London Bridge re-development

[jonathan452]

And again! - http://www.lbc.co.uk/rail-chaos-at-london-bridge-to-last-until-5pm-106105

 

But weren't they told to sort this several weeks back - http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/londons-transport-boss-slams-train-companies-over-london-bridge-failures/

[roundhouse]

Its worse than that now - Southern have reduced services in the evening peak now.

 

http://www.southernrailway.com/

 

All I could see this morning was one flat wagon loaded with rails pushed up to the temporary buffers on the out of use tracks when we crawled past arriving 22 minutes late but I might just have turned my head as we went past something else!!

[cromptonnut]

Apparently it was moved but where it now is, a signalling problem 'aroused' according to Southern's Twitter feed. I hope they meant 'arose'.

 

Problems expected until close of service. What an omnishambles.

[martin_wynne]

While the delays at London Bridge must be annoying, bear in mind that in parts of this supposedly united Kingdom, some of us have been waiting for a train since 1962.

[cromptonnut]

There's always one who tries to belittle our problems.

 

I'm sure if you were paying over £3000 a year for the "privilege" of an absolutely appalling train service, you wouldn't be happy either.

[roundhouse]

There's always one who tries to belittle our problems.

 

I'm sure if you were paying over £3000 a year for the "privilege" of an absolutely appalling train service, you wouldn't be happy either.

I am sure you are keeping an eye on the departures board but it aint looking good as most Southern services are showing as delayed or cancelled.

 

Just formulating a plan to avoid London Bridge but Vic is also being affected.

 

Might have to be a visit to a pub or two!!

[eastwestdivide]

While the delays at London Bridge must be annoying, bear in mind that in parts of this supposedly united Kingdom, some of us have been waiting for a train since 1962.

 

 

While sympathising with those parts of the UK, I have to ask: did anyone promise to run a train service there since 1962, and then have major problems delivering that service? 

[cromptonnut]

I am sure you are keeping an eye on the departures board but it aint looking good as most Southern services are showing as delayed or cancelled.

 

Just formulating a plan to avoid London Bridge but Vic is also being affected.

 

Might have to be a visit to a pub or two!!

 

The problem of course is they divert trains and people to Victoria, which then becomes overcrowded and can't cope, and just like at London Bridge last week, people can't get through the crowds to the trains that do come in, so you then end up with trains leaving half empty.

 

It's utterly pathetic, it really is.

[roundhouse]

The problem of course is they divert trains and people to Victoria, which then becomes overcrowded and can't cope, and just like at London Bridge last week, people can't get through the crowds to the trains that do come in, so you then end up with trains leaving half empty.

 

It's utterly pathetic, it really is.

Some one has left here early (he got a load of grief but does get in at 06.30) has just phoned me to say that currently all the Southern departures on the  board at LBG are showing  as cancelled and they are putting up the barriers. So not really sure which way to try and get home. We had used services to Elmers End (then tram to Croydon then bus home) but now there are far fewer of them so they will already be packed  without todays problems.

 

Thameslink will be wedged from Blackfriars anyway.

[The Stationmaster]

National Rail Enquiries seems to have slightly modified the English language.  In much the same sort of vein as LUL's utterly meaningless expression 'Good service'  NRE has the following to say about Southern on the summary page, I quote 'Minor delays on some routes'

 

However when you look at the detail the story is much more truthful (even if they don't know the difference between a freight train and an engineer's train) by stating there are delays of up to 40 minutes to/from London Bridge and that Thameslink services between London Bridge & Brighton will only run between East Croydon & Brighton.

 

As a former railwayman I know full well that at times a few passengers could be a right nuisance but what is happening in & out of London Bridge at present seems to be designed to make working at home amazingly popular.  It isn't really clear to me what is actually wrong part from the fact that passenger flows at London Bridge appear not to have been clearly thought out (or the phasing of the works is wrong in that it does not allow floes on & off trains to be properly sorted) while the original number of trains left in the plan at this stage in the works was seemingly overdone.  Quite why things have happened this way really needs to be examined - but not by politicos and their hangers on but by those who have an understanding of such things although whether that could in turn lead to any sort of improvement for passengers is really a very open question.

