Are there too many preserved railways?

[phil-b259]

 

Perhaps there are more. Now don't get me wrong I think the Bluebell is a fantastic line but I got the impression that both Sheffield Park and Horsted Keynes station buildings are in desperate need some work and that perhaps only one tender loco is currently serviceable. In light of this I couldn't but help agree with her earlier suggestion that perhaps the preservation movement is spread too thinly?

 

 

Rgarding the stations what you say is very true, all the more marked since the compleation of the new museum and rebuilt canopy on platform 2 at SP. Like an awful lot of things they are being put on the back burner for as long as possable due to the East Grinstead extension / tip removal swallowing every spare penny not required to keep the line operational. For example the track between SP and HK is becoming life expired and all the profits from last years 50th celebrations had to be used to renew the track halfway along Freshfield bank (the other half still needs doing by the way) and policy regarding loco overhauls is to concontate on those needing the least ammount of work. The only real exception to this is where grants or third party funding is avalable which is why we got the new museum when we did.

[Chameleon]

Isn't it a question of geography as well? Up here in scotland, we only have two preserved lines (and a smattering of industrials) so really, if volunteers and resources aren't spread too thin up here. i can sorta see the point when you have several lines in close proximity tho.

[Coldgunner]

Well, there might be fewer if crap like this takes off.

Absolutely mental!

 

as mentioned previously, the rail was there many years before him. Most of my 'normal' friends still love the sound of a steam engine and wouldn't give a damn if they could hear them at the weekends. Some people obviously have nothing better to do in their shallow lives.

 

Not only have we to thank the armies of staff keeping these lines open and running and the patrons who visit, but also the like of Rev Awdry, who without their work there may be significantly less volunteers to take the reigns. I'm going to visit my local as soon as I can.

[60B]

Isn't it a question of geography as well? Up here in scotland, we only have two four preserved lines (and a smattering of industrials) so really, if volunteers and resources aren't spread too thin up here. i can sorta see the point when you have several lines in close proximity tho.

 

The thing about Scotland is that they are all different. Keith and Dufftown is no more than many lengths of flexitrack operated by 1st gen DMUs. Strathspey does run mostly steam over roughly the same distance as KDR. Boness, whilst the shortest has a huge collection of interesting locos pertaining to Scottish railway history (even if most of them don't see the outside world). Caledonian at Brechin does have potential but there just isn't either the volunteers or willpower. The first two do run through magnificent scenery (and are relatively close in a fairly touristy area) whilst Boness does have some nice sights, is more about the telling of history and is better located.

 

Then on top of that you have Kingdom of Fife and Ayrshire PRS, Royal Deeside, Prestongrange and a handful of narrow guage sites. Does Scotland have too many preserved railways? not particularly, just not well spread (4 in about 250 sq miles or so). CR have always seemed to be a 'hand-to-mouth' organisation despite Dundee, Montrose and Aberdeen being fairly close. Keith also has potential with the history of Whisky and tourism. Personally, KDR is the one I feel that has the most space to grow if they could get into Keith Junction. The smaller groups whilst not expanding aren't exactly falling into oblivion despite the lines of unrestored stock and in the case of ARPG and KFPRS, changes in where they are based.

[RedgateModels]

Absolutely Phil,

 

the ELR is blessed with the Baron Street end of things where most of the storage/work is carried out away from the direct gaze of the paying public.

 

The Midland Railway Butterley (at which I'm a shareholder) is forced to present a long line of stored stock to anyone taking a train from Butterley to Swanwick which does nothing to help the first impressions of the railway.

[ess1uk]

i once went to look at a show home on a then new site not far from here next to (according to the 18 year old salesman) a disused freight line.

i told him that he should try working weekends and see just how "disused" this line was and had he watched tv or films ever??

sure you can guess where i was?

 

i don't think there are too many, just some are better at what they do / are more realistic about what they want to achive.

any way i'm biased as i'm a shareholder in a smaller enterprise not far from my town of birth.

[coachmann]

I think there is more to a preserved railway than just the track, stock and engines. There is charm, friendliness and scenery. When I took my wife and children I had to think way beyond the 'enthusiast' within me and try to provide a memorable day out. My wife loves the Keighley & Worth because of its charm, assisted a great deal by watching a days filming in the early 1970s and being invited aboard the vintage train for a ride afterwards. The filming of the Railway Children a short while after clinched it!

