service support for their own - effectively exclusive - product? Way to build customer confidence guys...

 

Boy am I glad I took a refund 

[micklner]

Thats another customer lost for the future.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Today I received my replacement motors from Heljan which come complete with the flywheel and prop shaft fitting already fixed.  Great service.

 

This does leave me a little unsure as to what will happen as they do look the same but I will put one in and see how it goes. Now unsure about the service.

 

I was hoping that it might be the supposed "good" motor from the 02 but I have no idea if it is the same outer case and size as the Garratt was.  I was hoping for something that looked slightly different to be a little optimistic. I can only wait and see.

 

 

I have still had no more response from Hattons after they asked for the photos, someone said they were talking to a manager but I guess 2 days (3 including a Saturday) might not be enough   

 

Garry

[amdaley]

Today I received my replacement motors from Heljan which come complete with the flywheel and prop shaft fitting already fixed.  Great service.

 

This does leave me a little unsure as to what will happen as they do look the same but I will put one in and see how it goes. Now unsure about the service.

 

I was hoping that it might be the supposed "good" motor from the 02 but I have no idea if it is the same outer case and size as the Garratt was.  I was hoping for something that looked slightly different to be a little optimistic. I can only wait and see.

 

 

I have still had no more response from Hattons after they asked for the photos, someone said they were talking to a manager but I guess 2 days (3 including a Saturday) might not be enough 

 

Garry

 

It must be an awful long conversation

 

Could you could clamp the motor & run it outside the loco for a while.

At least that way you'd see if anything was happening.

Edited April 4, 2016 by amdaley

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi Tony,

 

I could but at the moment I have reassembled it BUT, a BIG BUT, when taking the wires out from there grooves one of the motor pick-up wires was bare against the back of the light as if it had "burnt" through and the red was more darker to black in this vicinity.  This made me suggest overheating/short in this area. I thought I had photographed it clearly before dumping all the extra wire (no chip module now plain hard wiring) into the bin.  Due to the poor photo with the wire in situ I had to search for the cut off part to re-photograph.  Sorry for the poor photos of this.

 

I have no idea if this was the problem but clearly something was wrong.

 

The motor works in the chassis if I hold it but I need to remove some metal from the top block now as there is very little clearance between the casting and the wires.  At the moment I dare not try to put the top on so that will have to wait until I have time.  It really is silly how everything is so tightly packed it is no wonder there may be issues.

 

Hopefully tomorrow or the day after I will have it running again.  If after a while the same happens I will be sending the photos back to Heljan.

 

Garry

[amdaley]

I understand that this model was made to a price but that's no excuse for poor quality control.

I suppose with space at a premium there's always a chance of a trapped wire but that wiring in the photo looks nasty. Is all that area a metal casting ?

With everything stripped out surely there is much less chance of another blowout ?

[JSpencer]

When I reviewed the entire circuit, I could not see anything basically wrong with it.

 

However here we basically have a light that melts the wire.

 

Hmmm.... was this in contact with anything else other than the chassis block?

Is the chassis block itself live?

 

The only theory is a type of short that somehow passes through the motor in the opposite direction. A reverse load. The lights diodes on the PCB preventing it shorting directly (which it would have done if the lights themselves had been LEDs since the diode is after the short not before it). This would slow one motor down considerably.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The damaged wiring is another 'intersting' aspect to sort out. Personally I would renew with a revised arrangement to prevent any chance of the wires being heated by a light. (Being of the school of cheap and dirty solutions this would be achieved by 'no light'.)

 

 

 They initially refused to provide service support for their own - effectively exclusive - product? Way to build customer confidence guys...

That's the hard-nosed Merseyside business approach, surely?

 Whatever it is, it is a long way from their past customer service reputation.

 

What is it they say of reputation? Years to build, may be lost in an instant.

[amdaley]

When I reviewed the entire circuit, I could not see anything basically wrong with it.

 

However here we basically have a light that melts the wire.

 

Hmmm.... was this in contact with anything else other than the chassis block?

Is the chassis block itself live?

 

The only theory is a type of short that somehow passes through the motor in the opposite direction. A reverse load. The lights diodes on the PCB preventing it shorting directly (which it would have done if the lights themselves had been LEDs since the diode is after the short not before it). This would slow one motor down considerably.