 

I don't know if BR could have done it better, I doubt if Boris's merry men & women could as they simply don't have the experience and regrettable whatever happens those really responsible for the failure to achieve a more timely implementation of Thameslink 2000 will in any case have stepped out of the firing line by no longer putting their name on a ballot paper.  Sorry but nothing much of any comfort in their to the long suffering commuters but I really don't know how it could be improved and I'm genuinely concerned to understand why it has gone so badly wrong.

[byron]

I don't know if BR could have done it better, I doubt if Boris's merry men & women could as they simply don't have the experience and regrettable whatever happens those really responsible for the failure to achieve a more timely implementation of Thameslink 2000 will in any case have stepped out of the firing line by no longer putting their name on a ballot paper.  Sorry but nothing much of any comfort in their to the long suffering commuters but I really don't know how it could be improved and I'm genuinely concerned to understand why it has gone so badly wrong.

 

Mike

You and I know that the much complained of BR could (and many manytimes) did do better. Real railwaymen worked wonders.

 

Mike

[roundhouse]

Latest update rorm some one going past the location is that its a couple of 'track machines' and a class 66 pulled to the siding at New Cross Gate under the Overground flyover. Didnt see those this morning so either another train was blocking my view or I was looking the wrong way at the time.

 

Obviously I dont know the details of the failure so cant really comment any more on them.

 

EDIT

 

Lots of delayed services at VIC due to drivers etc being out of position.

[phil-b259]

Has anyone seen the culprit for today's disruption? A 'broken down engineers train' was the cause for delays of nearly an hour today, but I could see nothing on the approach to London Bridge...indicating that it has been shifted. It sounded pretty serious whatever the problem was.

 

DISRUPTIONS OFF SUSSEX AREA

 

INCIDENT STATUS

ONGOING

LOCATION / LINE(S)

Bricklayers Arms Junction

TIMELINE / SITUATION

Advised at 00:30 that crippled wagon, which had previously had fitters attending to it with the assurance that it could move was red carded. Kent advised that wagon would be left on stub end London side of TL8002 points. However, at 03:20 after re-marshalling of 6C03, train damaged track circuit interrupter, route locking TL8002 points. It then emerged that the wagon was sitting on the block joint and thus occupying FMC track circuit. Suggestion from site was they were going to leave on Sussex loop. It was made clear that this was unacceptable and KICC RCM called conference at 03:45

Possession cleared 05:52 vice 04:00

07:24 Due to the position of the wagon occupying FMC track circuit, TL4615 is having to be talked past. Discussions with London Bridge S&T have shown that FMC track circuit will remain occupied regardless of where the defective wagon is. S&T are therefore checking the locking tables to determine whether they can release the locking to allow TL4615 signal to be used normally along the Sussex Reversible.

Conference being held at 07:45

Wagon needs a new brake distributor in order for it to move. Hope to replace on site.

Straight running on the Up line.

Straight running, talking past TL4615 signal on the Down line.

Next conference to be held 10:00.

09:35 Proceed aspect obtained on TL4615 signal.

Fitter expected on site 10:45.

11:54 London Bridge MOM reports fitters have examined the wagon and have stated that it can be moved as a 'swinger'. Essentially this means that it would need to be boxed-in between other wagons for safety. A recommended speed restriction of 35mph will be imposed. This information is being considered by RCM and COM

13:10 Loco’s and wagon on the move, estimated arrival 14:00

14:46 Shunt move beginning to move train to clear and line and run back to Tonbridge

15:50 Wagon cleared, and shunted into Sussex Loop, will be left in the loop during peek and following examination

16:44  Normal working

 

03:45 Conference discussed options and decided best option was to leave wagon where it was and clip TL8002 points in reverse. This would then leave the options of talking past TL4133 or working round via TL8006 points

NSC and DBS formulating plan to remove wagon in possession tonight.

