Midland Main Line Electrification

[phil-b259]

Mind you can you imagine the howls from the nimby's etc if the Midland route was rebuilt and wires strung over Millers Dale viaduct.

 

Jamie

 

Indeed.

 

Wiring up the Hope valley route would be of far grater benefit overall (Trans-Pennine / Northern local services along the Manchester - Sheffield axis could also make use of it) as would investment in HS3.

 

Unfortunately, as with the Woodhead route, too many people approach it from the 'railway looking for a situation' angle rather than a practical and real world assessment of whether its reinstatement brings enough benefits to make the exercise worthwhile.

Edited October 1, 2015 by phil-b259

[Reorte]

Mind you can you imagine the howls from the nimby's etc if the Midland route was rebuilt and wires strung over Millers Dale viaduct.

Because anyone who wouldn't like something like that there is a fool who can be dismissed as a "nimby". Good job the things you'd like are definitely 100% correct so it's fine to dismiss anyone else's views like that.

[phil-b259]

Because anyone who wouldn't like something like that there is a fool who can be dismissed as a "nimby". Good job the things you'd like are definitely 100% correct so it's fine to dismiss anyone else's views like that.

I didn't read it as the Jamie92208 dismissing anyone's views, rather a somewhat tongue in check post indicating that any such proposal would certainly bring protests - where as adding wires to the Doncaster - Grimsby line would be much less controversial.

 

For what it's worth we are ALL NIMBYs, including Jamie92208, it just depends on what is being proposed. I have yet to encounter anyone who doesn't give a sod about what happens beyond their boundary fence regardless of what the proposal is.

 

However assuming the MML electrification goes ahead AND it is decieded to reopen the route then you have to acknowledge electrification is a no-brainier so to speak. Those who dismiss electrification as 'ugly' etc, need to understand it is bar far the most efficient, enviromentally friendly (as in power can be greater from green / natural / clean / renewable resources) plus the performance charichteristics are way better than diesel traction.

[Reorte]

I didn't read it as the Jamie92208 dismissing anyone's views, rather a somewhat tongue in check post indicating that any such proposal would certainly bring protests - where as adding wires to the Doncaster - Grimsby line would be much less controversial.

 

For what it's worth we are ALL NIMBYs, including Jamie92208, it just depends on what is being proposed. I have yet to encounter anyone who doesn't give a sod about what happens beyond their boundary fence regardless of what the proposal is.

 

However assuming the MML electrification goes ahead AND it is decieded to reopen the route then you have to acknowledge electrification is a no-brainier so to speak. Those who dismiss electrification as 'ugly' etc, need to understand it is bar far the most efficient, enviromentally friendly (as in power can be greater from green / natural / clean / renewable resources) plus the performance charichteristics are way better than diesel traction.

That's a reasonable weigh up the pros and cons view. I just hear "nimby" trotted out so often when anything is proposed that it sounds like plain outright dismissal of anyone not keen, rather than of those who couldn't care less where something is just as long as it's not next to them (those are the real nimbys); it always seems to carry an implication of "no-one in their right mind could have any issue with this", particularly when coupled with words like "whine." Very much an "I'm right, you're wrong, the things I value are self-evidently correct and the things you value aren't" way of putting things. The word is a bit of a red rag to me.

 

However no, I don't have to acknowledge that electrification would be a no-brainer. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done that way but I'm not at all persuaded that always maximising the practical aspects over everything else is the way to give us the most pleasant world to live in.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Reorte

[phil-b259]

However no, I don't have to acknowledge that electrification would be a no-brainer. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done that way but I'm not at all persuaded that always maximising the practical aspects over everything else is the way to give us the most pleasant world to live in.

You are still perhaps looking at things a little too deeply here. The use of 'non brainer' is, as with the use NIMBY, a generalised overview. Surely you can appreciate from an operating, stock management, performance perspective swooping from electric to Diesel between Matlock and Chinley does not sound in general terms as a very sensible or efficient thing to do from a railway perspective.

