mow Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 W. Edwards Demming. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming#Work_in_Japan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 DR W Edwards Deming. Amazing man, and meeting him changed my working life. Read his 'Out of the Crisis' if you have 'manager' actual or implied in your job title. It starts with the quote "Who is it that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge" and will likely administer the biggest shock you have ever had in your working life when you realise he is writing that about you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted October 17, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 17, 2011 My last employer did some free deal with X College Company (sic) to get staff to take a correspondence "course" of study about quality issues, with a requirement to reflect the employees' views of how the lessons learned might be applied to said employer. Deming and the quality issue were central to the whole thing. Bored me rigid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neal Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I responded to Dave's original post prior to leaving for work at lunchtime. I had a strange feeling that this would be on it's second page by the time I got back................and here we are! This appears to be an assembly error, and the lack of posters with similar issues suggests that this isn't an endemic fault - just a minor failing of a production line in the far east manufacturing scale models at a much lower price that would be the case in they were made in the EU. The sky is not falling, keep calm, take it back for a replacement/refund and carry on. N Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordie inexile Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 I was glancing at Hornby Magazine Yearbook 3 last night and reading about sound decoder installation in a Bachmann Super D when I realised that Mike Wild had encountered the same problem as yourself. The book was published in 2010 so it seems that the problem with the circuit board orientation is not confined to recent models or specific tender types. The problem was resolved by removing the crosshead screw, rotating the circuit board through 180 degrees and then refitting the screw. The hazards associated with this operation occur as a result of dropping the screw on the floor and banging head on bench/worksurface whilst crawling about the floor trying to retrieve said screw. Hope this helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted October 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2011 The hazards associated with this operation occur as a result of dropping the screw on the floor and banging head on bench/worksurface whilst crawling about the floor trying to retrieve said screw. This is real-world modelling as I have always found it to be! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted October 19, 2011 Author Share Posted October 19, 2011 Hello - folks. Yes, this thread has spawned a monster, even if some seem to be taking the rise a little.... As luck would have it, this was an impulse buy at a shop a long way from here, a bargain spotted on a day trip. Taking it back will cost money, as will sending it in the post. And that's before trying to argue that it isn't fit for purpose. The PCB appears to be well and truly stuck. If its possible to install it the wrong way round, then I stand by my design criticisms (and whilst I'm at it, this thread's title appears to have changed). Why not design said PCB like a phone's SIM card, with an angled corner so the assembler can't make this error. Actually, they might have designed it this way, and its been forced into place on my model, hence why it won't come away from the chassis. The screw mentioned above has been removed, but not lost - yet. In fact, this throws up some design problems with the DCC decoders themselves. Others on here claim that I had put the chip in upside down, but why design the plug/socket arrangement so that its possible to do this ? Granted, the 21 pin chip does look different, as one corner of the pin layout has a pin missing, but it isn't clear and can still be "overcome". And that's before commenting on the 8 and 6 pin arrangements, where its 50/50 whether the chip is in correctly. Look at the PC world, with SATA connections with an L shape, mini and micro usb's that are shaped.......I could go on but you get the drift. As I just want motor control, I'll just get the soldering iron out and hardwire a chip in, but that leaves me with a surplus 21 pin decoder...... Either way, unnecessary effort, aggro and money wasted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted October 19, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 19, 2011 Actually, they might have designed it this way, and its been forced into place on my model, hence why it won't come away from the chassis. The screw mentioned above has been removed, but not lost - yet. Yep, even poka-yoke can be defeated by a determined assembler in a hurry! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 The standard aimed at is not 'only one in a few hundred' but defect rates pushed toward one per billion. Anyone seriously interested should read 'Toyata Production System', or 'Canon Production System' for an insight into what may be achieved. Really, how does that explain why two out of four Canon products I have purchased had defects. One had a failure that required replacement, while the other has a software defect that Canon aren't interested in (unless I pay them to have it fixed!). Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 One inncorrect example out of hundreds is the IMPORTANT part of the post. You can have all the production checks in the world and still one will slip through. Perhaps in Hatfield things are different?? And how do we know it's just one in a few hundred, it only came to light when Dave tried to fit the chip. How many others haven't had a chip fitted yet and are incorrectly assembled, contact Bachmann I say, they need to know. I've had various models with bits glued on at jaunty angles or just plain wrong so, let the manufacturers know.... Regards, Dave Franks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted October 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2011 In fact, this throws up some design problems with the DCC decoders themselves. Others on here claim that I had put the chip in upside down, but why design the plug/socket arrangement so that its possible to do this ? Granted, the 21 pin chip does look different, as one corner of the pin layout has a pin missing, but it isn't clear and can still be "overcome". And that's before commenting on the 8 and 6 pin arrangements, where its 50/50 whether the chip is in correctly. Look at the PC world, with SATA connections with an L shape, mini and micro usb's that are shaped.......I could go on but you get the drift. If you have time to wade thought this detailed thread, you will be pleased to learn that others share your concerns here, and NMRA and some manufacturers are on the case. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/46269-no-more-21-pin-sockets/page__fromsearch__1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveb860 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 The hazards associated with this operation occur as a result of dropping the screw on the floor and banging head on bench/worksurface whilst crawling about the floor trying to retrieve said screw. Hope this helps. I always find one of two solutions help here; 1) a tiny bit of blue tac on the end of the screw driver 2) wear a hard hat whilst retreiving fallen screw. Hope this helps too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold mcowgill Posted October 19, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2011 I always find one of two solutions help here; 1) a tiny bit of blue tac on the end of the screw driver 2) wear a hard hat whilst retreiving fallen screw. Hope this helps too Ah, more from my days of training as a Six Sigma Green Belt, not only have we had poka yoke design but a proper risk assessment and identification of appropriate safety wear for the refitting of a circuit board - well done for modelling in a safe manner Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 I suspect the thread title changed because the original was an OTT reaction to a relatively rare assembly error. Design stupidity would suggest every G2 was the same, which it isn't. I do however agree that feedback on the issue is important to the manufacturer as it may highlight to them ways of improving the design or assembly techniques. The initial title was apportioning blame to the manufacturer before all the facts were known in terms of magnitutude of the problem. It appears you may have been unlucky, but please lets keep calm and keep things in proportion. Leave the OTT headlines to the red tops. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic56 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 It is only a toy train Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Piszczek Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 If you want to put a 21 pin to 8 pin converter in there, even when assembled correctly, you'll still have height problems. It was very simple to just unscrew the PCB and let it fall further aft, then you'll have space to chip it with just about anything... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Really, how does that explain why two out of four Canon products I have purchased had defects. One had a failure that required replacement, while the other has a software defect that Canon aren't interested in (unless I pay them to have it fixed!). Jol I'd assume the book was written before Cameras had software and on chip electronics. You can't really put a pin in a special place to aid assembly and deal with those issues sadly.. Maybe the decoder socket did have an alignment aid and the determined assembler has broken it and got out the Chinese wonder glue! It wouldn't be the first time.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 ESU do a replacement 21 pin circuit board. I got mine today. I have a notion to replace that in the latest class 20 in order to install lights. Hardwiring a 21 pin decoder is going to be difficult. http://www.dccsupplies.com/shop/index.php?cPath=23_219 I put a Lenz Silver in my G2 without any problems - maybe I got lucky. I really can't think of any significant issues with any of the Bachmann products I have. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Thompson Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 It sounds like an assembly error on the part of Bachmann. Take it to your local Bachmann dealer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewlisle Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 I have just read this blog and as some others have said, the best thing to have done would have been to contact Bachmann via their website. Any queries I have had with them have been answered quickly. On a more mundane query than the G2 decoder, I bought a packet of short mini couplings from their stand at the NEC last year. When I came to use them 4 months later I discovered that although the code number and description on the packet was for short mini couplings, in fact they were the long ones. I contacted them via their website, explained the problem and they exchanged them for the correct couplings by return of post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40F Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 It sounds like an assembly error on the part of Bachmann. Take it to your local Bachmann dealer. Or more importantly to where it was purchased Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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