 

The Llangollen Railway is very similar only it is closer to our home. Again its a friendly and most welcoming railway and it doesn't matter which engine is hauling us. Even on enthusiast weekends the people that man the railway are always there to assist travellers. We have known the Festiniog Railway since we were courting in 1960 and so that line has history for us, like visiting an old friend.

 

At the Welsh railways, people seem to take whatever comes along, be it black, maroon, green or blue, named or un named..........Just so long as it puffs and makes steam!

[The Stationmaster]

I think people need to think beyond 'the railway box' when talking about 'preserved railways'. A number of them unashamedly not only survive but work as profitable businesses by seeing themselves wholly as 'tourist attractions' (and in some cases getting shot of 'preservationists' as well) and they all can only survive thanks to tourist/day tripper business. The 'support' most of them get from the railway enthusiast fraternity tends to be limited in financial effect for the vast majority of these railways.

 

All of this influences the answer to the question 'are there too many?' Looked at from a cold 'railway enthusiast' angle the answer was 'yes' way back in the 1980s, as some in preservation made clear at the time. Looked at from the 'day out/tourist attraction' point of view we will only really know the answer when railways cease to be able survive on their commercial income and have to either close or drastically cut back. As long as they can attract and satisfy the broader market with the sort of things mentioned by Coachman plus the basic essentials of good catering, clean toilets, and an accurately marketed gift shop they will survive as long as there is a market.

[ess1uk]

recently took the wife and 6 year old daughter to Swanage and she thought £28 for the 3 of us was expensive.

as she is realy not interested and comes along under protest she would argue there are too many for me to be visiting and spending my money on.

a lot of people probably feel the same, they go once as they on holiday in the area and never visit again. It is these visitors who have to be really impressed for them to return and spend again, a tough call for some of the smaller outfits with limited running and stock.

there are only so many rusty wagons you can look at

[Blandford1969]

To put a different angle, second hand rail is £60,000 per half mile, which excludes ballast, sleepers, waterproof membrane and the work to take out the old track and put in new.

 

The costs of movement allowing for costs of overhauls of coaches and locos was calcualted on the SVR as £27 per mile.

 

We spend £300,000 last winter at Arley (renewing drainage, rebulding the platform faces and new track) and Bewdley south viaduct ( re-waterproofing of the arches and new track) and you can't even see most of what happened. This winter we need to spend a further 200,000 on Bewdley tunnel, plus other projects.

 

Put simply to survive in the long term all railways either need to operate profitably or have people that are willing to keep on digging in their pockets to survive.

 

The stationmaster is quite right, that in truth for many 'preservation' is gone now to survive it is a business. I think of ours as a 16 mile theme park (waits for screems of horror) Passengers are coming to experience the past, what is also true is railways would do well to better show the the ordinary passenger just what it costs to keep them going.

 

There is bound to be at some point railways go out of business.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Small preserved railways tout themseleves as tourist attractions in the same leaflets as things like NT/EH run stately homes and castles. The public knows what to expect from these - they are well signposted, have decent car parks, clean facilities, a decent cafe and a nice gift shop.

 

A family might visit the Fulchester Steam Railway after seeing it in one of these leaflets. If they struggle to find it (until they spot the line of derelict class 47s two fields away), have to park in a muddy field, have to wait ages to be served at the ticket office as the odd little man behind the counter makes everybody fill in a gift aid form and then get charged £25 for a 2 mile round trip in a coach that hasn't been cleaned since BR sold it in 1985, then they won't be impressed. This means that they vow to give all preserved railways a miss in future, and tell their friends not to bother with this one.

 

What they've stumbled on isn't really a tourist attraction, but the private hobby of a small group of people. They've opened it to the public to raise a bit of extra cash to help keep their hobby going. They want to restore and run trains, and aren't really interested in doing boring stuff like keeping the toilets clean, don't have the capital to stock the shop with Thomas the Tank Engine^TM tat and nobody really understands tourism and marketing.

 

There are lots of small preserved railways like these, and I can see quite a few of them closing as they just aren't attractive enough to the general public to bring the money in.