 

I had forgotten about the motor speed but going back to the brief period I had my Garratt I did notice that the front motor ran slightly slower than the rear one. It wasn't a huge difference but you could see it if you looked carefully. I thought with running in it would balance itself out but a few minuted after I put it on the track it seized up even though I had run it in both directions on a rolling road for a while which is where I noticed the speed difference between the two motors.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Hatton's response to this issue would seem to be completely below the standard required by consumer law (both UK and European). I understand that this sort of project is not easy but if they can not organise it properly, including adequate spares availability, they should stick to box-shifting.

[amdaley]

 

Whatever it is, it is a long way from their past customer service reputation.

 

What is it they say of reputation? Years to build, may be lost in an instant.

 

 

Since this whole Garratt affair started I wondered if Hattons had changed their business practices in some way. I thought it was just me so I passed it off.

Looking back at Norfolkblue's experience I'm not so sure.

 

Not being from the Uk I have shopped online with Hattons for years going way back to the brown paper & string days. I always received excellent service with never a bother at all.

When I returned my Garratt I asked for a refund knowing full well by the mounting problems that the failure of my model was not a once off & I was not prepared to run a package service back & forth between Ireland & Liverpool with further Garratt attempts.

I received my refund straight away but not for the postage cost. When I queried this I was told that the postage cost would be refunded when they had examined the model obviously to see why it had been returned even though I had given them a full account before returning the model.

Now if whoever credited the refund had bothered to look at my account it would have been obvious to them that I was a good customer who could be trusted with their account of what had happened. Now I did get my postage back after I queried it. I wondered if I hadn't queried it would it have been refunded voluntarily ?

 

Now this is not the first incidence of a change I have noticed with Hattons so I was just wondering ?

I suppose the bigger they get the more impersonal they become.

As has been said "It take a long time to build a reputation & very little time to lose it"

It would be sad if Hattons were to be dragged down by their response to the disaster which has been the Garratt.

 

One thing often said is "If it ain't broke then don't fix it"

Perhaps Hattons have forgotten that one ?

[Ian Hargrave]

When I reviewed the entire circuit, I could not see anything basically wrong with it.

 

However here we basically have a light that melts the wire.

 

Hmmm.... was this in contact with anything else other than the chassis block?

Is the chassis block itself live?

 

The only theory is a type of short that somehow passes through the motor in the opposite direction. A reverse load. The lights diodes on the PCB preventing it shorting directly (which it would have done if the lights themselves had been LEDs since the diode is after the short not before it). This would slow one motor down considerably.

Are they the usual 'grain of wheat' bulbs so beloved of Heljan from way back ? They had a history of causing running problems. My first Hymek ( from Hattons,incidentally ) was returned because it would run in one direction only...caused by a directional light bulb failure.

[JSpencer]

Are they the usual 'grain of wheat' bulbs so beloved of Heljan from way back ? They had a history of causing running problems. My first Hymek ( from Hattons,incidentally ) was returned because it would run in one direction only...caused by a directional light bulb failure.

 

If the Hymek has the diodes on the 8 pin plug like the Garrett then if there is a problem with one of the diodes, that would cause the problem you noted. Easily fixed by just changing over the plug to another one from Heljan with diodes (the replacement plug should also have diodes - those used by Hornby do not for example). In theory switching to DCC should also cure it.

[Ian Hargrave]

Hatton's response to this issue would seem to be completely below the standard required by consumer law (both UK and European). I understand that this sort of project is not easy but if they can not organise it properly, including adequate spares availability, they should stick to box-shifting.

 

There are quite a number of forum members who'd be upset by this.Remember Hattons have commissioned several items from DJM including the eagerly awaited King.Dave Jones is an entirely different operator from Heljan,as is evidenced by his successful dealings with Kernow. One swallow doesn't make a summer and equally one dead turkey (BG) doesn't make for wholesale slaughter either..I didn't indulge in the BG because,apart from the well aired problems discussed here,it is too cumbersome to handle for me in everyday use.Its problems are not going to deter me...or a good many others.....from an option to purchase from Hattons their J94,58XX tank and several Kings.

