AberdeenBill Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Has anybody got knowledge of these ballast hoppers in terms of geographical spread. I am thinking Scotland (Perth or Abredeen) in 1960s and what livery would be applicable? thanks Graham When I was a "wagon spotter" in the 1970s, I never saw a Trout on the Southern or Western Regions, but a handful on the Eastern Region. I would rate them as "distinctly rare"... Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 9, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 9, 2011 My impression is that only the Southern used it to any great extent in the '60s - I dont think it was so much that the other Regions continued with black, more that they just didnt repaint stuff Perhaps they mixed it up from some tins they had left over from the Maunsell era. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 (edited) Tatlow states they were built by Leeds Forge Co not Metro cammell. Axleboxes in pictures are flat front with a single bolt head in the centre so a easy fix if the colour is not a problem ???? LNER version http://www.ehattons.....aspx?SID=35994 The official photograph of 163504 says built at Met Camm and quotes two Patents. The BR ones were built by Met Camm. As you will know Leeds Forge was absorbed into Cammell-Laird & CO Ltd in 1923 and the works closed in 1929 with a transfer of work to the Saltley works which was Metropolitan RCW Ltd until 1919 when Vickers acquired the shares, then in 1929 Vickers and Cammell-Laird & Co Ltd merged to form Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Co. The detail photograph at Hattons appears to have very good likeness of the axleboxes with LNE lettering etc. Early BR ones had these, later they were BR(E) and later still a plain (one bolt head) version was used, as well as occasional 2-piece boxes. They were never numerous, and appear to have mainly been retained on the ex LNER - ER, NER and ScR. The LNER had several batches built at various times, presumably all will be revealed when Wild Swan finally publishes the two remaining volumes in Tatlow's new LNER wagon book series (they have had them for some time!). BR had 113 of diag. 1/580. Paul Bartlett Edited October 9, 2011 by hmrspaul 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 (edited) I think it may be more complicated than that. Isnt it always Paul I have to admit that that was intended to be a glib generalisation; the matter of the apparently black Whales (and Sealion/Seacow) is something we've discussed before Perhaps they mixed it up from some tins they had left over from the Maunsell era. Joking aside, the significance isnt lost on me - it's fairly evident that the SR was pretty keen (compared to other Regions) on repainting dropside ballast wagons and even humble ex-traffic spoil carriers. Edited October 10, 2011 by Pennine MC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 The Met Cam drawings of the BR one are both in the HMRS archive and with Serco at Derby. They seem to have gained the name Herring by then though rather than Trout which is really annoying when you think you've found something about the GWR Herring that doesn't have any preserved examples! There must have been a lot of green paints around in the late 60s from BR(S) coaches as well though I don't know how much was made up by works at a time.Certainly much easier to be a WR modeller without the odd colours for a while! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 The Met Cam drawings of the BR one are both in the HMRS archive and with Serco at Derby. They seem to have gained the name Herring by then though rather than Trout which is really annoying when you think you've found something about the GWR Herring that doesn't have any preserved examples! There must have been a lot of green paints around in the late 60s from BR(S) coaches as well though I don't know how much was made up by works at a time.Certainly much easier to be a WR modeller without the odd colours for a while! Craig Are you sure it was a Trout drawing? There are similar Herring - Diag 1/584. Similar in construction but smaller http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brrivetherring These fishkind names are to give guidance on the wagon type, so if two wagons have similar capacity, unloading arrangements etc then they should have the same name. The same concept is used for TOPS coding, which is why the three letter codes are usually not a suitable way of describing a particular wagon. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 Craig Are you sure it was a Trout drawing? There are similar Herring - Diag 1/584. Similar in construction but smaller http://paulbartlett..../brrivetherring These fishkind names are to give guidance on the wagon type, so if two wagons have similar capacity, unloading arrangements etc then they should have the same name. The same concept is used for TOPS coding, which is why the three letter codes are usually not a suitable way of describing a particular wagon. Ah yes good point, it was one of them then, certainly wasn't the 1/582 it was supposed to be from the index . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37403 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 "Anyway back to them Trout - apparently Cambrian are doing a "Mackerel" soon(ish)" Does anyone know any more about this?this would certainly give more engineers variety especially now the sturgeon kit is being done!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 http://www.cambrianmodels.co.uk/wagon_kits_4mm.html There's a little reference to a GWR P22 ballast hopper which is a "Herring" - sorry my fish recognition was a bit off (unlike the fish) - but still an great addition - lasted well into the early 80's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 If that received Gulf Red livery, would that make it a........ >>I'll get me coat<< 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted October 11, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 11, 2011 A P22 Herring would go down very well with those of us modelling the Forest of Dean/Whitecliffe Quarry. Pity about all the Dogfish/Catfish stand-ins I've built though..... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 A P22 Herring would go down very well with those of us modelling the Forest of Dean/Whitecliffe Quarry. Pity about all the Dogfish/Catfish stand-ins I've built though..... Chris Indeed http://www.flickr.com/photos/midlandexplorerboy/5594857882/ If anyone knows if some of the brake gear was welded to the hopper on these though do tell.