Geoff Endacott Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 A poor layout can be one on which nothing works. That certainly will not entertain the public. Geoff Endacott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapford34102 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Equally it can be a good layout where the operators seem more concerned in what's happening behind the layout than what's going on in front of the backscene Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Huw Griffiths Posted October 21, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2011 I do find it harsh and almost eletist when the original poster stated he has seen some very poor layouts at exhibitions. We have all seen layouts that dont excite our own tastes and some may be no more than skaledale building placed around a settrack base but this kind of layout is likely to be the ones that will entertain the young and keep them interested in modelling. I can see where you're coming from - but I'm not completely sure about the "harsh and almost elitist". I've seen a number of superb, inspirational, layouts at exhibitions - some of these have been enormous - some have been a lot smaller. Unfortunately, I've also seen a small number of "layouts" that could politely be described as diabolical. I've never pretended to be a great layout builder / modeller, or whatever - but, like just about anyone on any model railway forum site, I am interested in railway modelling. If I visit an exhibition, this is likely to take me most of a day - getting there - getting round - and getting back home again. It's also likely to cost me a significant amount of money - as well as the ticket price, I've also got to allow for travel costs and food (which is likely to be rather more expensive than it would be at home). When I get to the exhibition, I expect it to be worth the money, time and trouble involved in going there. I suspect a number of people would agree with me - whether or not they're modellers. For me, this means that I wish to see a reasonable number of layouts - preferably a mix of subject / scale etc. I also expect most of these layouts to be of an acceptable quality - with trains moving most of the time - and worth paying to see. I obviously like to see "showstoppers" - but smaller, or more "basic", layouts also have their place. Near where I live, a number of shows and club open days have included timesavers, inglenooks and yard sections of older layouts - set up to encourage visitors to try our hand at "switching". I've got a lot of time for these - as they encourage visitors to get involved and find out just how enjoyable the hobby is. They also provide an opportunity to interact with "outsiders" and demonstrate that the modellers / club members are the sort of decent human beings they want to get to know a bit better. (This is always the case, right?) I also see nothing wrong with one or two "trainsets", thrown together on a piece of board with no scenery, to encourage some nippers to "have a go" - but I'd feel cheated if an "exhibition", advertised as "the one show you can't afford to miss" consisted of nothing but this sort of fare. One of the reasons I go to exhibitions is to be inspired - to learn how other people have done things that I don't already know. I was throwing together circles of track about 40 years ago - when I was a nipper - so they don't inspire me. The other year, I visited the Cardiff show - as did a young single mother, with her son (he was probably about 6). Neither of these people had any prior connection with the hobby - they just happened to be in the area and looking for something to do. I was enthralled by "Rivendell" - a 7mm NG shunting layout - not the largest of layouts, but I liked it. I also liked the fact that the guys exhibiting this layout were happy to answer visitors' questions. I learnt a lot from this - and I enjoyed doing so. Also enjoying himself was the young boy I mentioned about. He seemed transfixed by most of the layouts (which all seemed to be of decent quality) - and was keen to stay all day. He was also asking loads of sensible questions about the layouts and stands at the show - and the guys manning them were happy to give sensible answers. His mother didn't know where he'd got the interest from - but she was in no doubt he was "hooked". What I'm trying to say is this: I don't think exhibition visitors are looking for hundreds of layouts - each equivalent to "Miniatur Wunderland" or "Pendon". I do think visitors expect to see a reasonable selection of layouts that people take some pride in - that they've put some effort into building and maintaining - and which look at least vaguely credible. I think it helps if layouts have something happening most of the time. I think it also helps if layout exhibitors make some effort to interact with visitors. These are obviously personal views - but they give some idea of what I look for in exhibition layouts. I obviously don't know what most non-modellers would look for - but I know that a decent mix of good quality layouts can enthuse a variety of people. Huw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Good points Huw. This thread has been quite an education for me. The exhibition scene is quite different over here and EMs are obviously not as picky as those in the UK. I think the reason is that there are relatively few layouts on the exhibition circuit. Most of the layouts I see, whether they are North American H0 or British 00 are uninspiring. I hate to see stock that has simply been taken out of the box and running in endless cirlcles. When we exhibit our layout we are acutely conscious that we must entertain and have activity on the layout. Unfortunately this means that we don't do a lot of operation at shows but have 2 or 3 trains per line going around. Not very exciting but the kids enjoy it. There is some shunting but generally aimless. We have done a lot of work on the layout - above and beyond the usual trainset stuff. Most of the points are handbuilt and much of the stock is weathered. I mentioned this before but in addition to talking to spectators about what we've done, we also give the kids a chance to drive trains. We can do this because we have outside connections for our handheld throttles. This makes their day. Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomJ Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I didn't realise that you got petrol, accommodation and meals paid for!! Seriously if either of my layouts were ever finished to exhibition quality I'd be so chuffed to be invited to show them that I'd probably even pay to do so! After all I couldn't think of a more fun weekend than playing trains and chatting to like minded people over a beer or two (actually I can think of a few things better but its high on the list). Unless the show was in Cornwall or Caithness I'd pay petrol to visit it so surely showing is the same. Also a meal and beers is a bit of a jolly so I'd pay for that as well. Mind you as I've had to move house several times due to career and young family my layouts are designed to live in an understairs cupboard or corner of a room and fit in one car. At shows I love seeing small layouts built by one or two people as they really inspire me as to what I can do. The enormous club layouts are very impressive but dont grab my attention as there's no way I could replicate them. BTW this isn't a plea to EMs, there's no way I'll ever finish an exhibition quality layout! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I didn't realise that you got petrol, accommodation and meals paid for!! A layout invited to an exhibition will normally get out of pocket expenses paid, this includes fuel van hire, lunch allowance and if the layout has travelled a long distance overnight accommodation and breakfast on the Friday and Saturday night if the show is two days, normally there will be free teas and coffees too. Evening meals are not normally provided for. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed-farms Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 As an owner of an exhibtion layout I find the best way to get yourself noticed is the web and attending shows. I have my layout listed on this site http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/ and so far it has generated a couple of bookings so clearly that site has benefit. I also track down details for exhibition manages either on here or through the show's website, usually a formal introduction email is sent followed by an actual chat at the show itself - I usually look for invites for the show after the forthcoming one so it gives me a chance to attend as a punter and see what it is like (helps you see if there could be any problems for you at the show). All in all the key seems to be patience and be prepared to do some chasing youself and eventually you will be rewarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 As an exhibition visitor rather than arranging one I cant really add to the topic question but I do find it harsh and almost eletist when the original poster stated he has seen some very poor layouts at exhibitions. We have all seen layouts that dont excite our own tastes and some may be no more than skaledale building placed around a settrack base but this kind of layout is likely to be the ones that will entertain the young and keep them interested in modelling. An exhibition manager has a responsibility to cater for all ages and these shows should be family entertainment from the 'plonk and run' right through to the lavish 'cant believe its a model' I don't think the OP was being elitest, he doesn't seem like a seasoned exhibitor with dozens of shows under his belt and was merely expressing his views, which I personally believe he is entitled to do having paid to get into this particular show (although from memory, this particular show aimed to set a high standard but was criticised for general failings and like many others had to rely on layouts being available). What would have worked in this case is the Exhibition Manager walking the Hall and coupled with feedback from other team members or comments from the Public, possibly speaking to the exhibitors in question and asking informally why their exhibit isn't quite what was expected, there might be a honest excuse such as the usual Gremlins or wayward operators...? They must take the responsibility along with the exhibitor, as it was them who invited the layout in the first place and must have known what they were accepting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
definate maybe Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Huw, maybe eletist was the wrong phrase but all I was trying to suggest (and I think you realise this but just to clarify my point for others and possibly expand on the thread) was that an enjoyable family day out will need layouts that occupy young and old, those who enjoy fun and those who think it should be a true art form. The original poster stated that his motivation was partially down to seeing an exhibiton which included a number of poor and from his description unrealistic layouts. If you are going to the showcase events then I agree these should probably take a back seat but for the local events I am sure the 'madness' layouts may persuade little jimmy that it is a fun and enjoyable hobby (something that a lot of exhibitions goers seem to try to ruin) Modelling should be an activity that can involve everyone, regardless of ability, ages or any of the other barriers that can keep people away from joining a group or taking up a hobby. As anyone who goes along to exhibitions will tell you the majority of visitors and exhibitiors are not youngsters and possibly the fun layouts can help address this. I also agree with a few other comments on here. I have seen some top quality modelling which is let down by either lack of movement or lack of awareness from the operator. At Peterborough on Sunday the overall standard was impressive on both layout building and operations/ operators but a few let themselves down by either letting the same train do 4 or 5 laps?