Solvent Link with Parkinson's Disease

[Guest notascoobie]

Good Morning,

 

A news item on the BBC website shows an established link between some solvents and Parkinson's Disease:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15639440

 

Tricloroethane, perchloroethylene and carbon tetrachloride are named as having a link to the illness. Other solvents have links to all sorts of horrible side effects.

 

I know of 2 modelling aquaintances with Parkinson's and wonder whether we, as modellers, need to club together in some way to promote a wider understanding of the risks of the materials and chemicals we use?

 

Thoughts, ideas and attacks on my scaremongering appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Vernon

[Andy Y]

Hopefully, in hobby usage, any exposure to such compounds would have limited effects but on an industrial scale I do think there's some long term liabilities; remember what dry cleaners used to smell like (and I used to use Carbon tetrachloride as a track cleaner :s )

['CHARD]

This one struck me, as my father worked intimately with these compounds his entire working life, as a Technical Manager in the adhesive industry. He was diagnosed with Parkinsons some six years or so ago, and fortunately in his case its progress is currently very slow, his symptoms mild, and prognosis good. However, this one really has raised my antennae today.

[Fat Controller]

You think you're worried- I used to use 'trike' to clean lorry brakeshoes off, before replacing the (asbestos) brake-linings...Prior to that job, I'd worked in a chemical plant in Avonmouth. One corner of this dealt with breaking bulk on a range of unpleasant solvents- we were uncertain if it was the scrumpy or the solvents affecting the fellow who worked on this job.

[Guest Max Stafford]

I'm always pretty careful around this stuff these days, especially the plastic weld and take the greatest of care to to make any physical contact with it. I try to keep the shed door open when I'm using. If not I often wear my spray mask if I'm going to be spending any time in there with solvents in use.

 

Dave.

[Dave777]

Good Morning,

Thoughts, ideas and attacks on my scaremongering appreciated.

 

I saw it too, but didn't get much further than 'Now what do I use that contains these things?'. I don't think you're scaremongering, but perhaps we could channel things into highlighting the specific items that modellers use that may be harmful. The BBC simply says 'glue' for example, so maybe we need to find out if Superglue is dangerous and Pritt stick isn't, for example, instead of 'all glue is dangerous'.

[Kenton]

Carbon tetrachloride has been known as a liver carcinogen for many years.

 

However I can remember my student days boiling it up in big open vats at BDH Poole. (among other noxious chemicals)

 

IMO the usual BBC level of reporting and slide on the road to the red top's sensationalist style of reporting.

[Ian J.]

Carbon tetrachloride has been known as a liver carcinogen for many years.

 

However I can remember my student days boiling it up in big open vats at BDH Poole. (among other noxious chemicals)

 

IMO the usual BBC level of reporting and slide on the road to the red top's sensationalist style of reporting.

I wonder if any got into the atmosphere when the plant exploded in the 80s? Could be quite a few of the population contaminated (including me) if that had happened.

[Douglas G]

I'm always pretty careful around this stuff these days, especially the plastic weld and take the greatest of care to to make any physical contact with it. I try to keep the shed door open when I'm using. If not I often wear my spray mask if I'm going to be spending any time in there with solvents in use.

 

Dave.

 

I have been wondering about Plastic Weld recently myself. I always open the window when using it and try to be as near to the window as possible, but nevertheless I find I wake up next morning with a headache.

 

Would a spray mask stop the solvents being breathed in? I thought a spray mask was to remove paint droplets from the air that is breathed in.

 

Douglas

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I am doomed then. The heavyweight ultrasonically agitated trich degreasers which at one time I had to monitor for efficiency regularly 'spilled' vapour when the roller doors were opened, if the wind was gusty. But that was nothing compared to the Saturday when the usual use was being made of the soon to be drained degreasers; every amateur mechanic on the work force sending car parts through on the conveyor. Inevitably one day something wasn't well secured and tore a gash in the tank. Quite a buzz...

 

I spent a lot of my early career around fairly substantial use of organic chemicals. The only people I knew who have died as a proven direct result were those unfortunate enough to be exposed to vinyl chloride monomer, which causes a savage liver cancer.

[Kenton]

I wonder if any got into the atmosphere when the plant exploded in the 80s? Could be quite a few of the population contaminated (including me) if that had happened.

