LONDON BUSES: SOUTH LONDON

[Galtee More]

One of the current projects in the Nottingham MRS is a layout portraying the Network SouthEast days in south London. It represents the Streatham area and depicts a fictional line through a station called Streatham Mainline.

 

The period we are modelling, for both the railway and the buses, is most definitely pre-privatisation. One of the things which can help to set the scene, as regards both era and geograpical area depicted are buses. These will be represented by the usual EFE, etc models. We have a couple of Routemasters. These have the fleetname in full, in gold. Would we be correct in thinking that this livery style is too early for what we're trying to represent ?

 

Unfortnately, we then get confused ! Looking at the various Atlantean XAs, Daimler DMS and Leyland Titans available, either new or secondhand, there are considerable variations in livery and positioning of the roundel:

a. All over red.

b. Red with narrow cream band above lower saloon windows.

c. Red with deeper cream band full depth of upper saloon windows.

d. Red with bright yellow entrance doors.

e. White roundel above cab/entrance doors.

f. White roundel on low panels between exit doors and rear wheels.

g. Red with narrow gold band above lower saloon windows.

h. Various permutations of the above.

 

 

We would be extremely grateful for any advice and/or information to help us 'get it right' as regards livery and markings, and also the types of vehicle, for our chosen era and area.

 

Ian

[giz]

This web site may be of help:

 

http://freespace.virgin.net/ian.smith/buses/

 

Has histories of almost all LT and London Country bus types along with livery drawings and in many cases alocation details.

[Galtee More]

Thanks for that. It looks as though it could be very informative and interesting but, unfortunately, I can't get any of the 'vehicle-type' links to work. So I'm non the wiser

 

Ian

[brushman47544]

One important fact to remember when choosing London buses is that not all types operated everywhere - except RM/RMLs of course. Vehicle types tended to be concentrated by garage.

 

In the late 80s/early 90s, the main bus route operating RMs (not RMLs) along Streatham High Road was the 159. The 137 (with RMLs until 1991 IIRC) also operated to Streatham Hill.

 

Otherwise in that period most if not all the double deck routes in the Streatham area were MCW Metrobuses (M). Both Brixton and Streatham garages that operated local routes had big M allocations. Leyland Olympians joined the mix in due course, but not really Leyland Titans (T), which were allocated to other parts of London.

 

EDIT: The Daimler Fleetlines (DMS) would have finished in the Streatham area by the time you are modelling, although Brixton had an allocation of B20s towards the end (around 1982-3). Except for in Kingston and Sutton (B20s) (as Suttonbus in yellow on red) on tendered route networks; but I don't remember whether any Sutton routes reached Streatham.

[giz]

Thanks for that. It looks as though it could be very informative and interesting but, unfortunately, I can't get any of the 'vehicle-type' links to work. So I'm non the wiser

 

Ian

 

I don't know why that should be, I've never had that problem and I've been visiting the site for years.

 

I'll try a direct link to the RM index page to see if you get any further:

 

http://www.countrybus.org/RM/RM.html

[giz]

Look up 'Ians bus stop' on the web. Much information about all London buses around their working lives.

 

That's what I linked to but Ian doesn't seem to be able to get the internal web site links to work for some reason.

[Trevellan]

Another point to consider is that during the period you are modelling London Buses had been split into semi-autonomous operating subsisdiaries, each with their own "brand". Offhand, I cannot recall which subsidiary/ies served Streatham but, as signposted above, there is a lot of material out there for diligent researchers.

[thirty2a]

One important fact to remember when choosing London buses is that not all types operated everywhere - except RM/RMLs of course. Vehicle types tended to be concentrated by garage.

 

In the late 80s/early 90s, the main bus route operating RMs (not RMLs) along Streatham High Road was the 159. The 137 (with RMLs until 1991 IIRC) also operated to Streatham Hill.

 

Otherwise in that period most if not all the double deck routes in the Streatham area were MCW Metrobuses (M). Both Brixton and Streatham garages that operated local routes had big M allocations. Leyland Olympians joined the mix in due course, but not really Leyland Titans (T), which were allocated to other parts of London.

 

 

This pretty much nails it, you need to be aware that in the early part of the Network South east era that you may well have had branding on the buses like London General,South London Selkent ect as LT garages came under an area. the later end of NSE you would be thinking private companies like Cowie/Grey Green/Arriva cannot remember when they became Arriva. Brixton Garage (BN) was the last RM operating garage in London and finaly got rid of the RM's Dec 05 as a matter of interest.

[SRman]

I think the others have covered most of the possibilities already but I'll add a couple of other snippets, if I may.

 

The XA Atlanteans were gone before the period the OP wants - all were sold to Hong Kong, including the three that were left with London Country when it was formed.

