'O' gauge ? first tentative steps. Corrugated goods shed part 3: Painting and weathering

[dikitriki]

David

 

The Heljan Hymek (and the 47) have a non-standard flange profile. They will go through PECO points, but hand-built can pose a problem (and you can forget about 31.5). Regrettably, the best solution is to reprofile the wheels on a lathe.

 

Not helpful, I know, but it probably isn't your pointwork.

 

Richard

[Donw]

I would suggest measuring the Back to Back gauge it should be 29mm or at least greater than 28.5mm. If that is OK check the flangeways they should be 1.75mm If the back to back or the flangeways are less than these figures you may have travel. That should easy to do but ideally you need a vernier caliper (one of those digital ones would be good) or the handy guild gauge for the back to back I have a gauge simply a piece of metal 1.75mm thick for the flangeways but at a push a piece of 60thou plus a piece of 10thou would give some idea.

The problem comes if the back to back is 28.5mm or less. You can build trackwork to suit but the slaters wheels will be less happy on it. If its the flangeways and its the crossing it could be hard to fix without a virtual rebuild it the wing rails and V are an assemby, less so if they are seperate. But if its the check rail side you should be able to use a small chisel ir scalpel to lift the chairs and replace.

Don

[PatB]

There is an article on the shortcomings and suitable fixes of Heljan diesel wheels on p32 of May's GOG Gazette. Apparently the Hymek back-to-back is 28.5 mm and the flange thickness is 1.25 mm. The detailed fix is to remove 0.5 mm from the back of each wheel and 0.25 mm off the flange tip, followed by resetting the back-to-back to 29.2 mm. Easy enough with access to a lathe, quite difficult without, although I've seen similar wheel modifications done with a file, a hand drill and a huge store of patience.

[David Siddall]

Thanks guys... but I'm afraid vernier calipers and lathes don't even feature on my radar. In fact I don't even know anyone who has (or even has access to) either.

 

Gritting my teeth and trying hard not to abandon the whole hand-made track thing for the second time I'll blow some paint over the 'vees' and check rails then blast the Hymek through both turnouts in the hope its passage produces witness marks to any tight spots. Re-setting the check rails I could live with, even a little 'relieving' of clearances with a file or grinding disc (brutal I know but the first thought which came to my bodgers mind); but as for reducing flange depths and turning down the wheels themselves... that's way beyond me!

 

So infuriating bearing in mind the trouble I took with multiple roller-gauges during construction!!! I'm now starting to fret about the Dapol 08 I've got on pre-order :-(

 

David

[dikitriki]

David

 

I don't believe the answer is to adapt your track just to run the Hymek, for then nothing else will run through properly. It is Heljan that got it wrong, though their later stuff is fine....and Dapol's will be too. There are people who will turn the wheels down for you. I know of one guy who charges £40 to do a set of 47 wheels, so that may be a better route for you.

 

I certainly wouldn't blast a Hymek through hand built points: you are more likely to damage the points - and remember - the points are likely to be correct anyway.

 

Richard

[David Siddall]

Thanks Richard, ignoring such advice from one who I really should describe as one of my online mentors would be a bit daft bearing in mind the beast weighs about a ton! Whilst the errant wheelset is out pending resolution of the split gear issue I'll try propelling that through both turnouts digitally (...i.e. I'll push it with myfinger ;-)

 

I'll also start searching for that chap you mention... unless anyone knows who it is and has contact details? Unless of course (wouldn't it be nice) Heljan can supply improved replacements????.

 

David

 

PS: I'm thrilled that you think my turnouts are right :-)

[David Siddall]

And now for a considerably more cheerful bit of news after my previous gloom-laden posts...

 

I emailed Howes the main Heljan agents yesterday afternoon (Sunday) about the split gear on my Hymek and was somewhat delighted (understatement) to receive a call from them this morning (Monday) at about 9.30 – now what's that if it isn't service?