I was there in summer 68. Scary days looking back but quite the norm for the time. Emptying dozens of bottle of that and many other chemical (ether, toluene, ...) into a large separating flask, stirring with a paddle and then boiling off the solvent under steam to get a few grams of crystals. All good fun at the time when we were supposed to know what we were doing. H&S just was not part of the game. Poole was an interesting site.

 

IIRC that fire was in 1988, some 20 years later. I doubt if some of the dubious practices of earlier years were still in place though it must have been a disater waiting to happen. Wasn't there a big evacuation some sort of peacetime record?

[Ravenser]

Serious question - what do we use that actually contains these solvents?

 

Carbo tet has been banned for years (I remember a colleague at work producing a bottle from his desk drawer for cleaning purposes but that was almost a quarter of a century ago and I think it was banned even then)

 

Tricloroethelene rings faint bells as possibly a plastic solvent but I'm no chemist

 

I'm pretty careful about keeping windows open when working with solvents (in cold snaps you might be restricted to cardboard buildings - PVA hasn't been reported as a health hazard yet) . I'm aware that if you heat cyanoacrylates (superglue) they may give off cyanide - so don't solder anything that's been superglued. Similarly Iain Rice pointed out years ago that some plastic solvents decompose to give off chlorine or phosgene if heated - so if you inhale the fumes through a lighted cigarette or pipe you'll do yourself no good. But Parkinsons and skin absorption weren't risks I'd flagged up...

 

Can those with technical backgrounds advise if any of the following contain the solvents specifically cited is this report?

 

- Plastic Weld

- Humbrol Liquid Poly

- Slaters Track and Mechanism cleaner

[Pugsley]

Can those with technical backgrounds advise if any of the following contain the solvents specifically cited is this report?

- Plastic Weld

- Humbrol Liquid Poly

- Slaters Track and Mechanism cleaner

I'm 99% sure that none of the solvents mentioned in that report are in Plastic Weld or the Humbrol Liquid Poly. I can't vouch for the Slaters product, as I've never used it, and as it is a track and mechanism cleaner it is possible that it could contain TCE.

 

I've still got some CTC around here somewhere, I'll be using that a little more sparingly in future!

[Guest Max Stafford]

 

I have been wondering about Plastic Weld recently myself. I always open the window when using it and try to be as near to the window as possible, but nevertheless I find I wake up next morning with a headache.

 

Would a spray mask stop the solvents being breathed in? I thought a spray mask was to remove paint droplets from the air that is breathed in.

 

Douglas

 

 

Douglas; the mask has fume filters fitted. It's the one I use when I'm cleaning the airbrush with cellulose.

 

Dave.

[Douglas G]

 

 

Douglas; the mask has fume filters fitted. It's the one I use when I'm cleaning the airbrush with cellulose.

 

Dave.

 

Thanks for that Dave - I didn't know masks could filter out solvent fumes. It might be the solution for me.

 

Douglas

[Jenny Emily]

Worrying. The BBC reported the guilty chemical as the nebulously named 'TCE' in the reports I heard. Only now do I find out that TCE is in fact trichloroethane. I recall that certainly Humbrol poly cement had 1-1-1 trichloroethane in it when I was a child, and maybe still does.

[Pugsley]

Worrying. The BBC reported the guilty chemical as the nebulously named 'TCE' in the reports I heard. Only now do I find out that TCE is in fact trichloroethane. I recall that certainly Humbrol poly cement had 1-1-1 trichloroethane in it when I was a child, and maybe still does.

Nope, it's definitely trichloroetheylene in the Parkinsons report, not 1,1,1 trichloroethane (methyl chloroform). TBH, the use of both of these solvents has been phased out in the EU from the late 90's and early 00's, so it's unlikely that any product that you encounter will contain either of them, I'm not sure about the US though, they're normally a bit behind on these things!

[Darth Vader]

 

Thanks for that Dave - I didn't know masks could filter out solvent fumes. It might be the solution for me.

 

Douglas

You need to be careful as to the type of cartridge that you fit to your mask. They all look the same, but are very different. The one to look for when filtering out solvents should contain carbon or charcoal and have a brown coloured band.

Cartridges used for dust will not stop solvents.