[PhilH]

I wonder what the % of jo public to us lot go on the railways is it 80-20, in some of the smaller railways it could be more.

 

Honestly? Apart from galas for most of the year it's undoubtedly more like 98-2 - which is why Blandford is quite right about regarding his railway as a 16mile long theme park. You have to try and make things as attractive as possible to the public at large, even to the detriment of pure 'enthusiast' appeal.

 

It's also why 'Thomas the Tank Engine^TM tat' is incredibly important to most railways - joe public, by and large, spend money. 'Enthusiast's', by and large, want something for nothing, whether it's not spending money in the cafe or trespassing to get free shots of the line.

 

The ironic thing is that it should be the 'enthusiasts' who have the best idea of how much it costs to restore and run a railway, but this isn't necessarily reflected in the financial support they are willing to put in.

[RedgateModels]

There are lots of small preserved railways like these

 

and at least one larger, very well established one

[pete_mcfarlane]

It's also why 'Thomas the Tank Engine^TM tat' is incredibly important to most railways - joe public, by and large, spend money. 'Enthusiast's', by and large, want something for nothing, whether it's not spending money in the cafe or trespassing to get free shots of the line.

I recently went to the RHDR for the first time in nearly 20 years. At Hythe there used to be a traditional booking office, with a shop off to one side (so going in the shop was a deliberate act).

 

You now walk through the shop and queue up at the counter to buy tickets. The shop is arranged so that all the Thomas stuff is visible to the kids when their parents queue up to buy their tickets. The psychology behind this is quite clever and must generate a few impulse purchases by parents wanting to keep their kids happy (and you reduce costs or free up volunteers by not needing seperate booking office and shop staff).

 

All credit ot them for gaining a whole load of extra revenue by knocking down a few partitions!

[petethemole]

You're not a parent then? That to me is even worse than being forced to exit a venue through the shop. You have to budget for a purchase because it keeps the peace, unless you've been successful in teaching that 'No' means 'No'. Now I don't mind buying a souvenir/toy or whatever and will often get myself something as well, especially from railway or 'Heritage' sites (I bought a stack of books at Singleton recently!). However I object to not having the alternative. Also, what is spotted and is instantly a 'must have' for a child may be more than parents' budgets have allowed for. But I agree that from the venue's point of view it works.

 

I will admit to rarely using preserved railway cafes for meals; we take packed lunch, but we always buy drinks, ice creams and cakes/sweets and always buy a travel ticket, even if going mainly for photography. I wonder how much the lines make from some of the people who lineside all day!

 

Pete

[DavidH]

'Enthusiast's', by and large, want something for nothing, whether it's not spending money in the cafe ...

 

This frugality - or "meanness" if you prefer - isn't the preserve of "enthusiasts". I remember as a child being most annoyed on family holidays because my mother insisted on self-catering as much as possible, even when we were staying in B&Bs - every day, another packed lunch, freshly made (although we used the local shops to buy the contents). "Why can't we go to a cafe?", I'd whinge. Of course, now I'm running my own finances, it all suddenly makes sense ...

[The Stationmaster]

I wonder what the % of jo public to us lot go on the railways is it 80-20, in some of the smaller railways it could be more.

I go very much with Phil on this and would say his 98:2 is more or less spot on for the large majority of operating days on most railways, especially in holiday areas and on some of the 'bigger' lines which need 'ordinary punters' in large numbers in order to survive (witness the figures above for various works on the SVR). On various visits to such railways in recent years there have clearly been very few 'enthusiasts' and lots of 'tourists/day trippers' with the latter clearly being the folk who were spending the money which was the bedrock of keeping the railway in business when it came to travelling on trains and consuming refreshments etc. 'Enthusiasts' tend to be the ones standing around with cameras and perhaps making their trips on the train on gala days when some exotic 'haulage' is promised (a lot of which simply shifts the train from A to B in exactly the same way as the 'normal' haulage except it probably costs more to operate).

[ess1uk]

i've been to the NVR on many occasions to have a look around and would happily pay a small amount for a platform ticket if there was someone to pay.

do leave the odd donation in collection boxes though.

[DavidH]

On various visits to such railways in recent years there have clearly been very few 'enthusiasts' and lots of 'tourists/day trippers' with the latter clearly being the folk who were spending the money ... 'Enthusiasts' tend to be the ones standing around with cameras ...