 

The immensely helpful chap on the phone directed me to the relevant replacement part on the Heljan spares page of their website (HJ050 suitable for their O Gauge Class 35, 37, 47 and 55 @ £2.50 each plus p&p; which I've ordered), gave me a quick rundown of the work involved (it sounds fairly straight-forward) and encouraged me to phone them back if I had any questions when the parts arrived and I was ready to undertake the repair.

 

Since the first part of the conversation had gone so well I thought '...well, why not ask him about the problems I was having with the loco refusing to run smoothly through hand-built turnouts?'; to which he responded equally enthusiastically and helpfully with the following option. Now I haven't tried this so I can't vouch for it but, according to Howes, the driving wheels on the Hymek can safely be adjusted outwards a little – it's apparently allowed for in the wheel/axle design and should provide sufficient back-to-back clearance through 32mm gauge crossings and checkrails! This certainly sounds like something worth trying as it would obviate the need for any serious-sounding engineering-based solutions – lathes and the like just don't feature in my little world!

 

Saying that I was then completely bowled over by Greenslade's offer (via my other thread) of his time and workshop skills if I could get the Hymek and turnout to North London, a gesture that really says great things about the generous-spirited nature of railways modellers. It's just a shame south-east Wales to North London is such a hike!

 

Thanks to you all... onward and for a change 'upward' I think :-)

 

BFN

 

David

[Donw]

David

digital vernier calipers are listed by Amazon starting from about £7. True a back to back gauge may be cheaper but the vernier will tell you how much something is out and can be used for all sorts of measuring. Mine are the old fashioned vernier scale jobs really aught to upgrade to a digital one. If it only needs about 0.5mm that is unlikely to cause much problem be carefull moving them out not to create wobble. At least there is no quartering to worry about.

Don

[PatB]

Given that you've already got one of the wheelsets out and (I assume) getting the rest out isn't a massive job, I agree that it might be worth a try to just increase the back to back, provided the flanges, as they stand, will fit through your check-rail gaps. After all, with the wheelsets loose, it should be possible to physically see if they'll go through your pointwork without either hanging up on the check rails or trying to go through the wrong side of the crossing vee. That way, it becomes possible to fiddle by trial and error without need for either a vernier or a back to back gauge.

 

Besides, I can see a certain cachet in having your wheelsets set bespoke for your pointwork, just as long as they'll still work anywhere else you might want to run the loco.

[David Siddall]

Taking the wheelsets out of a Heljan Hymek is delightfully easy Pat – release the four small screws that hold the keeper-plate to the bottom of the bogie and the wheels just lift out. Removing the individual gears sounds slightly more challenging and apparently involves splitting the bogie into two halves after removing it from the chassis. However Howes gave me step-by-step instructions over the phone and I'll post how I get on when the replacement final drive gears arrive.

 

As for testing the two turnouts I've built to date I did exactly as you suggest last night and despite kind suggestions to the contrary from certain quarters I do think the check rails on turnout number one are the culprits – the problem is nowhere near as severe on my second attempt, though the experience of other contributors identifies Heljan's early O Gauge wheels as being adrift in both back-to-back and flange depth.

 

So... first off I laid a steel ruler over the 'vee' of turnout number one and this suggested that all's well there (no untoward kinks in the transition between 'vee' and adjacent rails) and the Hymek wheel flanges pass through the pre-assembled C&L 'vee' without any problems. However it rapidly became clear that all four wheelsets fouled the checkrail at the same place – directly opposite the bend in the 'vee' when rolled gently through the formation. Easing the back-to-backs of the wheelsets a fraction by applying gentle but assertive pulling and twisting force (using no more than fingers and thumbs) improved thing a bit but even this still didn't allow any of the wheelsets to pass though the crossing completely unimpeded. Mindful of the problem Don mentions above I'm wary of going any further even though there does appear to be the opportunity to do so.

 

With the pinch-point revealed – in the one place it's difficult to apply roller gauges to check that the dimension are absolutely accurate – all I can go by is physical evidence which suggests that I ought to at least I look at the location and clearances of those check rails again. I have seen it suggested that filing a flat on one end of a single roller gauge will allow it to lie flat on a 'vee' so I think I'll give that a try.

