London Bridge re-development

[phil-b259]

Sorry but the 700 trains - which have half the seating capacity of an equivalent 377 12 car set, with 2/3 of its promised capacity being standing room only, is not an improvement by any standards.  They are completely unfit for purpose.

 

Yes it'll be a great increase in "cross London" capacity - but will be of little help to us down in Surrey who just need to get to London Bridge (and not Victoria, or City Thameslink, or wherever else they decide to shove us).  During the day there are 4tph from Redhill to London Bridge - it reduces to 2tph in the peak when those trains are desperately needed. 

 

Am I angry?  Damn right I am, paying nearly £4000 a year for the privilege of an unreliable service that increases stress as you wonder if you'll be actually able to get home at the end of each working day, and wastes precious evening time when things are messed up. 

 

I wonder how many Three Bridges to Peterborough season tickets they currently sell?

 

Please note I specifically didn't mention the quality of the extra capacity provided - for a good reason.

 

While it is obviously an important factor in terms of you and your fellow commuters experience the spec of the trains is an easy thing to fix. As with all modern trains the class 800s are a modular design which means the interiors (including the number, alignment and pitch of seating) can easily be altered given the POLITICAL will to do so. GOVIA HAVE ALREADY MADE IT PLAIN THAT THE DfT DESIGNED INTERIOR LAYOUT UNACCEPTABLE and they are pushing for changes. Whether they are successfully will largely depend on the DfT so get lobbying your MPs to allow the changes to be made - even if they do cost more to the Treasury (Siemens won't do the work for free as its not their fault the DfT made such a hash of the fleets procurement).

 

However the infrastructure being put in place (the new, bigger under track concourse, more platforms, advanced signalling, etc) is much, much harder to alter once it is done and its this aspect that I was concentrating on. Its no good having flashy trains if you cannot run them because the infrastructure cannot support them - which is what would be the case if didn't undertake the current work and all the disruption that it entails.

 

Ultimately I guess what I am trying to get you to do is to accurately direct your frustration.

 

Please be assured that whatever they might be forced to say for PR reasons - Nobody in the railway industry thinks the 700s as delivered are suitable for the long distance routes they will be doing - but the said railway industry (including the existing leasing companies who have had extensive experience with new rolling stock procurement like the Electrostar family) had very little input into the design of the 700s because THE TREASUARY / DfT TOOK THE VIEW THEY KNOW BEST. Govia and by extension, commuters such as yourself are the ones "benefiting" from such decisions.

[martin_wynne]

One thing which is puzzling about modern life is why everyone chooses to work the same hours, creating the peaks? Is it written down somewhere that all work must be done between 9 and 5? The inclination of humans to behave like flocks of sheep, despite a highly developed brain, is a bit of a mystery.

 

If you or your company decided to change working hours to say 11-7, you could travel on cheap off-peak fares, on less crowded trains. And what's more you could probably get more work done without interruptions in the final 2 hours, while everyone else is stuck on the train.

 

Martin.

[phil-b259]

It's amazing how many people who don't do this journey every day say we who do this journey day in day out through all the problems shouldn't get fed up with the journey.

 

Those that don't do it don't either understand or care is the crux of it (there was an article in a newspaper recently where a little girl had psoted a letter ot Southern asking them to improve the service as she hadnt seen her Dad in weeks since January because of all the problems associated with  London Bridge - someone in Ipswich responded to the article saying that they had no sympathay with them as they could just move away)

 

It's soul destroying and at some point I will pack it in.

 

I have never said you shouldn't be fed up angry depressed, stressed, or any of the other negative emotions the current works are generating. All I ask is that when such emotions have subsided you remember that the work is not being done deliberately to piss off commuters or that it has been structured to cause maximum disruption. Rather I ask you to accept that given the time and site limitations its the best that can be done* (minor tweaks apart) and at the end of it all you will have a much improved infrastructure environment plus train frequency (even if the trains themselves leave something to be desired)

 

*Note that major alterations like suspending the Gatwick Express service are not ones the railway industry can do without permission from their POLITICAL MASTERS who no doubt be heavily influenced by the owners of Gatwick airport (who lets remember are campaigning for more flights and an extra runway)

[phil-b259]

 

Just come back from Macclesfield I under two hours into Euston.