 

Modern buses delivered or overhauled in the mid to late 1970s had white upper deck window surrounds - this included buses in the T (Titan), M (Metrobus) D/DM/DMS (Fleetlines) and MD (Metropolitans). The L (Olympians) missed out on the white treatment - I remember seeing newly delivered examples at Orpington station in 1984/6, still devoid of advertisements.

 

RMs and RMLs (plus any recovered RMC/RCL vehicles) would have had white bands between the decks rather than cream (garage specials excepted).

 

I would also recommend Ian's Bus Stop site and have had no problems with the links. Try using a different Internet browser or even updating to a newer Internet Explorer version to see if that cures the problems with the links. Besides Internet Explorer, there are Firefox, Opera (my personal favourite), Google Chrome and Safari - there may be others as well.

 

 

EDIT: correction of Olympians' class; should have been L, not O .. sorry.

[Kingstoke Junction]

No Sutton routes have ventured over towards Streatham so that rules out B20s. But one interesting type that ran though Streatham was the VC class Volvo Citybuses with Northern Counties bodywork which were the mainstay of route 133 which ran through Streatham. The other main routes were (with vehicle type - check photos and/or other references as the old memory is a bit hazy!)

109 Croydon and Thornton Heath L class Leyland Olympians

57 Always operated from the western end of the route, variously by Merton (DMS), Norbiton (Metrobus) and London & Country (LR Olympian)

159 Routemasters (RM) from Streatham and Camberwell. RMLs were rare birds until the mid 90s

50/250 Brixton Metrobuses and later L class Leyland Olympians from Croydon/Thornton Heath

249 ?Metrobuses from Streatham

118 Brixton Metrobuses

60 Thornton Heath/ Croydon ?Metrobuses/Olympians

And not forgetting the MCW Metroriders operating out of Streatham on the G1 and G2

 

Many of the Streatham/Croydon/Thornton Heath Olympians/Metrobuses were preceded by B20 DMSs which from memory vanished around 1990.

 

I came across thsi site which contains some route histories http://londonbusesbyadam.zenfolio.com/ including the 50, 57 & 60.

 

Good luck with the layout and hope to see it in its full "South London" glory in due course

 

Rgds

 

Kingstoke JUnction

 

 

[Galtee More]

Thank you very much all, for passing on such a wealth of knowledge and valuable detailed information.

 

Whilst it's very much appreciated, it does mean that several recently acquired buses will now have to be put back on the market !

 

Thanks all, again.

 

Ian

 

PS. I'll keep trying Ian's Buses links.

[Flying Pig]

I was in Streatham from October 85 to late December 88: the following are all taken from notes I made at the time. The Network Southeast brand was of course launched in June 1986.

 

Types seen in Streatham during this period and the routes they operated were:

 

RM - 49 (until 10/07/87), 59 (until 06/02/87), 137, 159 (not Sundays from 12/07/87)

RML - 159 (fairly regular on Sundays until 12/07/87 but unusual otherwise)

DMS - 59 (majority of workings from 07/02/87), 60, 109

MCW - 49 (from 11/07/87), 50 (until end of 1986), 59 (from 07/02/87), 133, 109 (irregular, mostly at weekends), 159 (Sundays from 12/07/87)

Olympian - (from early 1987) 50, 118, 159 (Sundays from 12/07/87), 249, (also first day of opo 59, but not usual thereafter)

Titan - seen once working a Sunday 159 in August 1987 (Camberwell bus)

 

Metro Mk2 M1441, M1442 - seen on 50, 118, 133

Dennis Dominator H1, H2, H3 - (from end of May 1987) 109, 133 (based at Brixton Garage)

Ailsa V1 - seen once August 1987

 

Leyland National - I can't remember for the life of me what services these worked and they weren't frequent.

 

London Country Atlantean - 127a from Streatham Hill Station to Mitcham (possibly SO)

 

RMC, RCL and RMA all appeared on crew training. I saw RMC1480 in London Country green with white LT roundels in Feb 1987.

 

Buses were painted red all over - I don't recall seeing any with white upper window surrounds. MCW, DMS and Olympian had yellow entrance doors only; RM and RML had a narrow white band between decks. RM47 was maintained as Streatham Garage's pet and had the cream band between decks, "London Transport" in gold letters and numbering in gold (it also retained - or had regained - the grilles below the headlights that were nearly always plated over by this time).

 

Another point to consider is that during the period you are modelling London Buses had been split into semi-autonomous operating subsisdiaries, each with their own "brand".

London buses was not split until December 1988, more than two years after NSE was launched. Branding appeared very rapidly thereafter and most buses carried stickers within a few weeks: Streatham, Brixton and Camberwell garages were all in the "London South" group whose logo was Tower Bridge.

 

HTH

[Kingstoke Junction]

 

Leyland National - I can't remember for the life of me what services these worked and they weren't frequent.