/ loops? of the curcuit without stopping, shunting, nor even a change of speed whilst the operators chatted between themselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottiedog Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 When I take my layout Stainsby ( see Stainsby - LNER late 1930s - in Layout Topics) to exhibitions, one of the best things about them is talking to visitors, fellow modellers and the public alike, young and old. The exchange of ideas etc is particlarly welcome and it is very pleasing to see the interest shown in the hobby by some of the younger generation. There has been the odd time or two, when I have almost lost my voice! The cost of taking my layout to a show is ever on the increase - you don't get much change out of £200.00 for three days van hire and associated fuel - and this along with other escalating expenses must be a worry for organisers. It must not bode well for the future of some shows where to ensure variety layouts may have to be "imported" from a distance. Some of the smaller ones are surely under threat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Let’s face it, (and without mentioning any names, but I’m sure we could all put a few in each), there seem to be four distinct philosophies of exhibition content selection... ‘Showcase’ - The EM selects only the finest (in his opinion) layouts. The EM is himself, probably a modeller and regular exhibitor; and will probably be in post for many years. ‘Cash Spinner’ - The EM has a target to fill xxx square feet of floor space for no more than a pre-determined overall cost. Often these involve ‘professional’ event organisers possibly different each year, rather than experienced modellers who would know what makes a good exhibition layout. ‘Mines bigger than yours’ - The main aim is to cram in as many layouts as possible. If we can squeeze another one in fine, doesn’t matter if it doesn’t match the standard of the rest, or it’s already been seen everywhere it’s another one on the list. (‘cause we’ve GOT to have more than Anytown show…) These tend to arise where there are two or more shows in close proximity that seem to have to compete (though most modellers will go to both anyway!) ‘Keep it in the Family’ - you invite the same bunch of exhibitors back year after year, any you go to their show year after year... You want a jolly weekend with your mates at the punters’ expense. If they’ve build something new, great they can fetch that (whatever standard it may be) otherwise, no matter, bring the same old layout you brought the last four years… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterl Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 There needs to be one between 'Showcase' and 'Cash Spinner' I think. The actual layouts may depend on the target audience, as was mentioned earlier. Some Shows are aimed at the 'serious' modeller and will, or should be of the 'Showcase' ilk; others, and usually smaller local shows, have to be aimed at the local population who may make up 70% of your visitors. They need to see layouts that perhaps might just get them interested in the hobby, and yes we do need more people in the hobby! Also remember that Club's EMs are elected by the members and are responsible to the members. If the Show doesn't work they will not get voted to the position at the next AGM! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverlink Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 I don't think the OP was being elitest, he doesn't seem like a seasoned exhibitor with dozens of shows under his belt and was merely expressing his views, which I personally believe he is entitled to do having paid to get into this particular show (although from memory, this particular show aimed to set a high standard but was criticised for general failings and like many others had to rely on layouts being available). What would have worked in this case is the Exhibition Manager walking the Hall and coupled with feedback from other team members or comments from the Public, possibly speaking to the exhibitors in question and asking informally why their exhibit isn't quite what was expected, there might be a honest excuse such as the usual Gremlins or wayward operators...? They must take the responsibility along with the exhibitor, as it was them who invited the layout in the first place and must have known what they were accepting. I'm really sorry if I was sounding 'elitest' I wasn't meaning to it was that while most of the layouts I observered at this show were of a very high standard with this one layout standing out because to me it looked of a very poor standard. It's not because it wasn't 'my type' of layout after all I've built a shed layout myself! I fully understand the need for less 'super' layouts at smaller shows where cost is everything & I know cost is the same for the big shows however, if I go to a local show & pay £3-00 see half a dozen layouts of reasonable quality buy a cup of tea & a home made cake buy one or two seconhand bits & pieces I usually come away happy. Also my observations at the smaller shows is one of familys & more general public just interested in having a look. With the big shows you have of course