Victoria to Redhill 50 minutes for a twenty mile journey. OK engineering works (and Sunday is the best time to do them)  but even with the reduced service they were running late and we would have missed the bus home had we not decided to get off at Coulsdon South and catch a bus from there.

 

 

While it shouldn't affect the WCML / Victoria axis, this weekend has seen the ALL the signalling from Kentish Town through to Loughborough junction (including the MML platforms at St Pancras) move from West Hampstead PSB and Victoria (Eastern) PSB to the new Three Bridges ROC as per the Thameslink plan.

 

Naturally this has seen extensive travel disruption - but it is important to note that this 'one off' activity would have to have happened at some stage

[phil-b259]

Sorry but the 700 trains - which have half the seating capacity of an equivalent 377 12 car set, with 2/3 of its promised capacity being standing room only, is not an improvement by any standards.  They are completely unfit for purpose.

 

Yes it'll be a great increase in "cross London" capacity - but will be of little help to us down in Surrey who just need to get to London Bridge (and not Victoria, or City Thameslink, or wherever else they decide to shove us).  During the day there are 4tph from Redhill to London Bridge - it reduces to 2tph in the peak when those trains are desperately needed. 

 

Am I angry?  Damn right I am, paying nearly £4000 a year for the privilege of an unreliable service that increases stress as you wonder if you'll be actually able to get home at the end of each working day, and wastes precious evening time when things are messed up. 

 

I wonder how many Three Bridges to Peterborough season tickets they currently sell?

 

And where exactly do you think those trains will call at - Yes REDHILL AND LONDON BRIDGE.

 

You are falling into the trap of thinking the whole point of Thameslink is solely to improve things for cross London passengers - and this has never been the case. Yes ministers and the industry may like to highlight the journey potabilities in public (in not a dissimilar way to they went all out on speed for HS2) but any proper analysis shows that the bulk of the benefits are for commuters finishing / starting their journeys IN central London, not going across from one side to another.

 

If you don't believe me just look at the Wimbledon loop saga where the commuters weren't angry about the prospect of losing trains to Luton - they were angry about losing direct trains to City Thameslink, the station which replaced the LCDR Holborn Viaduct where the Wimbledon loop trains had terminated (until its closure) since the Southern railway electrified the loop back in 1929.

 

As regards the peak versus off peak service levels - let me remind you that the reduction in the peaks is not simply for fun. If you examined the mater carefully then you would find that those 2TPH that are missing in the peaks is down to the extra services that run from London Bridge to the south coast - and let me tell you they are just as rammed as your Redhill trains. Off peak these extras don't run so Redhill can get 4tph.

 

So - yes by all means we could give you 4TPH in the peaks at Redhill, but all that does is transfer the problem elsewhere and rather than your MP getting thousands of complaints it would be those representing commuters living in Haywards Heath, Horsham, Brighton, Worthing, Eastbourne, Littlehapton, etc

 

Ultimately you and others need to appreciate that capacity HAS to be reduced during the works and in such a situation you can't please everybody. As such the timetable HAS to be done with the aim of minimising the effects to the greatest number of users - which in the end may come down against those commuting at Redhill over those coming in from further out.

[cromptonnut]

As noted elsewhere, unless you are enduring the chaos daily, you really aren't in a position to understand the frustration of what we are going through.

 

Passenger numbers note Redhill as being in the top 10 busiest of Southern's stations but we don't get the service to reflect that.

 

Why do people all travel in and out at the same time?  Well, that isn't really our choice either, it's what our employers decide, which is based upon what the public want companies to provide.

 

There is of course also the separate issue that Redhill route fares are overpriced -

 

Redhill to London Bridge £2672

Gatwick to London Bridge £2372

Oxted to London Bridge £2148

 

How can it cost less to go from Gatwick which is further out?

