West Cornwall Layout Planning (Was Lands End)

[Flying Pig]

Ok last tweak and I'll shut up. Back to the first plan I posted which I liked best, with Stationmaster's reversed loco release (expresses - King-hauled or otherwise - will need to rely on the pilot to release the loco). I've also widened the platforms a bit.

 

[shortliner]

Just to add to my earlier post - I checked the Airfix Model Trains issues and it isn't in those - however I did come across an article called ST Just Vicarage for a layout in TT scale by Maurice Badley. Whether that was the gent who built the one I remember - I'm not sure

I don't think it was in MTI, but would need to check the indexes

Jack

 

Edit - a quick check of the MTI Index - http://index.mtimag.co.uk doesn't list it. BTW - the version I remember was steam, rather than diesel.

[D9020 Nimbus]

Wasn't St Just the work of Julian Andrews? I think it appeared in SMT (one of the later issues, ISTR).

[Kris]

 

Just shows how I've always planned a Devon layout originally. I forgot all about Brunels Tamar bridge. Looks like either I need to sell some stock or keep my pair of Kings to run in a darkened room when no-one is looking!

 

Nah , it's obvious that the GWR strengthened the bridge shortly before your layout was set. Somehow this little documented fact has been missed by many people

[rovex]

Just been reading through this post, Its really interesting to see a layout idea develop from an initial idea through to a finished model and I shall certainly keep watching.

 

One thing that has occurred to me is that from an authenticity point of view the platforms are probably far too small for holiday expresses. How about a portion of a much larger train. rather like what used to happen at St Ives and I'm sure many other holiday resorts.

 

The paddington train arrives at Plymouth behind the large express train and then three or four coaches are seperated from the end/front of the train and worked down to Lands End behind a tank engine/manor etc.

 

In the case of St Ives I think it used to be just the one coach from the Cornich Riviera express which was tagged onto the end opf a local train.

 

The carriages can then be stored until an appropriate engine is available to run them back to Plymouth. That way you wouldn't need engine facilities, except a turntable, as this would be done at Plymouth.

 

Keep up the good work.

[Penlan]

Wasn't St Just the work of Julian Andrews? I think it appeared in SMT (one of the later issues, ISTR).

It may have been, but the one I'm thinking about is Dave Curtis's from the Falmouth Model Railway Club.

[The Stationmaster]

Just been reading through this post, Its really interesting to see a layout idea develop from an initial idea through to a finished model and I shall certainly keep watching.

 

One thing that has occurred to me is that from an authenticity point of view the platforms are probably far too small for holiday expresses. How about a portion of a much larger train. rather like what used to happen at St Ives and I'm sure many other holiday resorts.

 

The paddington train arrives at Plymouth behind the large express train and then three or four coaches are seperated from the end/front of the train and worked down to Lands End behind a tank engine/manor etc.

 

In the case of St Ives I think it used to be just the one coach from the Cornich Riviera express which was tagged onto the end opf a local train.

 

The carriages can then be stored until an appropriate engine is available to run them back to Plymouth. That way you wouldn't need engine facilities, except a turntable, as this would be done at Plymouth.

 

Keep up the good work.

But you would still need 'engine facilities' to the extent that locos have got to be turned, watered, probably have the fire cleaned, and quite likely the Driver might want to 'oil round'. So you still need an ash pit, [a] prep pit (on the radial rounds from the turntable) and water column - no little or no different from what is already planned in.

 

Then look at the reality of what happened - albeit not all reduced to that extent but trains went forward from Plymouth, or started from Plymouth, through to Penzance or certain of the branches worked by locos varying in size from a 43XX to a 'Castle' with the precise loco not necessarily depending on the load but also on whatever was done to balance the diagrams and/or any alterations on the day of the race.

[rovex]

But you would still need 'engine facilities' to the extent that locos have got to be turned, watered, probably have the fire cleaned, and quite likely the Driver might want to 'oil round'. So you still need an ash pit, [a] prep pit (on the radial rounds from the turntable) and water column - no little or no different from what is already planned in.