 

 

 

I suspect that it was on the 57 running out of either Merton or Norbiton. My hazy memory tells me that I once suffered these things all the way from Kingston to Tooting on several occasions.

[bingley hall]

Another very useful site http://londonbuses.co.uk/ lists all routes with type of bus operated (and how many) and relevant dates when changes occurred. Unfortunately the site is being reconstructed at the moment and only routes 1-100 seem to be available, but definitely worth checking out when up and running again.

[Gwiwer]

Leyland Nationals were not the usual fare on the 57 which was a double-deck route and went from DMS (Fleetline) to M (Metrobus) operation. Without ready access to route maps the only suggestion I can think of offhand is the 289 which ran IIRC from Clapham Common to Tooting and was an LS (National) route. Mobility bus routes in the 900-route number series also used Nationals mostly on once-a-week services sometimes going where no other bus did.

 

The rest of the ground has been pretty well convered above. Routemasters would have carried white waistbands with or without the solid roundel or a local area name; individual vehicles varied. "Show" buses were maintained with original cream waistbands, gold stock numbers and underlined fleet name and usually had the rear hub covers refitted as well which had generally vanished long before NSE days.

 

Streatham never had an allocation of RCL Routemasters - once LCBS disposed of them in the late 70s they mostly went on the 149 or to northern garages as trainers. I believe there was an NBC green RMC attached to AK (Streatham) at one time however.

 

The XA class was extinct by 1972 having been sold mostly to Hong Kong. The Leyland Titan class went to eastern then north-eastern and south-eastern garages not arriving in the south until quite late. However they did work in the Streatham area which was one of the suburbs which saw both Titan and Metrobus operation side by side. Many areas remained exclusive to one or other type.

 

 

[roythebus]

Having lived in Streatham and driven for NSE in that period, the Leyland Nationals did sometimes appear on the 59's from kingston. Remember too we had the 200 from Raynes Park to Streatham, one of the earliest privatised routes, operated by Cityrama using second hand DMS types. they were most unreliabe and the route later passed to Suttonbus.

 

Remember too the night routes, N87, usually a Stockwell DMS and the night 109's from London to Croydon. You could also included a vast variety of coaches as the A23 is the main drag to Brighton!

 

Try modelling 2000, when there was a major farce on the route 60. I was actively involved in running an emergency service when the incumbent company failed to materialise. On the first Saturday, we had over 20, yes 20, vehicle types working on one day!

[roythebus]

ISTR Norbiton ran BL single decks on the 200 before Cityrama took over; that was sometime in the 1980's. just to add a further bit of variety to the mix!

[pauln]

 

London buses was not split until December 1988, more than two years after NSE was launched. Branding appeared very rapidly thereafter and most buses carried stickers within a few weeks: Streatham, Brixton and Camberwell garages were all in the "London South" group whose logo was Tower Bridge.

London Buses was split into districts - Wandle would have covered Streatham. Wandle was then split into South London (Streatham Brixton, Norwoord etc) and London General.

 

Without ready access to route maps the only suggestion I can think of offhand is the 289 which ran IIRC from Clapham Common to Tooting and was an LS (National) route. Mobility bus routes in the 900-route number series also used Nationals mostly on once-a-week services sometimes going where no other bus did.

 

The XA class was extinct by 1972 having been sold mostly to Hong Kong. The Leyland Titan class went to eastern then north-eastern and south-eastern garages not arriving in the south until quite late. However they did work in the Streatham area which was one of the suburbs which saw both Titan and Metrobus operation side by side. Many areas remained exclusive to one or other type.

 

I hesitate to correct a man of your knowledge but I think you mean 189 rather than 289. It was run by Merton and I don't ever remember nationals on it. I am trying hard to think of Titan routes in Streatham but I can't think of any reason they would have got there - Brixton on the 45s and Thornton Heath on the 119s are the closest I can come up with.

 

ISTR Norbiton ran BL single decks on the 200 before Cityrama took over; that was sometime in the 1980's. just to add a further bit of variety to the mix!

 

200 was run by Merton for as long as I can remember. I don't recall BLs on that route and I was working in the area at the time (might be my poor memory though)

[Gwiwer]

Could well have been the 189. An infrequent route (every 30 minutes) and not in the evenings or Sundays at all. The last time I used it the allocation was LS.

 

Titans at Streatham might have been on the 249 from a fading memory though I have a feeling this went from DMS to L (for Limpalong a/k/a Olympian) operation.

 

I also have no record or recollection of the BL type on the 200.

[SRman]

In earlier days, the 200 was, I think, an RF route. RFs were displaced by BLs or BSs so they could have run for a time. After that I seem to recall DMSs. Cityrama also used ex-LT DMS types.