[roundhouse]

One thing which is puzzling about modern life is why everyone chooses to work the same hours, creating the peaks? Is it written down somewhere that all work must be done between 9 and 5? The inclination of humans to behave like flocks of sheep, despite a highly developed brain, is a bit of a mystery.

 

If you or your company decided to change working hours to say 11-7, you could travel on cheap off-peak fares, on less crowded trains. And what's more you could probably get more work done without interruptions in the final 2 hours, while everyone else is stuck on the train.

 

Martin.

A nice idea but many businesses need to operate during the normal working day. For instance, I work in construction and need to be in work when our sites are working. There areoften site working hour restrictions, generally before 08.00 and after 16.00 in residential areas ( and quite rightly so) which means most of our sites are only open between those hours.

 

My other half works in the financial industry and needs to be there to respond to calls, queries etc when other parts of the business is operating.

 

So it's not that easy for many companies to let staff change their working hours.

[cromptonnut]

I work 8-4.  Deliberately to try and avoid the rush, our organisation introduced 'flexible hours' to work around the Olympics and as it seemed to work for most they have let us continue if we wanted to.

 

The first direct London Bridge train is the 0633 off of Redhill, arr LBG 0700.  It was 4 late this morning - ok not that bad and it's certainly been a lot worse - but I have to leave that early in order to guarantee getting in to work on time.

 

My next option was the 0643 from Redhill arr LBG 0721 - which is often terminated at Redhil or East Croydon when it runs late leaving the next direct train at 0714 arr LBG at 0756 which is far too late to be in work at 8am because they killed off 4 of our 9 peak LBG services in January 2015.

 

The only other options are the Victoria trains at 0646, 0711 and 0710 Bedford, all of which require a change at East Croydon which is never a good experience.

 

I wonder how many of those being defensive spend three hours of their day commuting?

[phil gollin]

One thing which is puzzling about modern life is why everyone chooses to work the same hours, creating the peaks? Is it written down somewhere that all work must be done between 9 and 5? The inclination of humans to behave like flocks of sheep, despite a highly developed brain, is a bit of a mystery.

 

If you or your company decided to change working hours to say 11-7, you could travel on cheap off-peak fares, on less crowded trains. And what's more you could probably get more work done without interruptions in the final 2 hours, while everyone else is stuck on the train.

 

Martin.

.

 

In the late 80s and 90s there were definite moves towards variations of "flexible working" ranging from core hours through to turn up when you please, all influenced by changes in America.

 

Unfortunately there was a backlash from management (I would say power-mad management) and many schemes that were brought in were scaled back, core hours being expanded, banked hours being reduced and days off strictly limited.  

 

On the staff side there was a bit of envy from those tied down to the more traditional hours (mainly due to child care responsibilities).

 

In a couple of companies I worked for (both with US parent companies which used VERY flexible working) the initial flexibility was cut back SUPPOSEDLY due to two main reasons; problems in getting everyone available for meetings and "clients" complaints about not being able to contact people when THEY wished.  We (the staff) were very unconvinced as the parent company kept their flexibility.

 

Nowaday, "working from home" is popular amongst many organisations (to a limited extent) but the way railway season tickets work doesn't help. 

[The Stationmaster]

 

OK. A statement of fact.

 

But you are travelling in the Peak, not the Off-Peak.

How is the Off-Peak fare relevant? 

You have said you're getting a 35% discount on your daily Peak fare.

 

 

"Over the odds"?

But you've just given us figures that say you enjoy a 35% discount on the regular fare.

 

I sympathise that it's a difficult situation and the alternative choice is not easy or good, but that's your lot, or do you expect something to be done for you?

Maybe the UK taxpayer should subsidise your life choices?

You choose to live in the SE of England, work in London and commute on an expensive to provide rail system.

I sincerely don't mean to be cruel or nasty, but what do you want?

 

 

You bought the season ticket. That was your choice.

 

Sorry, I can accept arguments about high prices, fares increasing above the rate of inflation, the cost of living going through the roof etc, etc,; but I cannot buy any of the arguments you've put above.

 

 

 

.

