Midland Main Line Electrification

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I wonder how long a "pause" is?

 

Probably the same as a "length of string"...........

[pete_mcfarlane]

Also, particularly as the Breaston option for the East Midlands HS2 station seems to be fading out, the penny is dropping in the region that London journeys from Nottingham and Derby changing at Toton will be no quicker than the existing route.  

I reckon the HS2 station will still be useful, as a big chunk of the population of Nottingham will be closer to Toton than the city centre. HS2 will be no different from the current situation where EMT London trains stop at some of the suburban stations (Beeston and Long Eaton) so that people don't have to travel in to the city.

 

(For people who don't know Nottingham, the 'centre' is actually on the Eastern edge of the conurbation)

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Not sure if those who live in Long Eaton consider themselves as being part of Nottingham, but I take your point. However I've heard that East Midlands Parkway hasn't been the roaring success EMT had hoped for.

 

I imagine the ticket pricing EMT vs HS2 will be THE determining factor for many.

[Edwin_m]

Yes East Midlands Parkway has fallen well short of expectations.  Perhaps now the A453 is no longer a linear roadwork it will be a bit easier to get to. 

 

I agree that Toton will be better for people on the western fringes of Nottingham but it then becomes important to maintain the vitality of the city centre, and also of Derby which is perhaps more vulnerable - compare what happened to the likes of Rotherham and Gateshead when out-of-town centres were built nearby.  Also I content that an out-of-town station sucks prosperity out by allowing affluent car owners easy access elsewhere, but is of little use to the visitors who would bring prosperity in but wouldn't want a "Ryanair station" a longish taxi ride from either city centre or 16 stops on the tram into Nottingham.  Even if there was a non-stop connecting train service with very slick connection times, the 53min London journey time on HS2 plus transfer time plus at least 10min into either city wouldn't be particularly attractive against a time of 90min or less on the existing route. 

[chrisf]

 However I've heard that East Midlands Parkway hasn't been the roaring success EMT had hoped for.

 

I'm not surprised.  It cannot be reached from Bedford without a long fester at Leicester.

 

Chris

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I'd much prefer a direct through service, even if it took slightly longer. Removes worry/hassle of changing trains at Toton (or Breaston or wherever....).

 

Also, doesn't St Pan/KX have better tube connections at the London end than Euston?

[griffgriff]

I'm not surprised.  It cannot be reached from Bedford without a long fester at Leicester.

 

Chris

No problem for me. EMP is my local station and I have no wish to go to Bedford

 

Mind it's difficult going anywhere else unless it's Leicester, Derby, Nottingham or London unless you have read the timetable.

 

Griff

[kenw]

given today's news, i wonder how it will be managed now?

will they still get to Corby and then stop for a while?

 

How far has the actual construction contract already been let? This may be a determining factor

[Edwin_m]

Also, doesn't St Pan/KX have better tube connections at the London end than Euston?

Last I heard the Euston HS2 work will include the long-awaited proper integration of Euston Square, in which case they will be about equally well served (KXSP will have the Piccadilly but Euston will have both branches of the Northern). 

Edited June 27, 2015 by Edwin_m

[JeffP]

One wonder whether the problems of EMP are deeper?

 

My lad used to come home from Loughborough via it.

 

£7, Loughborough to EMP by train, seven minutes, and about 7 miles.

 

Followed by £1 bus to Scunthorpe., 90 minutes and about 70 miles.

 

Pricing just MIGHT have something to do with it?

[RANGERS]

All signs of progress with electrification have evaporated, the yards around Bedford which up until a couple of weeks ago were full of plant and equipment now appear desolate with just the steel pilings and deserted Portacabins.

 

The site at Wellingborough is still being prepared and work on the second track to Corby is continuing at a rate of knots. Removal of S&T trunking, drainage and ballast works continue at the Corby end; track laying North from Kettering has reached the A43 bridge and works on clearing the former down sidings site is underway. Sadly that will remove the last remaining LMS yard lamps which have stood sentinel above the encroaching undergrowth since the sidings were removed in the late 70s.