more varied layouts & trade but most likely you have to travel some distance pay around £10/£12-00 to get in & in some cases car parking. You will also have a bigger percentage of out & out modellers keen to see up to date layouts. It's therefore imperative you have good quality layouts & not as someone mentioned on the exhibitions thread a train running round & round an oval of track at 900mph! I love this site as it brings together people with a passion for this wonderful hobby whilst at the same time giving others the benefits of their own experiences. I have got some great ideas from what I started & will no doubt be using them in the future. thanks silverlink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 There needs to be one between 'Showcase' and 'Cash Spinner' I think. The actual layouts may depend on the target audience, as was mentioned earlier. Some Shows are aimed at the 'serious' modeller and will, or should be of the 'Showcase' ilk; others, and usually smaller local shows, have to be aimed at the local population who may make up 70% of your visitors.Fair enough Peter, Basically the same as the 'showcase' description but replace the word 'finest' with 'most entertaining'. Still excludes the 'we only invited it cos it's cheap' and 'little happening' layouts which was the main point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Huw Griffiths Posted October 22, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2011 Still excludes the 'we only invited it cos it's cheap' and 'little happening' layouts which was the main point... Personally, I view these layouts as sub-standard - when I try to recall which layouts I've seen at exhibitions, these ones seem to sink without trace - totally unmemorable, for all the wrong reasons. Huw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Good points Huw. This thread has been quite an education for me. The exhibition scene is quite different over here and EMs are obviously not as picky as those in the UK. I think the reason is that there are relatively few layouts on the exhibition circuit. Most of the layouts I see, whether they are North American H0 or British 00 are uninspiring. I hate to see stock that has simply been taken out of the box and running in endless cirlcles. When we exhibit our layout we are acutely conscious that we must entertain and have activity on the layout. Unfortunately this means that we don't do a lot of operation at shows but have 2 or 3 trains per line going around. Not very exciting but the kids enjoy it. There is some shunting but generally aimless. We have done a lot of work on the layout - above and beyond the usual trainset stuff. Most of the points are handbuilt and much of the stock is weathered. I mentioned this before but in addition to talking to spectators about what we've done, we also give the kids a chance to drive trains. We can do this because we have outside connections for our handheld throttles. This makes their day. Cheers John Interesting viewpoint from outside of the UK, I suppose when shows are infrequent and you have to travel further to them, you might be less critical and more accepting of what is available. Perhaps there are too many shows in the UK at the moment, considering the hobby is supposed to be recovering from a major downturn be must have alot of people willing to attend and even be selective as to which events they go to, otherwise alot of exhibitions wouldn't be viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Regarding the criteria of 'something happening'; what should that something be? The large layouts, often of a continental nature, with multiple trains rattling round and round constantly leave me cold. I recall once being at a show and seeing someone I knew operating his well known, high quality, branch terminus by himself. He asked me if I would take over for a spell to give him a chance to get some lunch and a quick look round the rest of the show. He was surprised when he came back to see people standing three deep in front of his layout and that I was nearly at the end of my first run through his sequence. In the time he would have normally been through it three times. I think what happened was that by slowing it down, largely through my unfamiliarity with it than any intent on my part, it seemed more like the trains were running for a purpose rather than just running back and forth and that drew people into watching them rather than just looking at them. They stayed to see what the trains were doing instead of just looking to see what they were and then moving on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Interesting viewpoint from outside of the UK, I suppose when shows are infrequent and you have to travel further to them, you might be less critical and more accepting of what is available. Perhaps there are too many shows in the UK at the moment, considering the hobby is supposed to be recovering from a major downturn be must have alot of people willing to attend and even be selective as to which events they go to, otherwise alot of exhibitions wouldn't be viable. Railfar was held in Ottawa last weekend. It is one of the big events of the year for us (in fact there are only 2 and another every other year in Toronto). Yet the show had only 5 layouts including ours. I think the vast majority of people (especially over here) have little interest in railways (despite the country owing its development to rail) and most visit the event for the sake of the children who always want to see trains going 'round. I noticed that people were at least 2 deep around ours from time to time so I think we were doing something right in this context. It was refreshing for me to be able to talk to at least 3 P4 modellers. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.