If you want really good protecteion then go for a full face respirator, this will give you eye protection and they give a better seal around the face. The half face ones do not always give a good seal, it depends on the shape of a persons face.

None of this stuff is cheap either.

Oh, the carbon cartridges have a shelf life. They will continue to abrorb nasties even if you are not wearing the mask. If you want to extend the life of the cartridge then remove it from the mask and keep it in a sealed platic bag and squese out as much air from the bag as poosible.

[ForestPines]

I recall that certainly Humbrol poly cement had 1-1-1 trichloroethane in it when I was a child, and maybe still does.

 

It was the standard go-to solvent we used in organic chemistry experiments when I was at school in the early 90s! So if it is that dangerous, a few million people in the 25+ age bracket will have been doused in the stuff!

[Kenton]

As so often with these "scaremongering" stories it is all relative. As far as toxicity is concerned it is the dose received and period of time that dose was received. In other words there is a maximum threshold or acute dose that will produce an effect and a continuous or regular exposure or chronic dose that will produce the same or a similar or even quite different effect.

 

The big problem with all toxicity studies is that they tend to be based on acute doses, often far in excess of doses encountered in the general population and frequently tested in animals that have a different physiology or in culture medium. You simply cannot experiment on humans at the doses required to generate any potential adverse effect. Chronic toxicity studies can only be made as statistical population studies. Most of which should be regarded as very limited. The parameters are very variable and are virtually impossible to rule out. Not only that but the proof of exposure is poor to start with. Most of the population will be unaware of minor exposure and therefore the sample is very biased. At best these studies are only vaguely indicative, are certainly not conclusive and are blown out of all proportion in terms of their importance by poor reporting.

[TheGhostofNigelGresley]

Hear, hear.

 

Most of us would be lucky to get to the modelling shed without contracting swine/avian flu or being struck down by e.coli first in any event.

[TheGhostofNigelGresley]

I forgot legionaires disease, BSE and CJD - and one should never do that.....

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... You simply cannot experiment on humans at the doses required to generate any potential adverse effect ...

Make that 'should not' instead of 'cannot', as regrettably the facts indicate that it certainly can be done, and some parties have been willing to do it...

 

To expand a little on the the great difficulty of assessing toxicities and effects based on estimated exposures, a poor fellow I knew died of a very unusual respiratory tract cancer, and the finger was pointed at a particular exotic solvent he had worked with for several years. But then it was found that during wartime service he had been exposed to the combustion products of a chemical works fire, with serious repiratory tract injury that had nearly killed him at the time. Confounding factors.

 

Same thing with smoking. I well remember when powdered PTFE was found to induce flu-like symptoms by ingestion as the combustion product of the powder on cigarettes. It turned out that some of the production crew had worked this out several years earlier and were using it to pull sickies, getting sent home with elevated temperatures. If there is a long term problem from that is it the fags or the PTFE combustion product?

[Edwin_m]

Same thing with smoking. I well remember when powdered PTFE was found to induce flu-like symptoms by ingestion as the combustion product of the powder on cigarettes.

 

I don't think there is any parallel with smoking here. There's enough evidence out there to be pretty clear that smoking kills about one in three of those who partake. Everyone knows whether they smoked or not and roughly how much (though some may not say) and the number of smokers is quite enough to be statistically significant. With these solvents, as pointed out, many will not know or remember what solvent they were exposed to, still less be able to define how much, and both the absolute numbers with high exposure and the risk of this leading to Parkinsons are probably (though we can't be sure) much smaller.

 

Regarding the relative toxic effects of the different constituents of cigarettes, other than deciding nicotine is relatively safe (for use in cigarette substitutes) that's surely the medical research equivalent of rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. People who stand a one in three chance of dying from smoking probably aren't going to be too concerned about whether one type of cigarette is slightly less deadly than another.

 

It's also proven that smoking and asbestos are far more likely to be lethal together than separately, and the same may be true of other substances.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

No dispute about the hazards associated with smoking. In respect of understanding what may or may not be harmful from other exposures to other possibly detrimental agents, a history of smoking is a very significant confounding factor. The effects of those other agents may be insignificant in comparison, masked, or exacerbated, and there is no reliable method for afterward picking out what exactly did what.