 

Therefore were such a reopening to be proposed for use as part of the national network it is almost a dead cert that the reinstatement would feature OHLE equipment. Nobody is saying you have to like such a proposal, nor support it nor that you might wish to campaign against it. However denying the exsistance of the most likely proposal (the 'no brainer' one as I put it) actually does little to make people take your concerns seriously.

Edited October 1, 2015 by phil-b259

[Reorte]

I think we're both looking at things too deeply - I wasn't denying the existence of the most likely proposal (and if there was one I doubt that I'd campaign against it; better to have the railway back even if there were some things I didn't like about it). Anyway enough of that, back to the MML!

 

Interesting that you mention Matlock, is the branch down for electrification when it gets that far? (genuine question out of curiosity this time)

[phil-b259]

I think we're both looking at things too deeply - I wasn't denying the existence of the most likely proposal (and if there was one I doubt that I'd campaign against it; better to have the railway back even if there were some things I didn't like about it). Anyway enough of that, back to the MML!

 

Interesting that you mention Matlock, is the branch down for electrification when it gets that far? (genuine question out of curiosity this time)

 

No firm plans as yet - but it has been talked about because of service patterns (I think the service runs Matlock - Derby- Nottingham) which means with at few extra miles of wiring you could free up some diesel units for elsewhere. Also at one stage (post privatisation) there was a service direct to London to consider. Though if they go for a low cost scheme like Paisley Canal, main line trains may draw too much power to be used.

 

Its the sort of thing BR may have done (like they wired the North Berwick branch when doing the ECML) and given some of the Thames valley branches are getting wires under the GWML scheme Matlock is in with a chance.

[jamie92208]

Sorry if one, rather hastily, chosen word seems to have stirred things up.   My intention was to point out that such a task would have been much easier in 1907 (When it was first mooted) than 2015.  There was certainly well known opposition to the railway through the Peak District.  I personally like electric traction and ma modelling it but am quite happy to admit that OHLE can make photography difficult.  (I just wish that I could capture the spray from a pantograph at speed that I once saw on Shap when driving along the M6).  In todays situation I agree that the Hope Valley route makes a better case and that was the way that the HST service went during the WCML upgrade.  

 

I openly admit that I can be a Nimby, and once succeeded in stopping a new substation being built 50 yards from my front window.  The application was badly written, badly worded and ill thought through. Since then none of the prophesised problems, as  stated by the YEB have come to pass and the existing sub station is still at the bottom of my back garden.

 

My original post was just to show the irony that a missing link today was actually the first Trans Pennine route proposed for electrification.  At the time it would probably have been seen as a great leap forward in removing smoke emitting steam locos from the line.

 

I look forward to seeing the MML wired up soon.

 

Jamie

[PaulCheffus]

Notwithstanding the pros and cons of HS2, it seems a shame to me that the Midland Scheme won't (ever)be extended from Derby to Manchester via the old Midland Main Line. This route incidentally, was not a Beeching Report closure as I understand, but seen as superfluous capacity following the WCML electrification. If this were to be re-built, then not only would the 'powerhouse of the Northwest' be conjoined to the Capital by extra line capacity but so too would be an aspiring East Midlands be linked to both centres. Why is it we only ever seem to do things by halves in this country I wonder? Seventeen miles of line lifted through the Peak in the late sixties, how naff is that when it comes to strategic planning!

 

Hi

 

Just as daft as closing a certain already electrified line between Manchester and Sheffield admittedly at the wrong voltage.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

'The electrification of Midland Mainline north of Bedford to Kettering and Corby will now be completed by 2019, and the line north of Kettering to Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and to Sheffield will finish by 2023.'

 

eight more years of HSTs, yay!

 

eight more years of those bloody meridian things, bleh

 

truly the lord giveth with one hand and taketh away with t'other

[Reorte]

Sorry if one, rather hastily, chosen word seems to have stirred things up.