 

It's pretty clear that, even with their back-to-backs tweaked, Hymeks and hand-built 32mm turnouts may ultimately involve the dread word 'compromise'. But at least I know that its fairly easy to release glued chairs from ply sleepers if need be – after all I have done it before, several times! Thank (insert deity of choice here) I didn't try 31.5mm clearances through my turnouts – as Richard observed earlier wheel-re profiling would as like as not be unavoidable :-/

 

Bye for now...

 

David

[martin_wynne]

However it rapidly became clear that all four wheelsets fouled the checkrail at the same place – directly opposite the bend in the 'vee' when rolled gently through the formation. ... With the pinch-point revealed – in the one place it's difficult to apply roller gauges to check that the dimension are absolutely accurate – all I can go by is physical evidence which suggests that I ought to at least I look at the location and clearances of those check rails again.

 

Hi David,

 

It's likely that the check rails are OK.

 

A common beginner mistake is to make the knuckle bend too sharp and/or the knuckle gap too tight.If the turnout is already built you may be able to ease the knuckle gap with a thin needle file. Here's a diagram which may help when setting the wing rail knuckles:

 

 

The blue infill shows the theoretical ideal with a sharp bend at K exactly matching the angle of the vee and in line with it. In practice on the prototype it is not possible to make such a sharp bend because of the 1:20 inclination of the rails.

 

Instead, a short curve is used, as shown by the green line, making the knuckle gap wider than the flangeway gap. It works fine, and can help if replicated on the model. Some companies made this curve quite gentle and obvious as shown -- the NER for example. On the GWR the curve matches the crossing angle in feet, so for example a 1:7 crossing has the knuckle bend curved at 7ft radius.

 

But it's important to get the flangeway gap correct alongside the nose of the vee at X in the diagram, otherwise there is a risk of wheels dropping into the wide gap in front of the nose.

 

What you must not do is make the knuckle bend too sharp, as shown by the red line. This is guaranteed to cause problems, such as you are seeing.

 

More in this topic: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/38726-handbuilding-turnouts-using-gauges/page__st__100#entry447327

 

and this: http://www.rmweb.co...._25#entry562889

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[RedgateModels]

I've said before, but when I built my O gauge turnouts (well the straight crossing ones) I used a set of car feeler gauges set to the correct flangeway gap when positioning the check rails to ensure that I had a good true 1.5mm all the way through the crossing.

 

It all got a bit confusing with the curved crossing though, couldn't work out why it would not line up until the penny dropped

[hayfield]

I normally find the problems lie with the curved exit road and very rarely with the straight road. With EM & P4 gauges you use a check rail gauge from the Vee to set the position of the check rail, not from the stock rail.

 

Am I correct in remembering that you have a plastic C&L turnout kit? if so you can carefully slide a scalpel blade under the chairs and cut away the check rail. Just replace the chairs and reset it. Be carefull and don't dig into the sleeper, if necessary just keep taking off thin slivers of chair until you reach the sleeper. It will be covered by another chair anyway.

 

Might be a good idea to buy a cheap digital callaper off Ebay for a few pounds, they are extremely usefull for all jobs

[Donw]

David

I believe you bought in the crossing V did this come with the wing rails as an assembly or separate pieces. One thing I found building my first turnouts using plastic chairs was that the crossing V could move a little in the chairs. Similarly the wing rails could move slightly although less so due to chairs being at two different angles. This movement may only be less than 0.5mm but can be a problem. Once the rail is painted the problem ceases. My first solution was to fix the V down onto a brass screw ( I build in situ so I could do this) but later switched to building the V and wingrails as an assembly in a Jig. I placed the rails in upside down and soldered scraps of brass edge across to hold them. The assembly can be fixed down with a little epoxy under the strips.

However you seem to be having not trouble at the crossing just at the check rail so I would just lift the first chair and tweak the check rail out. Then try pushing some wagons through. I find that pushing a few wagons through ( or four wheels coaches) will show up problems as there will be side forces. If the wagons run through properly and also the loco you will have found a fix. If it is the Knuckle as Martin suggests then a bit of judicious filling will work.