The trouble I'm having with some of the sweeping generalisations expressed here (and I quote your comment Mike but I don't mean you exclusively, and PhilH made a comment about enthusiasts' spending habits as well) is that unless we follow every person around, none of us here can say for certain that all "enthusiasts" try and avoid spending money, or that tourists exclusively (or even just mainly) are the ones spending lots of money.

 

Granted, there are enthusiasts who think that the railway owes them pictures for free because they are, obviously, enthusiasts, but then, we've probably all come across "non-enthusiasts" (in all walks of life) who think they should be entitled to more than anyone else (just because).

 

If I go to a gala at (say) the GCR (well, I've been to more of theirs), I see a lot of enthusiasts - in fact, everyone seems to be enthusiastic about the trains ... (so how do you define enthusiast anyway?). And people are quite clearly (in this case it is obvious, because there's generally a queue) spending money in the cafes (and on the GCR there are quite a few of them). And lots of people are taking photos, but then a lot of people nip off between trains to buy a beer, a cup of tea or a burger (you can watch the ebb and flow from beer tent/cafe to lineside, in the case of, say, Quorn station at a gala).

 

But "enthusiasts" stand on the platform ends or footbridges to take photos, because that's probably what we've come to do - take pictures of trains. Where else would we be? And yes some will have a thermos of coffee and a packed lunch, and probably not spend much in the cafe, but some will, and because they're enthusiasts there's a good chance they'll be at the railway all day, and probably visit more than once.

 

And because we're enthusiasts, there's also a very good chance that in a year we visit more railways than the tourist/family group, so there's a fair to middling chance that our yearly spend at preserved railways is a lot more - just perhaps more spread out.

 

And because we're enthusiasts, there's a good chance we're already a member of at least one railway, or a loco group, or something else connected with the preservation industry.

 

And one last thought - and aimed generally rather than specifically at any railway - if "enthusiasts" are not spending much on your railway beyond a ticket, maybe what you're selling is not what the enthusiast wants to buy? (I can't help any further than that, it's just a thought rather than the start of a manifesto ...!)

[craigwelsh]

The trouble I'm having with some of the sweeping generalisations expressed here (and I quote your comment Mike but I don't mean you exclusively, and PhilH made a comment about enthusiasts' spending habits as well) is that unless we follow every person around, none of us here can say for certain that all "enthusiasts" try and avoid spending money, or that tourists exclusively (or even just mainly) are the ones spending lots of money.

 

Granted, there are enthusiasts who think that the railway owes them pictures for free because they are, obviously, enthusiasts, but then, we've probably all come across "non-enthusiasts" (in all walks of life) who think they should be entitled to more than anyone else (just because).

 

If I go to a gala at (say) the GCR (well, I've been to more of theirs), I see a lot of enthusiasts - in fact, everyone seems to be enthusiastic about the trains ... (so how do you define enthusiast anyway?). And people are quite clearly (in this case it is obvious, because there's generally a queue) spending money in the cafes (and on the GCR there are quite a few of them). And lots of people are taking photos, but then a lot of people nip off between trains to buy a beer, a cup of tea or a burger (you can watch the ebb and flow from beer tent/cafe to lineside, in the case of, say, Quorn station at a gala).

But you still went to the gala (hypothetical or not)... There are only going to be say 4 gala weekends a year at any railway the enthusiasts go to. There might be a lot of galas over the year but in percentage terms its still not a lot of each railway's requirements.

 

Peak Rail was a good case study I went to recently - On here and Nat Preservation it seems to get a lot of moans as it doesn't seem to have 'done much' for a while until the recent mainline connection. However I went there before that and what it was offering was a sustainable business model of an Austerity tank and some mk1s in good nick going through nice countryside and pleasant stations for a fair price.

 

Galas may do well for recruitment though, not sure on that one, another angle for railway survival. The thing enthusiasts generally might pay for is new builds or specific restorations of stock on railways or via magazine appeals. Special cases that though as the big railways seem to have rolling restorations of home fleets now.

 

I'm with 'market forces' on the monetary side.