 

No news on what's happening or predicted on the electrification but there's growing speculation that 2020-21 will be the most likely target for Corby which could tie it with the next phase of the Thameslink franchise.

Edited July 7, 2015 by RANGERS

[ess1uk]

wonder if the resource has been sent elsewhere to assist with the GWML?

[black and decker boy]

wonder if the resource has been sent elsewhere to assist with the GWML?

 

Part of the problem on GWML is there are no completed designs in place (for the structure rebuilds, tunnels, station platforms & canopies etc) so more men on the ground won't make a difference in the short term.

 

I think its more to do with budget than transfer of resources. They can no longer afford to do all 3 schemes in this control period. GWML holds the key to IEP and not paying for trains to sit in sidings. MML has very useable trains and no new ones on order so costs nothing to 'pause'. TPE needs more than just OHLE so they need to stop and work it all out now rather than blunder into a real mess later.

[phil-b259]

Part of the problem on GWML is there are no completed designs in place (for the structure rebuilds, tunnels, station platforms & canopies etc) so more men on the ground won't make a difference in the short term.

 

 

So what about all the work going on in the Bath - Chippenham section then? somehow I doubt everyone has turned up not knowing what they are supposed to be doing.

 

While you do have a point to an extent, with the GWML and NW triangle schemes running late then, having extra OHLE installation expertise is surely helpful - if nothing else it might help limit wage costs (i.e. you don't have to pay a premium becasue there are more people with the necessary skills on the market.

[The Stationmaster]

Part of the problem on GWML is there are no completed designs in place (for the structure rebuilds, tunnels, station platforms & canopies etc) so more men on the ground won't make a difference in the short term.

 

I think its more to do with budget than transfer of resources. They can no longer afford to do all 3 schemes in this control period. GWML holds the key to IEP and not paying for trains to sit in sidings. MML has very useable trains and no new ones on order so costs nothing to 'pause'. TPE needs more than just OHLE so they need to stop and work it all out now rather than blunder into a real mess later.

I reckon there might have been some movement of resources as a number of additional road rail vehicles appear to have arrived at Moreton Cutting compared with the number which used to be there (although that might just be a staging thing or they've come from the north-west) but yes - it seems to have mainly about moving work out of the current Control Period.

 

Incidentally station canopy work has been done - rather neatly and not so easy to spot until you look closely (unlike the mess Crossrail have inflicted on Maidenhead) - at at least one station (although possibly it was an experiment to test the proposed method as it would be suitable for most if not all canopies as they have a standard structure having mostly been built around the same time?).

[black and decker boy]

So what about all the work going on in the Bath - Chippenham section then? somehow I doubt everyone has turned up not knowing what they are supposed to be doing.

 

 

I work for one of the civils contractors working on that area and in terms of structures, we are 12months into an 18month contract and have built 1 structure of note and have spent most of the time digging trial holes, taking boreholes etc so that the NR designer can start his designs. We still have very little in the way of finished designs from NR & their designer to go out and build and we need to do our bit before you can string up the knitting (well energise it anyway). 6 months ago, we were a year behind schedule so I think you can safely say it is now worse than that.

 

It looks like we hit the ground in earnest this November and will be having a manic 2016 but don't expect any IEP on OHLE anywhere near Bath in 2016 or a good chunk of 2017.

[Re6/6]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34402592

 

Back on again!

[jamie92208]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34402592

 

Back on again!

 

That's good news.   Just hope that they actually start stringing the knitting a bit faster than GWML.  It's now over 5 years since that was authorised and no knitting yet strung.  It will also help the GC with a firm timetable for their new bridge at Loughborough.

 

Jamie

[The Stationmaster]

Back on but, in railway parlance, skidded with everything put back by at least two years and everything north of Kettering/Corby pushed back into CP6  (which was only to be expected when the original announcement was made).