 

When building anything there are always tolerances and a turnout may accept 99% of vehicles but the 1% of vehicles which are pushing tolerances themselves may be a trouble. The golden rule is if the same vehicles cause trouble in different places check the vehicles, if different vehicles have trouble in the same place check the place. When it one vehicle at one point it could well be a bit of both. As problems with Helijan have been reported elswhere that is the most likely. If you can ease things a little without causing trouble for your other stock that may be the best solution.

Don

[David Siddall]

Am I correct in remembering that you have a plastic C&L turnout kit? if so you can carefully slide a scalpel blade under the chairs and cut away the check rail. Just replace the chairs and reset it. Be carefull and don't dig into the sleeper, if necessary just keep taking off thin slivers of chair until you reach the sleeper. It will be covered by another chair anyway.

 

I'm actually using ply sleepers (fortunately perhaps?) from which it's possible to release chairs using a curved scalpel blade without having to destroy either them or cause damage to the sleeper(s) to which they're attached :-)

 

 

When building anything there are always tolerances and a turnout may accept 99% of vehicles but the 1% of vehicles which are pushing tolerances themselves may be a trouble. The golden rule is if the same vehicles cause trouble in different places check the vehicles, if different vehicles have trouble in the same place check the place. When it's one vehicle at one point it could well be a bit of both. As problems with Heljan have been reported elsewhere that is the most likely. If you can ease things a little without causing trouble for your other stock that may be the best solution.

 

That's my kind of rule Don - derived from experience and suitably pragmatic :-)

 

For the avoidance of any doubt, I'm using C&L's pre-assembled 'vees' and I'm happy to reiterate that they're definitely not the source of the problem. I checked the knuckle bend as per Martin's advice but it doesn't appear to be the culprit so I've lifted and re-positioned the check rail on the straight-ahead road and all four Hymek wheelsets now roll through smoothly. No slop by the way, just sufficient clearance to ensure smooth passage ...which in my case proved to be a couple of thicknesses of cheap copier paper twixt the back face of the wheel and the check rail head. Happily this little bit of easing hasn't had any apparent detrimental effect on the passage of my three wagons or on the aesthetics of the turnout either.

 

I'm thinking the answer might be (....if you're a Hymek owner and you want to build your own turnouts but don't want to indulge in wheel re-profiling that is!), to make adding check rails the last stage of the construction process ...and accept the possibility that a little compromise in their gauging may be required to ensure smooth running?

 

A replacement for my Hymek's split primary drive gear arrived from Howes yesterday (within 24 hours of ordering) which I'll try to get installed ASAP so I can test the turnout's adjustments under power with the loco propelling my wagons which (I guess) will be the ultimate test :-)

 

David

[Guest 838rapid]

I had to change a cog on my 47,its easy enough to do.

Am sure you will be fine,The worst bit I found was lining the gears up before reconstruction.

 

 

[JeffP]

Interesting topic.

Is the gearwheel done, and how does it go now?

[David Siddall]

Some way to go yet I'm afraid... I'm still trying to remove the errant bogie from the Hymek's chassis so I can dismantle it to swap the cogs – the little white clip-in plugs Heljan use to connect the feeds to and from the main circuit board are proving extremely reluctant to let go! It took me an hour to solder one of the lighting supply wires back onto the tiny pin inside one of said plugs after a wire came away and the plug stayed put! Progress hampered by domestic competition for what little time is available too :-/

 

David

[David Siddall]

But finally... what might be referred to as a result in all respects :-)

 

Having finally persuaded the power supply plugs to part company from the circuit board sockets and teased the motor bogie from the chassis (the flywheel is a very tight fit), the whole process was delightfully simple and took about five minutes. Releasing four screws (two of which also clamp the motor in position) allows the bogie to be split and providing you ease it all apart gently all the gears should stay in place on one half. Swap the busted primary drive gear, reverse the dis-assembly process and bingo – one fully restored Hymek chassis with drive to all four axles :-)

 

 

My Hymek's power bogie separated into two halves with the inner wheelset's split primary-drive gear removed...