Apologies for that, it just happens to be one of those things that stir me up.

 

Spray from a pantograph at speed? Perhaps something clever could be done with smoke units to give a similar effect, could you run a very fine pipe for it up the pantograph to the wire?

[jonny777]

Two points; the gwml electrification does actually have wires strung up as of now, in the new reading diesel depot sidings , though doubtful if it will get juice in it for some yet.

 

Yes, I found that a bit strange. And yet even the masts did not seem to be in place at Didcot. I couldn't see any further down the GWML as I was on a train to Worcester.

[Zomboid]

There are lots of masts between Reading and Didcot, and the substation that it'll all connect to can be seen just on the Swindon end of the triangle (power station side of the line). So its not a massive gap, though stations have obstacles like canopies and platforms which rather get in the way I imagine, and if all 4(!) sides of the triangle are being wired then that's some complicated design there, which is ultimately what drives the masts.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Indeed.

 

Wiring up the Hope valley route would be of far grater benefit overall (Trans-Pennine / Northern local services along the Manchester - Sheffield axis could also make use of it) as would investment in HS3.

 

Unfortunately, as with the Woodhead route, too many people approach it from the 'railway looking for a situation' angle rather than a practical and real world assessment of whether its reinstatement brings enough benefits to make the exercise worthwhile.

Surely the boring but practical solution is to start running the long proposed Nottingham to Manchester DMU service via the curve at Totley (to avoid a reversal at Sheffield) and run it via Derby instead of the Erewash line. Reinstated Derby - Manchester services without the need to reopen or electrify anything (and still quicker than the services which reverse at Sheffield). 

Edited October 1, 2015 by pete_mcfarlane

[Reorte]

Surely the boring but practical solution is to start running the long proposed Nottingham to Manchester DMU service via the curve at Totley (to avoid a reversal at Sheffield) and run it via Derby instead of the Erewash line. Reinstated Derby - Manchester services without the need to reopen or electrify anything (and still quicker than the services which reverse at Sheffield). 

Would that possible without losing any Sheffield services (unless you're proposing to wait until after resignalling is done)?

[Edwin_m]

Would that possible without losing any Sheffield services (unless you're proposing to wait until after resignalling is done)?

The Northern Hub is supposed to be creating more capacity on the Hope Valley line, which probably involves re-signalling it.  Capacity through Derby could be more of a problem although the remodelling there might help. 

[ForestPines]

Yes, I found that a bit strange. And yet even the masts did not seem to be in place at Didcot. I couldn't see any further down the GWML as I was on a train to Worcester.

At the Bristol end there is a stack of mast pilings ready to go out to the lineside, but that seems to be all so far.

[wombatofludham]

Didn't the Southern refer to "buffet" cars as Pantry cars in their electric units? To me a pantry is another name for a larder, so perhaps that's where they got the idea from. After all they have adopted a similar dull overall green as the Southern, giving them all the status of a 4-SUB.

[RANGERS]

I noticed signs of activity around Oakley, to the North of Bedford, again this week. Hard to tell what was happening but there were various plant and equipment in the yard to the East of the line.

[Northroader]

Got any great crested newts up past Bedford? We got em here in Bassett! Oh dear, oh dear...

[cheesysmith]

You have to remember that every time you hear about these newts delaying things that we are part of the EU now. The newts are actually a rare and protected species, and across the EU are rare, just that they are common in the UK.

[Talltim]

Sounds like an export opportunity to me...

[Northroader]

What would have happenEd if a foreman had gone up to the great IKB, tugged His forelock aNd said "excuse me, gaffer, I just seen two newts in that ditch", ??

[The Stationmaster]

What would have happenEd if a foreman had gone up to the great IKB, tugged His forelock aNd said "excuse me, gaffer, I just seen two newts in that ditch", ??

'Don't worry my good son of toil, I am having ham & eggs for my breakfast so have no wish to deprive you of yours.'

[Shed]

It's gone quiet on here

What's the latest?