This is an interesting debate.  According to National Rail's website the effect of holidays (but I don't know how much) is factored into their comparisons when looking at long term Season Ticket rates and it still offers a substantial saving.  The problem of course, as always, is that buying season means a substantial payment up front which is what automatically sticks in the mind as 'I'm paying all this - for not very much of that'.

 

As far as I can trace online there seems to be no quotes available for 'odd dates season tickets - i;.e you only buy a season for a certain period of X months and Y days which means you don't pay for the periods when you're on holiday.  I don't know if this has been discontinued ('too fiddly') or i simply not readily available online.  But even if odd days seasons are still available it is always a good idea to run their cost up against the price for an annual ticket as the latter offers by far the biggest discount.

 

As far as the service which is currently being delivered into London Bridge it is very difficult to see how some aspects of it can be resolved.  Train capacity is a simple one - DafT (who seem to think they're in charge) just order a sufficient number of trains with the right number of seats to maximise the capacity of each train path in the peaks.  That will undoubtedly mean assets sitting idle off peak but it is up to DafT and their political masters to justify and explain what they will or won't offer in terms of train capacity - the answer lies in their hands and nowhere else.

 

In terms of available railway on which to run the trains their seems to be little choice because we are where we are (although I wouldn't have arrived here by this route if I had been making the decisions - which might have made a difference, we'll never know).  The big problem is that the scheme was put in hand far too late which is largely down, again, to the politicos and their minions - it's happened and I doubt they'll learn all the lessons for the future but it might be worth battering them rather than the poor beggars who are trying to run it with one hand tied behind their backs.

 

I always have considerable sympathy for rail travellers caught up in situations like this.  Partly because I always thought that as a railway our job was to deliver the best we could for our passengers and freight customers - but also because teh continued presence and business of both was rather helpful towards my pension fund.

 

PS  In my final big railway job I spent the better part of 3 hours everydays travelling to/from work - sometimes it took longer, sometimes it took a lot less.  That included car to station, walk from car park to train (c440yds), train to London either direct to Waterloo (slow journey) or to Paddington and then on the UndergrounD.  Add what was often a 10-12 hour working day  (or even longer when circumstances led to a lot of extra work being required to run a train service the following day) and it's no surprise I only saw my offspring at weekends.  And sometimes not even that - in the aftermath of one incident and over a 5 week period - I only spent more than 12 hours at home on one single day, including weekends.

 

Now I'm not boasting or seeking sympathy, and things might well have changed, but there were (and no doubt still are) an awful lot of folk in the railway industry who put in a heck of a lot of time and effort to trying to make sure there are actually some trains running the next day or whenever.

[DY444]

I work 8-4.  Deliberately to try and avoid the rush, our organisation introduced 'flexible hours' to work around the Olympics and as it seemed to work for most they have let us continue if we wanted to.

 

The first direct London Bridge train is the 0633 off of Redhill, arr LBG 0700.  It was 4 late this morning - ok not that bad and it's certainly been a lot worse - but I have to leave that early in order to guarantee getting in to work on time.

 

My next option was the 0643 from Redhill arr LBG 0721 - which is often terminated at Redhil or East Croydon when it runs late leaving the next direct train at 0714 arr LBG at 0756 which is far too late to be in work at 8am because they killed off 4 of our 9 peak LBG services in January 2015.

 

The only other options are the Victoria trains at 0646, 0711 and 0710 Bedford, all of which require a change at East Croydon which is never a good experience.

 

I wonder how many of those being defensive spend three hours of their day commuting?

 

All this whingeing is getting really tiresome.  I was actually wondering how many of those that spend 3 hours a day commuting are just accepting the situation.