 

 

The offending article before it was consigned to the bin... the split is just visible running longitudinally between two teeth on the smaller diameter gear.

 

 

And most importantly the reassembled chassis having just negotiated the adjusted check-rails of my first hand-built turnout at a very respectable crawl :-)

[Guest 838rapid]

When I stripped my Heljan loco's I find it easier to remove bogie frames,then you will see 2 covers which give the bogie a front/back pivot point.

 

Remove the 2 screws on each bracket and the motor bogie will drop out.

 

I found it the easiest way to remove the bogie.

 

Also whilst I was in a tinkering mood I altered the lights on the front so it showed the correct white light on the front,drivers side.

 

Maybe ecessive but worth it to me,use 1 of the pair in the headcode if you like to create the bulb.

 

Wish I had Hymek to hand here as could show you in pics what I mean.

 

[Guest 838rapid]

Our post's crossed.

 

Am glad you got it sorted.

 

Fab models to work on ain't they.

[David Siddall]

Our post's crossed.

 

Am glad you got it sorted.

 

Fab models to work on ain't they.

 

... I altered the lights on the front so it showed the correct white light on the front,drivers side.

 

Thanks for your support and encouragement '838'... light swap sounds like a good idea, I'll do that before I finally put it all back together. I would however say that mine was a bit of a bu66er until I got the power supply plugs apart! After that I would agree ... it was all delightfully simple and straightforward – even for a hamfist like me ;-).

 

David

[David Siddall]

Following the Hymek hiatus and the checkrail calamity I'm now back on track (sorry... couldn't resist the alliterations or the weary old pun!).

 

Photo below shows a test piece designed to discover whether 5mm foamcore board might be a suitably stable and reliable track underlay - bearing in mind I have acres of the stuff available free gratis.

 

 

The foamcore board (with its sides cut to a sloping profile) was attached to an offcut of MDF (which I use for my baseboards) using approx 2" wide double-sided carpet tape.

 

The whole thing was then given several mist coats of super-cheap satin black spray paint (from the local car accessory shop) to seal the card surface – the paint did effect the exposed foam edges slightly but not badly enough to stop me trying the next stage...

 

PVA was spread over the painted foamcore, a length of pre-stained Timbertracks sleepering was pressed into the wet adhesive and ballast was sprinkled over the top.

 

After allowing time for the PVA to dry a couple short rail off-cuts of were mounted in chairs and added to see how it looked as trackwork.

 

Outcome? The foamcore stayed flat on the MDF base courtesy of the double-sided tape and the spray coat prevented its card surface from absorbing any adhesive and deforming, which foamcore normally does when it gets even slightly damp! The foam element of the board should (I hope) provide the sound deadening I'm after and yet the card surface is surprisingly strong – I'm guessing it'll resist pressure from above better than plain closed-cell foams whether marketed as track underlay or not.

 

I think I'll do another trial using Copydex to hold the sleepers and first coat of ballast in place for comparison as it's been pointed out that PVA sets rock-hard whilst Copydex stays flexible (even though it pongs a bit).

 

TTFN

 

David

[Warspite]

Photo below shows a test piece designed to discover whether 5mm foamcore board might be a suitably stable and reliable track underlay - bearing in mind I have acres of the stuff available free gratis.

 

David

 

Looks like the basis for a very nice diorama ........... ;-)

 

Seriously though, I'm interested in the outcome of your trial as I do get some booming from my 'track laid on foamboard' on the current layout and your proposed method may be the answer for the 'next' layout.

 

Stephen

[David Siddall]

Looks like the basis for a very nice diorama ........... ;-)

 

Seriously though, I'm interested in the outcome of your trial as I do get some booming from my 'track laid on foamboard' on the current layout and your proposed method may be the answer for the 'next' layout.

 

Well you did suggest downsizing my plans in favour of something more 'achievable' ;-)

 

If you have a minute maybe you could run us through any differences between your use of foamboard and what I'm proposing? My little test-piece, whilst it has some merit in proving that the board faces of 'foamcore' could be waterproofed to resist warping, isn't really much use when it comes to testing any sound-deadening qualities...

 

D