sleeper trains to be axed?

[Revolution Mike]

I was unaware of an immediate threat of life-expiry between now and the year end (ref. funding condition). Granted, they won't last forever...

 

But that is a straw man argument as no one is claiming that. Osborne is finally making a belated attempt at Keynesian stimulus to the economy.

 

I don't think you'll find I'm a follower of fashion. I just like to look at things pragmatically:

 

Something has to give to find the other half of the money - hence my comment about it landing Holyrood in a tight spot.

Given that the Scottish Exec are looking at value for money in the Scotrail operation, springing a 'now or never' offer like that, (reportedly) without prior discussion is ill advised, if you do want a constructive beneficial outcome.

 

Doesn't come out of thin air.

 

Indeed but if you want to be pragmatic then don't look a gift horse in the mouth! Particularly given the Tories record with rail.

 

Though I agree if made without consultation then it is pretty poor.

[Gwiwer]

shocked to discover there were no showers on the train

An increasing number of users seems to feel the same way. While showers are available at London Paddington and Euston (also I believe at Glasgow Central and Edinburgh) I don't think they are anywhere else. Taking a morning shower has become a regular routine over more recent years and one in which the British are slowly catching up with World leaders Australia. While the rail service in Australia is generally abysmal there are at least on-board showers for sleeping car users.

 

However in looking at such things we are at risk of placing the cart before the horse. The service itself needs to be sustainable commercially or operate under funding guarantees. There should be 5 - 10 years left in the Mk3 sleepers; age alone is not the determinant of fitness for service. Remember they only make one trip per day and generally at lower speeds than their daytime equivalents. A Mk3 HST trailer of the same age will have been subjected to far more stress running for perhaps 18 hours a day at up to 125mph for example.

 

Inverness and Penzance take some pride in their sleeper sets; any failure on their part reflects poorly on a small depot and a small team of staff.

 

Once w have secured the service for the future then we can look at the costs of new rolling stock and how that might be funded. And traction since FGW are having persistent issues with their 57s and hire in help on a rather frequent basis, while the Caledonians as noted above sometimes suffer from power : weight issues with a 90 though are generally reliable.

 

And while on-board showers will make the service more attractive there are sometimes precious few spare berths available now with FGW finding it necessary to have every one of their sleepers in service on some nights and with every useable berth (there was also a shortage of bedding reported in a Night Riviera topic) booked.

[rodent279]

Good to see FGW are getting good loadings, have to say I was unaware of how sucessful it was. Haven't been on the Night Riviera since Feb 79, so due a trip really.

My experience of the Caledonian Sleeper to FW & Inverness in recent years has been generally good, with decent loadings even at the end of Jan when I usually go. I do find the breakfast a bit disappointing though. Nowadays the lack of even communal showers is more of an issue then when the Mk3's were first specced. As mentioned earlier the Barcelona-Paris sleeper has toilets in each compartment and a few compartments with showers. If the Mk3's had toilets in each compartment then I think they would be comparable with anywhere else.

I would think as pointed out earlier that the bodyshell & running gear should have at least 10 years life left in them given the use they get, so maybe what we will get is a thorough refurbishment.

 

As an aside, the 1984-5 GBPTT lists no less than 13 sleeper service "flows" M-F!

4 to/from KX, 2 each to Aberdeen & Edinburgh, & vv

6 to/from Euston, 1 to Inverness & vv, 1 to Inverness/FW & vv, 1 to Stranraer & vv, 1 to Perth/Glasgow & vv, 1 to Glasgow (with Carlisle portion) & vv, 1 to Manchester/Liverpool & vv, 1 Holyhead-Eus

1 Bristol-Edinburgh/Glasgow & vv

1 Glasgow/Edinburgh-Inverness & vv

1 London-Penz (with Plymouth portion) & vv

[Guest Max Stafford]

 

Do you smell what I smell?

 

Absolutely.

 

I suspect this is probably a 'smoke and mirrors' exercise that will be quickly forgotten. Watch out for repeats of the announcement when burial of other less palatable news is required...

 

Dave.

[westie7]

 

Absolutely.

 

I suspect this is probably a 'smoke and mirrors' exercise that will be quickly forgotten. Watch out for repeats of the announcement when burial of other less palatable news is required...

 

Dave.

 

And it's already gone from the main news page on the BBC Jockland website !

Mark

[caradoc]

Something I've not seen mentioned yet is the passenger capacity of the Mark 3 Sleeper vehicles: Even if every compartment has 2 occupants, an SLE carries 26 and an SLEP 24 persons max. If showers were to be installed these numbers would presumably be even lower. In an era of very fast daytime trains, low cost flights and motorways, can the very high cost of running these trains really be justified ?