 

Then look at the reality of what happened - albeit not all reduced to that extent but trains went forward from Plymouth, or started from Plymouth, through to Penzance or certain of the branches worked by locos varying in size from a 43XX to a 'Castle' with the precise loco not necessarily depending on the load but also on whatever was done to balance the diagrams and/or any alterations on the day of the race.

 

Quite right Stationmaster, I stand corrected. When I posted this I did appreciate that it had probably been overtaken by events and redesigns.

 

I hadn't intended to give the impression that there didn't need to be any engine facilites just that there could be the most basic of ones. Still stick with the idea though of the station accepting portions of larger expresses that have been split. It was something I was thinking of doing on my old layout where I intended to model not only the branch line but also the junction station leading to it.

 

Empty stock could then be worked back when it could be fitted into the timetable, all adds to the enjoyment, and if the OP wants to runs castles and kings, well why not its his layout.

[The Stationmaster]

I hadn't intended to give the impression that there didn't need to be any engine facilites just that there could be the most basic of ones. Still stick with the idea though of the station accepting portions of larger expresses that have been split. It was something I was thinking of doing on my old layout where I intended to model not only the branch line but also the junction station leading to it.

 

Empty stock could then be worked back when it could be fitted into the timetable, all adds to the enjoyment, and if the OP wants to runs castles and kings, well why not its his layout.

Nothing at all wrong with portions - after all Cornwall was very much like that or trains running in two (or sometimes three) parts - often in the 1950s on totally impossible timings.

[Chris Chewter]

I thought I'd update this thread as its been quiet for a while since the last post.

 

As indicated in the first post, after a wait to sell our last house, my family and I finally moved to a property with a garage.  However the garage got hijacked with removal boxes and other stored items, and time flys quickly with a young family.  (I blinked and we had been living in the house for two years!) I finally decided that a model railway is a must, and with a bit of moving things around and properly storing things in the garage, a layout should be feasible.

 

I decided that the plans submitted by Flying Pig were excellent, and set about creating a "straightened out" version.  Basically, I wimped out!  I simply didn't fancy cutting curved platforms.  However, before I took the plunge and started to build the baseboards, I took one last last look at the straightened design, and thought that it didn't compare to Flying Pigs work.  My revised design just looked too bland!  It had to be curved! With a bit of head scratching, a compromise was found that I'm happy with.

 

Below is the design that'll I'll probably go for.  The curved station throat gives an element of interest, with a single straight platform, similar to Minehead, which overcomes the problems of too many platform faces for such a rural location.

 

As for location, its probably going to be St Buryan or St Just. The former is geographically closest to the original concept of Lands End or Sennen, but the latter is a larger town.  My head says St Just, but there's still plenty of time to decide!

 

So basically, I'm just about ready to hit the order button! But before I do, I thought I should check whether there anything that I've missed?

 

[Penlan]

The freight side seems a little meagre, and mindful of the winds 'way down west', perhaps a larger, over a track, Goods Shed to provide some shelter might be in order..  Based on the assumption that the two curved tracks at the bottom of the plan are the freight facilities - thankfully complete with a headshunt.

 

Sandy - Just round the corner from St Just / St Buryan!!

[Chris Chewter]

I think the comments about the goods facilities are fair, although St Ives had less at one track and a goods shed!

 

I was thinking about loosing the carriage sidings and moving the freight side there, but I wanted to keep the carriage sidings to maintain more operational interest.  Rather than passenger trains simply appearing, the loco running around, and disappearing, a train can be reshunted equalling more interest, so they will probably stay.

 

I can fit in an extra goods siding, and more sidings mean more operation, so I'm happy to put one in, but I think any more will look a tad silly. I just need to research what freight would be carried.

 

 

[Chimer]

I would suggest you could fan out the goods sidings a bit, to improve vehicular access between them, but if you're going to use tension lock couplings, do keep them straight as per the second recent plan (bitter experience ).

[Penlan]

.... the original fan of two sidings was not unlike PZ's Albert Dock loading area.  However at St Just, no dock, but surrounded by Tin Mines, NOT flowers and early veg. from the Scilly's etc.,.