SERVICE PLAN

GTR Services will terminate / start East Croydon or Gatwick Airport. With some services being cancelled completely.

Southern 2G** London Bridge to Caterham / London Bridge will run fast London Bridge to Norwood Junction / London Bridge.

2F** London Bridge to Victoria / London Bridge will run fast London Bridge to Crystal Palace / London Bridge.

2H** London Bridge to Beckenham / London Bridge will run hourly.

2J** London Bridge to West Croydon / London Bridge via Tulse Hill will run hourly.

With further reductions where possible.

PIDD STATUS

CSL2 DECLARED BY SOUTHERN

 

CSL2 DECLARED BY GTR

 

 

Update 1

 

Kent Possession Item 142, cleared with failed wagon at Bricklayers Arms Junction, fouling TL8002 Points.

Up Line Straight working.

Down Line Straight working, but talking past TL4615 signal.

 

Conference to be held at 07:45 to discuss options.

 

 Update 2

 

Fitters on site 10:35.

Options being looked at, Repair brake distributor, replace brake distributor, or if neither can be done, to Skate the wagon.

 

Assisting Engine coming from Tonbridge.

 

 Update 3

 

Gold Command at the TBROC from 11:00. Rob Bricker (Chair)

 

 Update 4

 

Fitters on site advise that brakes can be isolated, and will need to be boxed in.

2 loco’s and 4 wagons en route from Tonbridge

 

 Update 5

 

London Bridge MOM reports fitters have examined the wagon and have stated that it can be moved as a 'swinger'. Essentially this means that it would need to be boxed-in between other wagons for safety. A recommended speed restriction of 35mph will be imposed.

 

2 loco’s and 4 wagons en route from Tonbridge, eta to site 13:30.

 

1 hour service suspension to allow shunting moves to take place.

Estimate for moving wagon to Tonbridge is 15:00.

 

Update 6

 

Next conference to be held 15:00

 

Update 7

 

Loco’s and wagons on the move to Bricklayers Arms Jcn

 Estimated time to site 14:00

 

Update 8

 

Loco’s and wagons entering Sussex Loop

Recovery work to begin shortly

Estimated 1 hour to complete 

 

Update 9

 

Loco’s and wagons are now on site and starting to carry out shunt move to clear the line at 14:46

 

 

Update 10

 

Shunt move now taking place,

Conference call deferred to 15:30

 

Update 11

 

Movement still taking place

Expect completion time 20 minutes

Conference call deferred to 16:00

 

Update 12

 

Recovery train signalled back to New Cross Gate before being shunted into Sussex loop

It will be left in Sussex loop during the peak and pending further examination

Normal Running

 

Update 13

 

Precautions in place at both London Bridge and Victoria for crowd control

Service recovery on-going, plan to run 80% of the evening peak service

[roundhouse]

Thanks Phil for the info.

So it was that wagon that Insaw this morning near the temporary buffers.

 

Decided to chance it at LBG.

 

Camera crew outside London Bridge but it looks like many people have gone elsewhere as it's earily quiet.

A Caterham / Tattenham corner formed of 4 coaches just left so it's only doing one or the other.

 

Uckfield service cancelled.

 

Ours arrived on time which I think is one of the few Redhill services this afternoon so looking good for us so far.

 

Downside is that we won't be going to the pub now!!!

[The Lurker]

Coming back from a meeting at the Shard at about 3.30, there were already a lot of police around the Southern platforms. Not many passengers though.

[phil-b259]

Apparently it was moved but where it now is, a signalling problem 'aroused' according to Southern's Twitter feed. I hope they meant 'arose'.

 

Problems expected until close of service. What an omnishambles.

 

 

The problem of course is they divert trains and people to Victoria, which then becomes overcrowded and can't cope, and just like at London Bridge last week, people can't get through the crowds to the trains that do come in, so you then end up with trains leaving half empty.

 

It's utterly pathetic, it really is.