[Gwiwer]

can the very high cost of running these trains really be justified ?

 

That is a commercial decision for the operators and one which goes hand-in-hand with the requirements of the franchises.

 

Overnight trains can easily beat overnight road travel for comfort and usually for journey time. They avoid the need for unsocially-early starts in order to arrive at a destination mid-morning when in time for breakfast would have been better. Heading outward from London the sleepers offer the only decent morning arrival at many destinations. What time does the first daytime connection arrive in Dundee, Aberdeen, Aviemore or Inverness for example? The first up train of the day from Penzance arrives in London after 10.00 (having started at 05.05 and caused intending passengers to require an alarm call perhaps as early as 03.30) and a full five hours after the sleeper upon which it is possible to remain peacefully in bed until around 07.30 should you wish.

 

They provide a service which air cannot offer. While many users travel between the major cities there is no matching air service to cover most journey options. Crewe - Corrour or Preston - Perth are simply not possible by air and there is no close air equivalent at all on the Night Riviera route.

 

That the services remain generally busy is evidence that they are in demand; that they are costly to provide is not in doubt; whether the cost of that service be fully met by the passenger is for the operator to determine and if we still lived in BR days when seated stock could be used for day services as well (as it was from the Night Riviera and some other trains for some years) then some costs could be spread.

[Catkins]

There has been some mention of the Nightstar stock as possible replacements for the sleepers, but IIRC the vehicles weighed close on 40 tonnes, and as has been mentioned they were a bid complicated when it came to the internal plumbing - I would ask how the Canadians are getting on with the ones they brought.

 

I would have thought that IF the sleepers are viable, the only option for replacement stock is to go abroad and look at scaling the stock to fit, but as the Mark 3s were constructed in the very late 1970s - early 1980s they still have life left in them, it is the Mark 2 stock that will be more likely to need replacement first, and that could be the problem.

 

Edit - Could one of the Caledonian Sleepers be ran along the ECML to Kings Cross?

[frobisher]

Something I've not seen mentioned yet is the passenger capacity of the Mark 3 Sleeper vehicles: Even if every compartment has 2 occupants, an SLE carries 26 and an SLEP 24 persons max. If showers were to be installed these numbers would presumably be even lower. In an era of very fast daytime trains, low cost flights and motorways, can the very high cost of running these trains really be justified ?

 

I recently used the Sleeper service from Dundee for the first time in 20+ years and found it to be good value for money for what I was after. If I'd travelled down on a daytime service, I'd have lost two additional days plus two nights in a hotel. Early morning flights would have meant struggling through the London rush hour, or paying the premium for getting to City Airport. The return lflights would pretty much have meant staying overnight in London regardless of which airline I flew with.

 

Even flying with EasyJet, it ended up costing more than a first class berth, plus the extra hassle with travelling into central London. It appeared to me that most lone travellers on that trip with sleeping berths were paying the first class supplement.

 

As it stood, my meetings that day were within walking distance of Euston, and my office in Dundee is 300 yards from the station. Would I pay a supplement for an ensuite with shower - hell yes! Stick £100 on the fair and I'd still be saying yes.

[frobisher]

I would have thought that IF the sleepers are viable, the only option for replacement stock is to go abroad and look at scaling the stock to fit, but as the Mark 3s were constructed in the very late 1970s - early 1980s they still have life left in them, it is the Mark 2 stock that will be more likely to need replacement first, and that could be the problem.

 

As I understand it, there are quite a few MK3 sleepers in storage/awaiting scrapped as they are harder to repurpose than other MK3 stock. However, if what you're wanting is dedicated nighttime stock they are the almost perfect starting point. They already have controlled emission toilets, and would probably respond sympathetically to rebuilding the interior into compartments, say merging two berths into a single seated compartment), opening out a chunk of compartments into a lounge area, stuff like that.

[Gwiwer]

I'm not sure how many of those Mk3 sleepers which have come out of traffic (a) actually still exist, (B ) are not already owned by someone else (such as barracks on heritage lines) and (c ) are still in a state from which they can be returned to traffic. I suspect the total would be actually quite small.

 

Once a decision is made to retain overnight services the next step is to develop and procure all-new trains for the purpose. If that work began tomorrow they might not be in service for 2 - 3 years; given that the required decisions are still some time away the Mk3 (and Mk2 lounge / seated cars) stock is going to have to keep going for at least 5 years and probably longer. It is also not possible to replace the Mk2 coaches with Mk3 on the Caledonians as I understand they would then exceed the maximum permitted train length.