 

I spend 3 hours a day commuting.  I commute into London Bridge every day as I have for 33 years.  I spend a lot of money annually doing it.  It's been difficult since the platform closures started and particularly grim in recent months.  Unlike some I didn't expect it to be anything else given the reductions in capacity and the risks inherent in attempting to rebuild a major station whilst trying to maintain some semblence of service.  I don't see any point in blaming Southern as I'm not really sure what the hell they are supposed to do.  Imo the issues lie with Government, the DfT, Railtrack and to a certain extent Network Rail, all of whom are responsible for making mistakes or taking bad decisions.  There are only two things I can really gripe about with Southern.  Firstly that over the years they have made a bit of a mess of their relationship with the driving corps.  That has reduced the goodwill and increases cancellations particularly on Fridays in my experience.  Secondly they tried to run more trains than was really practicable (although NR dishes out the paths, maintains the Rules of The Plan and other operational rules so they have some responsibility too).   The timetable would have been more robust with fewer trains but I can completely understand why they did what they did as they were trying to provide as much capacity as possible.  Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

 

I'm not sure what remedies the complainers are seeking.  Should NR just abandon the project and put it all back like it was?  What do they want done?  Sure I want 12 car trains every five minutes from my station throughout the peak hours but I'm not going to get it.  My service, along with everyone elses has reduced and partly re-routed to reflect the significant restrictions on capacity compared with before.  It takes me longer to get there, it's very crowded, sometimes I can't get on, I've been plagued by delays.  That's life.  I didn't expect anything else as I've said, I'm not happy about it but I accept it.  If the service is rubbish when it's all done then we'll have something to complain about.  Until then yes we get that it's bad but can we hear a different record please?

[cromptonnut]

Well I'm very sorry if sharing the truth is so upsetting, I'll "unfollow" the thread so I won't hear everyone complaining about me so everyone wins.

 

There are many things that could and should have been done differently, but the will simply is not there.

 

Goodbye.

[roundhouse]

I think that I will also stop looking at this thread as I get just as wound up aswell.

[Guest]

Yeah, maybe it does come across as "moaning" but those enduring this every day have every right to let off steam. If you don't like reading it, skip the topic. Maybe a return to factual updates on the works as they continue is the way forward?

My continued symapthies to those caught up in this.

[number6]

I'm sorry to see some leaving this thread - which over the years has had some really interesting information and anecdotes on it - but I was beginning to think we were drifting a little bit into grumble zone only. I accept some who have used London Bridge in the past feel they are between a rock and a hard place at the moment and feel their commute has become intolerable. 

 

So I hope that all the pent up energy spent on here is also being directed at your local MPs, local action groups, emails to train companies etc. as well? Perhaps also talking your your fellow commuters. As well as accepting perhaps that modern life is rubbish.

 

I have changed my travel patterns and interestingly today 1st was declassified by the guard as we left Tonbridge to relive pressure because of 'overcrowding' but the last two carriages were far from full - lots of empty seats - nobody standing. Habits die hard I guess, and being at the front of the train is more important than sitting down. The impression of riding into London at the front of that particular train would have been very different to that at the rear. Could that be a metaphor for something?! Dunno!

 

One final thought - how can it possibly be less stressful/expensive/lacking in infrastructure to be living anywhere in the South East and driving to work and back to SE1 each day? 

 

6

[jamie92208]

I follow this thread as I am interested in the progress of the works.  I have spent many happy hours spotting on the end of the platforms there and am fascinated as to how the work is progressing.   As I live nearly 200 miles away I can't get down as regularly as i would like so rely on threads like this (Reading is another example) to keep me up to date.

 

I have a lot of sympathy for those caught up in the delays and the conditions that they have to travel in.  As has been said many times above we are where we are and a lot of the mess is due to decisions made many years ago by people who don't have to use the station every day.

 

Perhaps a separate thread about the hazards and problems of daily commuting into a major station as it is rebuilt would be a good idea and keep this thread for the updates that the rest of us rely on.

 

 

Jamie

[Talltim]

As noted elsewhere, unless you are enduring the chaos daily, you really aren't in a position to understand the frustration of what we are going through.

 

Passenger numbers note Redhill as being in the top 10 busiest of Southern's stations but we don't get the service to reflect that.

 

Why do people all travel in and out at the same time?  Well, that isn't really our choice either, it's what our employers decide, which is based upon what the public want companies to provide.

 

There is of course also the separate issue that Redhill route fares are overpriced -

 

Redhill to London Bridge £2672

Gatwick to London Bridge £2372

Oxted to London Bridge £2148

 

How can it cost less to go from Gatwick which is further out?