 

We need retailers'commissions....Locomotion,Invicta,C&M,Kernow,Hattons et al...to stimulate this hobby for our present and future delectation.Is it not a healthy thing that Hattons are moving on from 'box-shifting' ? Agreed that this particular episode puts a blemish on their reputation but let's put things in perspective please.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... One swallow doesn't make a summer and equally one dead turkey (BG) doesn't make for wholesale slaughter either...

 That's for the customer base to decide by the most honest vote we cast, with our wonga! I tend to the view that the BG wasn't a dead turkey in any case, more one of some winged game birds from a large flock. I have had the pleasure of seeing and operating a couple running on friend's layouts, one of them pretty regularly, both good performers.

 

Any loss of reputation for service that accrues to Hattons from this will barely hurt them as a business. They will simply drop to 'on par' with average retailer performance for this sector in this respect. If they maintain their mighty efficient in getting the goods to the doorstep programme, with there or thereabouts competitive pricing, then that'll be good enough for most customers, most of the time. (Utilitarian game plan.)

[Grovenor]

Are they the usual 'grain of wheat' bulbs so beloved of Heljan from way back ? They had a history of causing running problems. My first Hymek ( from Hattons,incidentally ) was returned because it would run in one direction only...caused by a directional light bulb failure.

No, the lights are LEDs mounted on a tiny board along with a dropper resistor.

 

When I reviewed the entire circuit, I could not see anything basically wrong with it.

I could not see any issues with the wiring from pick ups to the motors or to the lights when a DCC decoder is used, but so far I cannot make sense of the wiring to the lights when the dummy plug is in use, even though it was working before I took mine to bits!

The diodes do not seem to be connected as one would expect. More investigation needed.

Regards

[micklner]

There are quite a number of forum members who'd be upset by this.Remember Hattons have commissioned several items from DJM including the eagerly awaited King.Dave Jones is an entirely different operator from Heljan,as is evidenced by his successful dealings with Kernow. One swallow doesn't make a summer and equally one dead turkey (BG) doesn't make for wholesale slaughter either..I didn't indulge in the BG because,apart from the well aired problems discussed here,it is too cumbersome to handle for me in everyday use.Its problems are not going to deter me...or a good many others.....from an option to purchase from Hattons their J94,58XX tank and several Kings.

 

We need retailers'commissions....Locomotion,Invicta,C&M,Kernow,Hattons et al...to stimulate this hobby for our present and future delectation.Is it not a healthy thing that Hattons are moving on from 'box-shifting' ? Agreed that this particular episode puts a blemish on their reputation but let's put things in perspective please.

 

Good points but if someone makes something and/or commissions a product then they have a responsibility  to provide a aftercare service to their customers (it is irrelevant what the product is). They were quite happy to take the money in the first place and they should sort out any problems thereon.

 

When a company in this case Hattons  wash their hands of a product ,then there is a simple answer don't buy anything similar in the future from that company. Other items may have been made by other manufacturers in the future being sold by them, but why take the risk if the same problems occur with that item?. How can there be any trust in the future?.

 

When it gets to the stage they don't even bother replying to queries than that is plain rude and sadly non existent customer service.

Edited April 5, 2016 by micklner

[JSpencer]

Oddly, it was easy to get spares for the Heljan/Hattons class 28. I know, I brought some. I cannot remember if it was from Howes or Hattons though.

[amdaley]

You never hear about the good one's but one bad experience & everyone will know about it.

I'm sure everyone in business has had dead turkeys.

Every business has problems from time to time but its how you react to those problems which will matter.

If you have a problem then you react fast. Get it sorted & quickly.

 

I'm not into bashing Hattons or any other retailer but how they have reacted to some of the Garratt problems has not been what I would have expected from them.

People will make up their own minds, that's just my reaction.

 

This episode won't stop me from buying from Hattons again but what it will do is make me think carefully in future about online purchases from everyone.

 

What if I have a problem ?

Will I be taken care of if I do have a problem ?

What are the return terms of a retailer etc ?

 

I'm sure in the long term this will make little difference to Hattons but I think people will remember.

Incidentally One swallow by itself won't do much but a flock of them can make quite a mess    

Edited April 5, 2016 by amdaley