[rodent279]

I agree with all your comments Gwiver, esp. regarding the point about journeys like Crewe-Perth, for which there is no flying alternative. The sleepers do fill a (small) but important niche market. When you look into the true cost of flying, ie not the headline grabbing £1 offers which are not what they really seem, it's usually little if any cheaper, and can involve unsociably early starts.

 

The one sleeper service I wish they'd never axed is Bristol-Glasgow/Edinburgh. I know the connection into Crewe is not bad nowadays, but to get to FW or Inv, that means you are not getting into bed until midnight. It'd be cracking to have that one back, but I suspect it won't happen.

 

I have fond memories of going on holiday by rail-sea-rail on the sleeper from Calais or Boulogne to places like Viareggio, Venice, Austria etc. Leaving the UK midday & arriving on the Italian rivieria the following morning-now that's what I call travelling!

[Gwiwer]

The cross-country overnight (seats and sleepers Bristol - Edinburgh / Glasgow) was a very handy train indeed but in my experience not always well-used. Certainly not south of Birmingham. It was however the last passenger train to feature scheduled banking in the UK. I usually travelled in the last coach (an early Mk2 BSO) in order to maximise the experience of 2x37 coming on at Bromsgrove for the shove up Lickey. After dark the sounds and sparks from those was always something to behold and I don't consider myself to be a "thrash" fan.

 

It was also a handy way for a resident of Cornwall to "track-bash" the nether regions of Scotland on a 2-day "box" (staff pass) but of course that generated no revenue!

[Revolution Mike]

What Gwiwer and Frobisher said!

 

One thing that does strike me is if the Caledonian that splits is too long, then why not run it as multiple trains of longer length than the individual portions, but then we are back into issues of cost and stock availability.

 

I get the impression that this is all being looked at the wrong way round ie we/Scotrail are trying to shoe horn in at cheapest cost (for which I don't blame them) a potentially compromised service, rather than flipping it on the head and looking at what could be best practice and what does the market want (and what price will they pay).

 

Overnight rail travel is a great time saver if it can be made to pay its way and fit in with maintenance requirements.

[rodent279]

And in fact if I'm not mistaken, since the Glasgow/Edinburgh sleeper doesn't stop at Crewe nowadays, you have to go via London from the west country to get a sleeper.

[westie7]

 

That is a commercial decision for the operators and one which goes hand-in-hand with the requirements of the franchises.

 

They provide a service which air cannot offer.

 

Fully agree with both of these comments, Firstly the commerce of this service is why there is a review on. One cant just fling money at it only to find out later on that its a loser. I'm confident we'll find that the outlay by Holyrood for this service is justified and may even need more investment. Which leads me to my next comment. it is a service that is not comparable with air on many fronts.

 

And as you correctly stated above "Once a decision is made to retain overnight services". I have no doubt in this!

 

Maybe its about time someone changed the title of the thread.

 

Mark

[Gwiwer]

Th fact is that through the 70s and early 80s overnight travel was in a steep decline. That reflected a general downward trend in passenger numbers across the network but was more marked than the drop in daytime passengers.

 

This brought about the demise of many overnight workings despite the significant investment in a sizeable fleet of Mk3 sleeping cars many of which were effectively surplus to requirements from the day they arrived.

 

When you look at the sleeper network for 1975, as was noted above, there were multiple trains offered on most major routes. Typically there was a "fast" sleepers-only train and a slower seats and sleepers train between London and Penzance, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen. These were reduced to just a single train and then cut further to be the combined trains we have today while the lesser-used trains (such as Stranraer) became portions and were then withdrawn altogether. Changes in Anglo-Irish shipping killed off the Holyhead and Milford Haven services.

 

The more recent dramatic upsurge in passenger numbers could not have been reasonably foreseen at the time. Overnight trains now take more passengers than they have for perhaps 20 - 30 years. Sectorisation and privatisation did no favours as trains which once included seated and sleeping passengers, parcels, newspaper and sometimes mail could no longer do so and each had to run separately and stand on its own commercial two feet. We know the result of that in terms of parcels, newspaper and mail traffic; it has all been lost when most could probably have been retained.

 

Whether there is scope for expanding the network is debatable. The costs would be high. Putting on an all-seats economy train aimed at the budget market may not draw sufficient revenue if it were only used by the likes of Britrail and All-Line Rover holders; to make such a service attractive it might require below-cost fares to be offered which is commercially untenable. Expanding the existing pattern of seats and sleepers has been discussed above; basically there is little if any rolling stock available to do so (and FGW would probably jump at the chance of obtaining a couple more sleeping cars if they could) and splitting the Caledonians into three trains massively increases the total cost of that operation while potentially not recovering sufficient of that cost to be justified.