 

I can check some of this later but these are rather fuzzy recalls so I could be barking up the wrong tree.

[Gwiwer]

Jeff I think you will find that the 200 went from RF to SMS to DMS with the occasional stray LS in later LT years. I cannot trace regular allocation or use of BL vehicles here but as always am willing to stand corrected if appropriate. The BS class was confined to former FS minibus routes as they required drivers to be qualified on manual gearboxes which most LT drivers were not (at least routinely) trained on.

[brushman47544]

My memory of specific routes is likely to be as hazy as others, but Gwiwer you may well have been thinking of the 289 as an LS operated route with a low frequency and the 189 as a route reaching Streatham. IIRC the 289 ran around Croydon (I think including to the old airport).

 

Like pauln, I too can't recall any Titan routes along Streatham High Road - I don't think Streatham or Brixton ever had a Titan allocation. I agree the 249 went straight to L.

[Gwiwer]

Brixton (BN) had Titans on the 133 IIRC. Late models as well - I don't think they went in there new.

[brushman47544]

Brixton (BN) had Titans on the 133 IIRC. Late models as well - I don't think they went in there new.

I was intrigued so I've done a rough and ready search using Ian's Bus Stop Titan bus histories, copied and pasted into MSWord so I could do a word search.

 

I stand corrected - it seems that Titans first went to Brixton (BN) around 11/91 primarily for the 59 and 137A and were there for a year or so. Most were from the Walthamstow batch (T300s and T400s). From new, the (not so) nearest allocations were Camberwell (Q), Peckham (PM) and New Cross (NX).

 

Wasn't the 133 a Stockwell (SW) route, or just later in life?

[nse]

I was thinking about a similar period for my layout (due to the recent 3rd rail releases) but to add, for the record, in case others are interested, my observations on the topic.

 

Whilst my memory is hazy for 25 years ago, the area in question was in the Wandle District of London Transport and most of the running order in the area would have been made up of Routemasters (RM/RML), B20 Fleetlines (D), Metrobuses (M) and Nationals (LS). Around 1986 the first Olympians (L) came into stock, early types went to the Selkent area, later deliveries coming into Wandle c. October 1986, going to Norwood (N) and Streatham (AK) with some to Croydon (TC) to help see of the pensionable Fleetlines. ISTR that Streatham (AK) reopened after rebuilding in 1987, the routes being run out of Clapham beforehand. Also, Brixton (BN) garage is at Streatham Hill, as well as St. Reatham having its own garage and Norwood (N) garage not being too far away.

 

Liveries would have been all-over red at this time, although the LBL livery with grey skirts came into existence around 1987 (this comprised grey skirts, London Buses roundel (with yellow bar and red lettering) and a white relief band midway up the body), roundels as a rule under the lower windows, over the door went on overhaul as a general rule, and opo vehicles all with yellow doors. White window reliefs were gone by this time as well (shame they were a 'quality' livery IMHO). Also the district sticker usually was found on the nearest engine shroud, the exception being the Fleetline, which had them on the pillar behind the front door. Once shadow privatised to South London the company logo went back up over the front door with a corresponding logo under the drivers cab and the district sticker removed as it was no longer relevant.

 

As in the train world, be careful with the research as there was a standard Fleetline doing the rounds in Wandle (with an experimental gearbox or engine) and the world of the AVE (Alternative Vehicle Experiment - which happened up the road in Stockwell) is fraught with risk - M1443 - the "mk 3 Metrobus" didn't exist and the Volvo's went to Potters Bar in late 1986, so their period during NSE was limited and the Hs (Dennis Dominators) moved about.

 

Note also with the Metrobus you'll want a later Mk.1 as a rule, given that most of the last batches (BWULs and CBUVs) went to Streatham and Croydon (Croydon had the last Mk.1). I say beware as EFE et al have mainly modelled the early Mk.1's which have straight, rather than mesh, front grilles. Also, the MCW lettering changed during these later batches. That said, some Mk 1's did get to Brixton during the NSE period. They have already modelled one of the two Mk 2's on route 170.

 

I do recall from my 'Red Rover' days in 1986-1988 that Metrobuses from Croydon and Brixton (inc. the Mk. 2's) on the 133 and 249; Streatham Olympians on the 159; RMs and RMLs on 137. The 200 went from LT B20 Fleetline to Standard Fleetline run by Cityrama in the first run of tendered routes in 1986. Fleetlines themselves went from Wandle/South London in the early 1990's.

 

Finally, I recall that, as a general rule the RMs were throughout the period, outlasting NSE, but for the early periods there were Fleetlines and Metrobuses with the odd National from Merton; then Metrobuses and Olympians. There also weren't any BLs in this period as they were at Edgware, Uxbridge and Holloway and I only remember the 200 as a National/Fleetline combo.

 

Hope that helps.

Jason.