 

I find staggered ends to the sidings helps, if only so carts/lorries can draw alongside or back up to wagons/vans to be unloaded, and there will need to be a raised platform / loading dock along one edge of a siding.

 

Agree about tension locks and straight track, and I think two tracks with a bit of space between is preferable to three close together.

 

BUT it's your layout / train set, you know what you want to do eventually, how it's going to be operated etc., you do what's right for you....   I've built many an ideal layout, only to alter it as soon as I started using it operationally.

[DCB]

Regarding the above comments it seems to me the plot has been lost. The layout is close to the size of Penzance station, a town with a Harbour serving the Isles of Scilly and serving the nearby major fishing port of Newlyn.  Lands End is at best a small hamlet  10 miles west of Penzance, 10 miles of sparsely populated upland with deep valleys through which the A road twists and turns, Lands End itself is a popular tourist destination with large car parks and a amusement park and cafe and sea views and little else..  

The only traffic woud be tourists and with little freight the logical solution would have been a narrow gauge line like the Lynton and Barnstaple which traverses broadly similar terrain.

Had a standard gauge line been built the traffic would have been more akin to Princetown than Kingswear or even St Ives. 

However Penzance is 80 miles and in GW days two hours twenty minutes west of Plymouth even by the Cornish Riviera, so day trips even from Plymouth would involve six hours travelling.

It is much more likely that traffic would be tourists on day trips from the hotels and guest houses of Penzance St Ives etc and 45XX prairies would haul two and three coach trains, empty in winter on this line depending on where the junction was the trains might even work St Ives to Lands End, which would be an interesting model end to end with hidden sidings in the middle representing St Erth and Penzance.

Just one full length 8  coach train per week ran to St Ives in summer, a relief to the Cornish Riviera double headed by tank engines from St Erth which it was convenent to run to St Ives a popular tourist destination with a large proportion of B and B providers and Hotels rather than duplicate the service to Penzance, just one per week on Saturday.

Given this the track layout suggested is far too generous, one long platform taking 8 or 9 coaches, a bay with an end loading facility for horse drawn carriages at the end, a couple of sidings for goods maybe a goods shed possibly a carriage siding, though with the windswept nature of the site maybe not, a loco shed possibly and a turntable, 45 foot or 55 foot for swinging a Mogul, or even a 60 foot for a KIng but not the 75 foot monstrosity shown should be ample, with flat uninteresting moorland scenery and stunted trees bent to the east by unrelenting west winds.

Nothing wrong with the plans, the Captainalbino ones being particulatly good, but Lands End just would not have had the traffic or potential traffic to justify such elaborate provision.

Certainly not by the GWR.

[TonyMay]

Regarding the above comments it seems to me the plot has been lost. The layout is close to the size of Penzance station, a town with a Harbour serving the Isles of Scilly and serving the nearby major fishing port of Newlyn.  Lands End is at best a small hamlet  10 miles west of Penzance, 10 miles of sparsely populated upland with deep valleys through which the A road twists and turns, Lands End itself is a popular tourist destination with large car parks and a amusement park and cafe and sea views and little else..  

The only traffic woud be tourists and with little freight the logical solution would have been a narrow gauge line like the Lynton and Barnstaple which traverses broadly similar terrain.

Had a standard gauge line been built the traffic would have been more akin to Princetown than Kingswear or even St Ives. 

However Penzance is 80 miles and in GW days two hours twenty minutes west of Plymouth even by the Cornish Riviera, so day trips even from Plymouth would involve six hours travelling.

It is much more likely that traffic would be tourists on day trips from the hotels and guest houses of Penzance St Ives etc and 45XX prairies would haul two and three coach trains, empty in winter on this line depending on where the junction was the trains might even work St Ives to Lands End, which would be an interesting model end to end with hidden sidings in the middle representing St Erth and Penzance.

Just one full length 8  coach train per week ran to St Ives in summer, a relief to the Cornish Riviera double headed by tank engines from St Erth which it was convenent to run to St Ives a popular tourist destination with a large proportion of B and B providers and Hotels rather than duplicate the service to Penzance, just one per week on Saturday.