 

Either way it's a tough call. The one call to not make is to withdraw these train altogether.

[AngusDe]

I used the sleeper for 10 years for a near monthly commute for TU activities, firstly from Leuchars and subsequently from Lossiemouth, to London. Over the years I was amazed at the breadth of significant "movers and shakes" you'd see on these trains, and have no doubt that these trains support economic activity far greater than the marginal cost of the subsidy they appear to require.

 

For me, being able to do a full 12 hour dayshift Tuesday, o/night to London, full day of meetings, and o/night back in time for a 12 hour shift on Thursday was great. Perhaps I flew 10% of the time, but the train was always less hassle and less stressful!

 

Booking them was, however, always problematical. Even visiting the booking office in Elgin, weeks in advance, the guys could see on the screen empty berths on both the Aberdeen and Inverness sleepers but were unable to book any of them etc. Pity I wasn't doing it 40 years earlier when there was a through sleeper from Lossiemouth to London, lol!

 

Whilst there appears to be a political will to maintain the sleeper services that remain, it is very much run on a shoe string, but it is interesting to see that there does appear to be some political will to fund investment to sustain the services into the future. However, I fear as others have suggested, this is political grandstanding by the Tories. Yesterday on Radio Scotland there was a woman from the loony right "Tax Payers Alliance" positively frothing at the mouth at the very suggestion of investing in sleeper services when there were non subsidised flights and Stagecoach buses available etc.. I think sleeper services are just pawns in a much bigger picture.

 

Angus

[rodent279]

Did they in fact miss a trick when privatising by not putting all the sleepers in the hands of one operator? XC perhaps? IIRC sleepers were a part of the InterCity business.

[The Stationmaster]

Did they in fact miss a trick when privatising by not putting all the sleepers in the hands of one operator? XC perhaps? IIRC sleepers were a part of the InterCity business.

No. What happened was that they Anglo-Scottish sleepers could not be fitted into an IC franchise because of the extent of their losses and the likely outcome would be that they would be withdrawn. Chris Green who was the then boss of Inter-City persuaded various Scottish politicians that the sensible idea would be for the sleepers to go into the Scotrail franchise because the place which would lose out if they went would be Scotland. The politicians duly decided that they had thought of this great idea in the first place and the Anglo-Scottish sleeper services were put into the Scotrail franchise with - I think - some revenue support.

[D6975]

 

As an aside, the 1984-5 GBPTT lists no less than 13 sleeper service "flows" M-F!

4 to/from KX, 2 each to Aberdeen & Edinburgh, & vv

6 to/from Euston, 1 to Inverness & vv, 1 to Inverness/FW & vv, 1 to Stranraer & vv, 1 to Perth/Glasgow & vv, 1 to Glasgow (with Carlisle portion) & vv, 1 to Manchester/Liverpool & vv, 1 Holyhead-Eus

1 Bristol-Edinburgh/Glasgow & vv

1 Glasgow/Edinburgh-Inverness & vv

1 London-Penz (with Plymouth portion) & vv

 

I remember doing an overnight at Doncaster in the late 80s and seeing loads of sleeper services.

The ECML electrification work saw these 'temporarily' switched to the WCML. Sleepers were to be 91 hauled as far as Edinburgh when reinstated, except that it never happened of course. The beginning of the decline of sleeper services. The later loss of the West Country - Scotland sleeper was a great pity - it was my normal way of going on holiday to Scotland. The only practical way of doing it overnight nowadays is via London.

[96701]

Last time I looked the Mark 3s deposit the soil on the track. Not sure what a load of people having a shower at Euston would have on the track.

[Cornish Triang Paul]

Mk 3 Sleepers have retention tanks. Tried posting this yesterday but its disapeared....... The Night Riviera stock will be around for at least another 10 years as they basically had a rebuild during refurb afewyears back. The problem we have at Long Rock is with the 57s........... .There are rumours - and it is just that - that if First win the new 25ish year GW franchise, then new locos will be purchased possabily Euro 40000 co-cos but who knows what the future holds....... .

 

Having been based at SPM in the mid 80s, i can definatly sat the "Glasgow Sleeper" was very well used. 16 coaches, it had to be split to be stabled. Roads 6 & 7 at Victoria Sidings are still longer than the rest where it used to be stabled.

 

Just a thought, at PZ, road 1 will have to be changed IF EVER we can get more SLEPs........ .