 

While not wishing to make light of your pain, it is clearly impossible to plan for every eventuality - the case here being a braking defect on a wagon and, what caused the real grief today, the rather unfortunate place it occurred. I have no doubt the possession itself was monitored closely to make sure it finished on time (curtailing work if need be). Its unfortunate that the place they put the errant wagon failed a key track circuit and caused no end of problems - which is an easy thing to complain about in hindsight, but I'm sure at the time it seemed like the sensible thing to do.

 

Also from a modelling perspective its a demonstration of why the days of using ropey old 2nd hand wagons displaced from revenue earning service and clapped out locos (both of which are more likely to break) on engineering works simply doesn't happen on todays privatised railway.

[roundhouse]

Here is the errant wagon with a GBRF 66 one end and two track cranes. Not the best photos so only posting the one!

[cromptonnut]

It all goes to show how delicate - and easily broken - this London Bridge work is.

 

It should never have been passed to allow to happen, being so flimsy.

 

Unfortunately, as mentioned elsewhere, many of the politicians and civil servants that were behind all this mess being approved in the first place will have long since disappeared with their golden handshakes.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Latest update rorm some one going past the location is that its a couple of 'track machines' and a class 66 pulled to the siding at New Cross Gate under the Overground flyover. Didnt see those this morning so either another train was blocking my view or I was looking the wrong way at the time.

 

Obviously I dont know the details of the failure so cant really comment any more on them.

 

EDIT

 

Lots of delayed services at VIC due to drivers etc being out of position.

Things are sort of running okay this evening, although the 17:49 is starting from East Croydon tonight. I don't think the train in the New Cross Gate loop is the guilty party...happy to be corrected if that is the case. I saw no sign of it this morning and our train was held in that loop at about 09:00. I have seen those wagons before being hauled by a pair of 20s, so they look to some sort of track recorder. Interestingly, the single bogie wagon loaded with track we passed this morning was in the middle of that consist.

[roundhouse]

Reading Phil's post it is the rail carrying wagon that was the other side of the tracks near a set of temporary buffers. It's now been rescued by the loco etc and moved into that siding this afternoon.

[cromptonnut]

From the report above, the errant wagon is being run unbraked at reduced speed and requires those crane-type wagons top and tail as brake force (presumably through piped over the knackered wagon).

 

They came up from Tonbridge this afternoon - it's just worrying that despite the problem being identified at about 3.30am this morning its taken all this time to deal with.

[phil-b259]

From the report above, the errant wagon is being run unbraked at reduced speed and requires those crane-type wagons top and tail as brake force (presumably through piped over the knackered wagon).

 

They came up from Tonbridge this afternoon - it's just worrying that despite the problem being identified at about 3.30am this morning its taken all this time to deal with.

 

Well it sounds like the first plan was to attempt a repair on site (thus removing the need for the swingers and finding a slow speed path back to Tonbridge) didn't work. I'm guessing but maybe the fitters were dispatched with the bits, only to find that initial reports / what they had been told / the actual damage was worse than initially suspected - so they called for swinger wagons and rescue locos (which probably required lots of ringing round to find drivers)

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Yes, thanks for the info Phil. That wagon looked to be well tucked out of the way this morning...hence me not thinking it was responsible.

[number6]

 

 

have long since disappeared with their golden handshakes.

Hmmm. I'd be careful with that broad brush analysis of past employees pension arrangements. If what you mean is the fragmentation of the railways has caused loyalties and focus to be affected. I would agree with you. The 'take the money and run' is of course a bit of a mantra in modern life but this is a much more complex issue than can be blamed on civil servants/politicians etc.

[cromptonnut]

Hmmm. I'd be careful with that broad brush analysis of past employees pension arrangements. If what you mean is the fragmentation of the railways has caused loyalties and focus to be affected. I would agree with you. The 'take the money and run' is of course a bit of a mantra in modern life but this is a much more complex issue than can be blamed on civil servants/politicians etc.

 

I refer, of course, to the senior people who got the golden handshakes, not the "everyday railwayman" - many of the current "passenger facing" staff are of course taking the brunt of decisions made by people who never lower themselves to actually face the music and take the blame.