Given this the track layout suggested is far too generous, one long platform taking 8 or 9 coaches, a bay with an end loading facility for horse drawn carriages at the end, a couple of sidings for goods maybe a goods shed possibly a carriage siding, though with the windswept nature of the site maybe not, a loco shed possibly and a turntable, 45 foot or 55 foot for swinging a Mogul, or even a 60 foot for a KIng but not the 75 foot monstrosity shown should be ample, with flat uninteresting moorland scenery and stunted trees bent to the east by unrelenting west winds.

Nothing wrong with the plans, the Captainalbino ones being particulatly good, but Lands End just would not have had the traffic or potential traffic to justify such elaborate provision.

Certainly not by the GWR.

 

Well the easiest thing to change would be the name of the station, giving it a "typical Cornish name", possibly a portmanteau of two other places, or from fiction, and model its backstory more closely on Penzance.

[Chimer]

Regarding the above comments it seems to me the plot has been lost. The layout is close to the size of Penzance station, a town with a Harbour serving the Isles of Scilly and serving the nearby major fishing port of Newlyn.  Lands End is at best a small hamlet  10 miles west of Penzance, 10 miles of sparsely populated upland with deep valleys through which the A road twists and turns, Lands End itself is a popular tourist destination with large car parks and a amusement park and cafe and sea views and little else..  

 

 

But the OP makes it clear it's a "what-if"- what if the GWR main line was extended towards Lands End - which means by definition the area had developed in some way to justify main line traffic, however unlikely that might seem to us in our parallel universe.  It's his universe ....

[Karhedron]

I just need to research what freight would be carried.

 

Outgoing traffic would probably be mainly agricultural produce. The west-country was famous for its seasonal veg, particularly brocolli. Milk trains started from Penzance but could easily have originated at Lands End in your parallel universe. There was no creamery at Penzance, the milk being piped into the tankers from a lorry. You could adopt the same practice or you could add a rail-side creamery if you prefer. These are handy as sources of dedicated traffic as they could be quite small and easily modelled in low-relief if you fancy.

 

I don't know what the fishing industry is like in that area but fish might be a possibility. You would also get parcels traffics, newspapers and so on.

 

Incoming goods would be more varied. You would probably have coal incoming for local needs. You would probably also have agricultural machinery so you might want an end-loading dock.

[Chris Chewter]

Following Davids comments above, its clear the design has outstripped the original concept of Lands End, which has been touched upon at several points in this thread.  The only reason I haven't renamed the thread is purely down to maintaining the original threads identity.  It'll get renamed as soon as construction gets going! Don't worry!

 

Moving the location to St Just holds some merit and currently it is the most likely candidate. The only previous incarnation of St Just as a "What If" layout was an 1890's era model, so my intended period of 1960 would provide a different aspect to that already modelled, thus steering clear of the Ashburton syndrome!  However if someone else has a good idea where else this station could be plonked in reality, then I'm open to suggestions!

[Chimer]

I seem to remember once seeing a layout set in the mythical county of Lyonesse (Sp?), to the west of Cornwall, which apparently features in Arthurian legend.  Saw it in a mag in the late 60s.  Leaves unlimited scope ..... 

[westerner]

I think Lyonesse was also in one of Barry Normans books dealing with layout design.

[bluebottle]

The Highland Railway did propose an extension of the Thurso branch to Gills Bay, only about 3½ miles short of John o' Groats. How about a layout of Edith Nesbit's “Great North and South Railway”, with the last few hundred yards at John o' Groats and Lands End modelled and the intervening eight hundred and odd miles represented by a central fiddle yard? 

 

Edit: added smiley.

[Chris Chewter]

To try the layout for size, (and with access to a plotter), I thought I'd run the Anyrail plan out at a scale of 1:1. Well here it is, and I'm happy with the proposed layout.  Its highlighted a few minor niggles, but so far it's looking good!

 

[westerner]

My only suggestion would be to move the station Building further to the left enabling you to have a longer bay. as at Kingswear.

[Penlan]

I had wondered if there might be any tin traffic, but as all the tin produced in the west Cornwall area was assayed in Penzance, it seems unlikely it would be handled so many times for such a short distance.