I hope you buy a season from Gatwick.

[Talltim]

This is an interesting debate.  According to National Rail's website the effect of holidays (but I don't know how much) is factored into their comparisons when looking at long term Season Ticket rates and it still offers a substantial saving.  The problem of course, as always, is that buying season means a substantial payment up front which is what automatically sticks in the mind as 'I'm paying all this - for not very much of that'.

 

As far as I can trace online there seems to be no quotes available for 'odd dates season tickets - i;.e you only buy a season for a certain period of X months and Y days which means you don't pay for the periods when you're on holiday.  I don't know if this has been discontinued ('too fiddly') or i simply not readily available online.  But even if odd days seasons are still available it is always a good idea to run their cost up against the price for an annual ticket as the latter offers by far the biggest discount.

You can buy seasons for periods longer than a month, e.g. a month and 2 days to take you to the Friday,

I buy seasons monthly, because I can't front for a yearly in one go. I accept that probably costs me a bit more, but I do make some of this back by buying weeklies occasionally to take me up to period of leave, and also by missing out weekends between tickets.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Take a major London rail terminus, old, worn out and bursting at the seams.

Add commuter trains rammed completely full.

No paths to provide more trains, no station capacity to handle them if they could.

 

Just how do you go about improving the situation in a substantial way, without affecting the service in the mean time?

 

With something like a third (??) of the station capacity out of action for 4 or 5 years, plus all the other infrastructure work that needs to be done, there is bound to be a consequent affect on the number of services that can be run, along with the risks to reliability and robustness of the timetable.

 

They could have imposed far more draconian measures to deal with it;

e.g. suspend the sale of normal season tickets and allow only travel by limited sales of restricted tickets during the peak periods.

How could such a limited ticket be sold and who would be able to get them?

What if you were one of the unlucky ones, not able to buy a ticket?

x% of commuters effectively barred from travelling during the peak periods?

The political ramifications of such a policy would be totally unpalatable. 

 

What are the alternatives?

 

I can understand and sympathise with commuters who are caught up in this, especially if they feel they have no choice; but ultimately the blame lies with them, not the TOC's, not NR, not the Government.

It's a result of too many people wanting to use the services provided, with demand steadily growing.

 

I suffered the same when I used to commute by car from the south coast to outer West London, near Heathrow, via the M3 & M25.

The M3 and M25 got busier and busier and started to grind to halt earlier and earlier in the morning as the years went by. Meaning I was having to leave home gradually earlier and earlier, in order to avoid getting too delayed in traffic.

My 0545 departure gradually became earlier by 5 or 10 minutes until it became 0515.

Just another example of an increasing number of (already too many) people, wanting to use the road at the same time.

 

Then came the major roadworks and re-building of the M25 around Heathrow. Bedlam !

Plus major re-surfacing and re-building of the older sections of the M3 in Surrey. Chaos !

I've experienced plenty of anger and frustration at being delayed, held up and stuck in a jam for anything up to an hour. I was late for work on a few occasions too, which was not good.

All the fault of the DfT, the Highways Agency, Local government, all the other bu**ers getting in the way and causing the congestion when I wanted to travel.

 

Worst still, I didn't get a 35% reduction in the cost of my Petrol for driving during this peak period !

 

 

.

[phil-b259]

Immediate advice

 

 

TDK track circuit flicked on 10 line in front of 2F25 with change of aspect G-R-R, S&T advised and investigating and were in process of changing receiver

 

JAM track circuit line 9 has also now failed in up direction and as a result caused all spad alarms to activate which in turns holds all signals at danger for 5 minutes

Services now on move

 

At present S&T still dealing with KDT track circuit before will investigate JAM

 

Delays up to 20 minutes with services being reduced and diverted as required

 

==========

 

Update 1

 

Service plan

All up service in via 11 up

2C86 will be talked past TL4120 into station and then departing services will leave via line 8 in down direction

Techs working on KDT on line 10 at present

 

Delays to 25 minutes

Services being reduced and diverted

[corneliuslundie]

I have used London Bridge regularly in the past and commuted into London from various directions for over 35 years, so I hope my comments will not be felt out of order.