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 (edited) Picked mine up today, like Chard I've gone for the N E one as it'll make a better basis for rusty black (and I didnt actually realise til a mate asked me, but Hornby have very peculiarly not done this model in a livery suitable for any part of the BR steam and transition period ). I thought I'd identified more sloppy handrail issues, but it's not as bad as I thought - looking at pics on Paul's site, those on the prototype do have a distinctly contorted shape to them and TBF, they've done a pretty good job reproducing it. And they are wire, not plastic, so the odd less than perfect 90 degree bend should ease out with care. It's a very pleasing model IMO, about the only significant criticism I can make is that the 'valley' of the distinctive reversed stanchions doesnt look deep enough. It's effectively level with the main body panels whereas it should probably go slightly past it, but again TBF I'd imagine that would have made it very difficult to mould. I'd also give them a few extra marks for painting the interior and ballast chutes in a pseudo-rust shade - not mega-convincing, but a good basis for further work. I dont think it's been mentioned yet but Vol 1 of Essery's 'LMS Wagons' reveals that the LMS also had 20 built by Leeds Forge, though only one running number was known to the author Edited October 11, 2011 by Pennine MC 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 I can't wait to get hold of mine; with these dialled into the Engineers' fleet for evaluation, I may retire a couple of Dogfish for attention to detail and attempt the mods on a Mermaid chassis that I read-up on yesterday. I must say, I find the omission of a transition era model not exactly frustrating - the rework is all part of the fun - but certainly perplexing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Picked mine up today, like Chard I've gone for the N E one as it'll make a better basis for rusty black Brilliant idea ! - going to do the same - mine need to be late 1970's en route for scrapping with other odd and curious unfitted wagons (pig-iron opens, etc) in the same train Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 A P22 Herring would go down very well with those of us modelling the Forest of Dean/Whitecliffe Quarry. Pity about all the Dogfish/Catfish stand-ins I've built though..... Chris Being small they would be handy for a lot of modellers, the GWR and BR ones were used on the Eastern, Scotland and Midland. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brherring http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrherring As to the Hornby Trout, yes very strange that the main livery - BR black has not been reproduced! A very strange company! Paul Bartlett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 and with a most curious vacuum pipe support arrangement - bit vunerable I would have thought........... but it is the GW after all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulG Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 As to the Hornby Trout, yes very strange that the main livery - BR black has not been reproduced! A very strange company! Paul Bartlett Paul Can you advise if any photographs of a Trout wagon in BR black livery are available with the lettering clearly visable including any "Return to XXX" details? Regards PaulG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Paul Can you advise if any photographs of a Trout wagon in BR black livery are available with the lettering clearly visable including any "Return to XXX" details? Regards PaulG Given the amount of work Paul has already put into publishing his photos, you could always have a wee look yourself : http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/troutzfo http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lnerballasthop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) I dont think it's been mentioned yet but Vol 1 of Essery's 'LMS Wagons' reveals that the LMS also had 20 built by Leeds Forge, though only one running number was known to the author From Tatlow LNER Wagons I.D as LNER but shorter buffers and 3 link couplings. no other details mentioned Edited October 12, 2011 by micklner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulG Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Given the amount of work Paul has already put into publishing his photos, you could always have a wee look yourself : http://paulbartlett....io.com/troutzfo http://paulbartlett..../lnerballasthop What makes you think I haven't already looked! The reason I asked Paul the question direct is that having looked at his web site there are no c1950s BR photos. However I know he has helped manufactures with photos etc and wondered if he had advised Hornby on a "black" version, hence his comment and could pass on any information. Regards Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 What makes you think I haven't already looked! The reason I asked Paul the question direct is that having looked at his web site there are no c1950s BR photos. However I know he has helped manufactures with photos etc and wondered if he had advised Hornby on a "black" version, hence his comment and could pass on any information. Regards Paul Although a number of Hornby models appear to have been influenced by my photographs they have never been in contact with me. It looks from their adverts that others have been, who do not have a web prescence. I assume you have looked at Cheona etc. and HMRS, personally I have very few 1950s photographs. Paul Bartlett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulG Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Although a number of Hornby models appear to have been influenced by my photographs they have never been in contact with me. It looks from their adverts that others have been, who do not have a web prescence. I assume you have looked at Cheona etc. and HMRS, personally I have very few 1950s photographs. Paul Bartlett Paul Thank you for your reply - I certainly had the impression your services had been "officially" used by manufacturers and read too much into your comment about Hornby not issuing (yet) the BR black version. I have spoken to a number of people in various society's, serched a number of photo lists and looked at photos for sale at various exhibitions - and will be doing so this weekend at Peterborough - but so far, other than a couple of Frank Church photos - which unfortunatly are too "front 3/4" with number/text not visible, not found a clear photo! Regards Paul G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 What makes you think I haven't already looked! Probably because you didnt say you had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 There is a picture of a BR one in Don Rowland's B% Wagons 1st 1/2 million, bit specific though with Glasgow branding. He might have more in his collection but I haven't found one yet amongst the prints i've gone through. Dave Larkin must have some amongst his vast collection, probably not a 50s date but as departmentals his mid 60s photos usually have wagons in original condition amongst them or an easy removal of something like a post '64 data panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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