[Captain Nick]

Notwithstanding the pros and cons of HS2, it seems a shame to me that the Midland Scheme won't (ever)be extended from Derby to Manchester via the old Midland Main Line. This route incidentally, was not a Beeching Report closure as I understand, but seen as superfluous capacity following the WCML electrification. If this were to be re-built, then not only would the 'powerhouse of the Northwest' be conjoined to the Capital by extra line capacity but so too would be an aspiring East Midlands be linked to both centres. Why is it we only ever seem to do things by halves in this country I wonder? Seventeen miles of line lifted through the Peak in the late sixties, how naff is that when it comes to strategic planning!

[jamie92208]

Notwithstanding the pros and cons of HS2, it seems a shame to me that the Midland Scheme won't (ever)be extended from Derby to Manchester via the old Midland Main Line. This route incidentally, was not a Beeching Report closure as I understand, but seen as superfluous capacity following the WCML electrification. If this were to be re-built, then not only would the 'powerhouse of the Northwest' be conjoined to the Capital by extra line capacity but so too would be an aspiring East Midlands be linked to both centres. Why is it we only ever seem to do things by halves in this country I wonder? Seventeen miles of line lifted through the Peak in the late sixties, how naff is that when it comes to strategic planning!

As a coincidence Derby to Manchester via Matlock and Millers Dale was going to be the Midland's first mailine electrificatin with 80 ton Bo-Bo's under 6.6Kv AC.   The Lancaster to Heysham scheme was the test bed for the mainlne scheme.  They also looked at the Aire Valey suburban routes and St Pancras Bedford.

 

Jamie

Edited October 1, 2015 by jamie92208

[Northroader]

Two points; the gwml electrification does actually have wires strung up as of now, in the new reading diesel depot sidings , though doubtful if it will get juice in it for some yet.

Second. On the west coast electrification, the Whitehall bean counters decided in their wisdom that in order to justify the cost, all possible traffic should be forced to go by way of the wcml. Bye- bye St.pancras. - Manchester, Farewell Paddington- Birmingham and Birkenhead, shut down Matlock - Buxton, close Wolverhampton L.L etc., It makes you wonder how Chiltern Rail and Virgin Trains will get on once HS2 gets going?

[jamie92208]

Two points; the gwml electrification does actually have wires strung up as of now, in the new reading diesel depot sidings , though doubtful if it will get juice in it for some yet.

Second. On the west coast electrification, the Whitehall bean counters decided in their wisdom that in order to justify the cost, all possible traffic should be forced to go by way of the wcml. Bye- bye St.pancras. - Manchester, Farewell Paddington- Birmingham and Birkenhead, shut down Matlock - Buxton, close Wolverhampton L.L etc., It makes you wonder how Chiltern Rail and Virgin Trains will get on once HS2 gets going?

Mind you can you imagine the howls from the nimby's etc if the Midland route was rebuilt and wires strung over Millers Dale viaduct.

 

Jamie

[phil-b259]

Two points; the gwml electrification does actually have wires strung up as of now, in the new reading diesel depot sidings , though doubtful if it will get juice in it for some yet.

Second. On the west coast electrification, the Whitehall bean counters decided in their wisdom that in order to justify the cost, all possible traffic should be forced to go by way of the wcml. Bye- bye St.pancras. - Manchester, Farewell Paddington- Birmingham and Birkenhead, shut down Matlock - Buxton, close Wolverhampton L.L etc., It makes you wonder how Chiltern Rail and Virgin Trains will get on once HS2 gets going?

 

HS2 will not serve Coventry, Rugby, Milton Keynes, Lemington Spa, Banbury, Bicester (massive amounts of new housing being built over the next few years) or High Wycombe so there will still be plenty of demand along the traditional routes. Furthermore HS2 services will include a premium mark up (as with HS1) so travellers on a budget or those with time to spare will still look for less expensive options.

 

After all the MML didn't exactly die after it lost the St Pancras - Manchester trains did it. Derby Nottingham, Sheffield, Leicester are not on the WCML and still required a decent service.

Edited October 1, 2015 by phil-b259

[lmsforever]

Chiltern will still prosper once HS2 is running as none in Bucks Oxon can get on the dam thing and the fares will put many off saving 15 minutes ,so I expect that fares could drop to the benefit of all ordinary passengers.