 

Several people, have said, effectively, "don't work in London". That is the crux. Despite feeble attempts from time to time by governments to decentralise, England is getting more centralised on the South East. Sure you can move out here to mid Wales if you are retired or don't mind being unemployed (but if too many of you do it will push up house prices!). Government departments have largely stopped shifting activity outside London, efforts to do so have largely been ineffective, and London is getting more important as an international financial centre. There seems at present to be no political will to transfer jobs away from London. So many people will always have to commute into central London. It is unfair to blame them for it.

 

So I have every sympathy with those who complain. And it if helps them retain their cool in stressful situations them RMWeb is doing a service. But it would be nice to have more news on what is going on at and around London Bridge, please.

 

It is worth noting that many capital cities have the same problems even if not the same solutions.

 

Jonathan

[The Stationmaster]

Immediate advice

 

 

TDK track circuit flicked on 10 line in front of 2F25 with change of aspect G-R-R, S&T advised and investigating and were in process of changing receiver

 

JAM track circuit line 9 has also now failed in up direction and as a result caused all spad alarms to activate which in turns holds all signals at danger for 5 minutes

Services now on move

 

At present S&T still dealing with KDT track circuit before will investigate JAM

 

Delays up to 20 minutes with services being reduced and diverted as required

 

==========

 

Update 1

 

Service plan

All up service in via 11 up

2C86 will be talked past TL4120 into station and then departing services will leave via line 8 in down direction

Techs working on KDT on line 10 at present

 

Delays to 25 minutes

Services being reduced and diverted

This I think shows up one of the things which should not have been done in the way it has been.  There is a lot of increasingly ageing signalling on the Central section (or whatever it is now called) and I think a better approach would have been to get on and renew that/inject greater reliability prior to carrying out works with a major impact on capacity so at least what is still usable remains as usable as possible.

 

This has happened - for a variety of reasons - with the Reading scheme and although I harbour some doubts about their potential impact on safety (in the broader sense) axle counters have progressively replaced track circuits as stages have been commissioned and before other physical works have been carried out.  And this sort of changing should have been carried out over a much wider area than LB itself.

 

There are probably some good arguments against doing it that way but when the chips are down and you are going to work a very tight trainplan you need maximum infrastructure reliability before you start taking out facilities.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

One common aspect seems to be coming up time and time again in this thread - the Gatwick Express.

 

To me, it sounds like it's using a disproportionate number of paths for the number of passengers it's carrying (or rather not carrying).

 

It appears that mayors and ministers want to sort all this out. Well wouldn't a start be for them to use the Gatex service in a better way (if only for the period of rebuilding), by letting it call at East Croydon and possibly alternate ones at Redhill too?

 

Not a lot I know, but at least a move in the right direction to use what resources are currently available more effectively.

[phil-b259]

One common aspect seems to be coming up time and time again in this thread - the Gatwick Express.

 

To me, it sounds like it's using a disproportionate number of paths for the number of passengers it's carrying (or rather not carrying).

 

It appears that mayors and ministers want to sort all this out. Well wouldn't a start be for them to use the Gatex service in a better way (if only for the period of rebuilding), by letting it call at East Croydon and possibly alternate ones at Redhill too?

 

Not a lot I know, but at least a move in the right direction to use what resources are currently available more effectively.

Ahh but ordinary commuters don't employ lobbying firms - and as I said you need to factor in the effect the new aggressive management of the airport (BAA when they owned it couldn't care less) has in the corridors of Westminster.

 

That's not to say your suggestion isn't the right way forward but it needs to be recognised that such a decision is out of the hands of NR / Southern / etc and lies firmly within the remit of the DfT to authorise.

[Glorious NSE]

Several people, have said, effectively, "don't work in London". That is the crux.

 

The irony would also be that if less folk had to work there, you wouldn't need to do big engineering projects to increase capacity for the growing number of people trying to commute there...