[The Stationmaster]

The trouble I'm having with some of the sweeping generalisations expressed here (and I quote your comment Mike but I don't mean you exclusively, and PhilH made a comment about enthusiasts' spending habits as well) is that unless we follow every person around, none of us here can say for certain that all "enthusiasts" try and avoid spending money, or that tourists exclusively (or even just mainly) are the ones spending lots of money

 

I think that's a very fair point David but my visits to 'preserved' lines (including those in the line of business) have almost invariably made on 'ordinary' days and mostly (except on one Railway) during the week in at least part of 'the season'. In my view, based on sheer numbers if nothing else, this has to be where the Railways have to look for their 'bread & butter' income because relying purely on weekend revenue is an impossibility in today's cost situations.

 

I make a point whenever I visit a Railway, even if they are paying for my presence(!), to try to visit their shop (if there is one at that station) and put something through their tills with - based on the past 18 months or so - an average spend of around £30 - 40. In that respect I might be a little unusual because I have yet to see anyone else in their shops spending that sort of of money with the sole exception of the South Devon Railway's shop at Buckfastleigh (which I visited on a Sunday). The observed situation from my viewpoint, and from contact on a professional level with several Railways, is that the 'bread & butter' revenue which pays the bills does not come from the 'enthusiast market' and that if they had to rely on that part of the market they would have gone out of business a long time ago.

 

That is of course a very personal viewpoint and I accept that it is far from universal as there are countless Railways which I have not visited, nor am probably never likely to visit, but it definitely represents my own experience within the preservation movement (albeit several decades ago), as a contemporary visitor to some of its attractions, and on a professional level dealing with the managers of such Railways.

[spamcan61]

 

The observed situation from my viewpoint, and from contact on a professional level with several Railways, is that the 'bread & butter' revenue which pays the bills does not come from the 'enthusiast market' and that if they had to rely on that part of the market they would have gone out of business a long time ago.

 

 

I wouldn't argue with that, but I suspect that a good proportion of the free time and labour that is presumably necessary to make these railways commercially viable is provided by 'enthusiast' sector rather than the general public.

[The Stationmaster]

 

I wouldn't argue with that, but I suspect that a good proportion of the free time and labour that is presumably necessary to make these railways commercially viable is provided by 'enthusiast' sector rather than the general public.

Very true in most cases I'm sure - although two of the railways I have dealt with employ 100% paid staff, albeit with a good number of seasonal posts, in order to run their basic train services and catering operations.

[PLD]

Isn't it a question of geography as well? Up here in scotland, we only have two preserved lines (and a smattering of industrials) so really, if volunteers and resources aren't spread too thin up here. i can sorta see the point when you have several lines in close proximity tho.

I think Chameleon has a good point. I don't think that overall there are necessarily too many preserved railways, but it could be argued that some areas including the Kent/Sussex area that inspired the O/P are 'overpopulated' having several lines in a small area (other examples being North Wales, North Norfolk and West Midlands), whereas some other areas are very thinly served especially if you consider the relative size of the potential local audience, but unfortunately you can't just pick up a line and place it in an area that offers more potential!

 

In those crowded areas you do have to fear for the future of some lines, but who is to say which survive - pure economics will favour those who are best at 'milking' their visitors but those are not necessarily the ones which are of the most historical importance or do the best job of restoring/conserving the rolling stock... In those areas, the smaller lines do need to look at how they 'sell' themselves or do something different - what is their selling point that makes them worth a visit over their neighbours?

 

As for the comments about resources and volunteer effort being spread too thinly we did that recently in the similar Too Much Stock thread without reaching any real conclusion...

[Edwin_m]

PLD makes an interesting point about geographical distribution, but sometimes it works the other way. I don't think the "great little trains of Wales" are much in competition with each other. Indeed the fact it is relatively easy to visit two or three of them during a stay probably attracts some who are just interested as well as the real diehards.

 

On the other hand "clusters" in other places may be more in competition with each other - I'm not sure why or even whether this is so, as it's just my impression. Perhaps it's because people tend to stay for several days in North Wales but other areas rely on daytrippers who are unlikely to visit more than one railway on the same day, and then probably won't return for some time.

 

There's another cluster in east Derbyshire with Peak Rail as mentioned plus Wirksworth, Butterley, Barrow Hill, Crich and narrow gauge railways associated with several of these, all within a ten mile circle centred somewhere near Matlock.