Midland Main Line Electrification

[ess1uk]

Yet more hybrid trains (DEMU) on order then?

HSTs won't last for ever

Hitachi won't be able to build them fast enough

[RANGERS]

The rumbles that electrification will never happen beyond Leicester has been rumbling for some time and has grown significantly in recent weeks, so this is no surprise. HS2 is going to happen, it'll cost a huge amount of money, even on current projections, so value for money is paramount. Channeling as much traffic as possible down HS2 is the only way to build a business case to justify the expense so any excuse to delay/ prevent the improvement of what will be a competing route, aids that case.

 

If electrification is delayed to within a few years of HS2 reaching the area, it'll be cited as not worthwhile pursuing, better to use the potential of HS2 to provide a faster service for Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield to London, and this latest announcement confirms thats not far from where we are at the moment. Theres a feeling that most MML London services will go to Leicester and a future EMT franchise will provide local, Northbound connections into HS2 and to Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield. The passenger volumes heading from intermediate stations South of Leicester to stations beyond Leicester are pitifully few in the great scheme of things so there's little weight to the argument that direct services beyond Leicester are an essential part of the plan. London passengers would of course travel on HS2.

 

It's a sad state of affairs but there's a very real likelihood that the complete electrification of the MML is a dead duck.

 

Questions are also being asked about the Trans-Pennine Tunnel project, a firm proposal for which was due in July but which now seems to be in the same "black hole" as MML electrification.

[Dava]

Anyone might think we'd been misled or even lied to by Govt about the prospects for MML electrification by 2023?

 

Surely that would not happen? Maybe it has.

 

In any other developed European country the MML & GWML would have been electrified decades ago, rather than relying on the life-extended Derby-engineering wonder of the IC125. But then, we don't want to be a European country, so all becomes clear. Loughborough and Nottingham risk joining Lincoln as branch line economies off HS2 and ECML as the Virgin-branded operators cream off huge profits from extortionate fares. It wouldn't be like this in, say, Belgium or Holland...

 

Dava

[pete_mcfarlane]

So it's been delayed by another year or two, and the local newspapers and MPs (many from the opposition party) are frothing and making a big fuss. 

Edited November 9, 2016 by pete_mcfarlane

[DY444]

The rumour is that EMT have been told to start looking at the brochures for new diesel only trains ...

[phil-b259]

The rumour is that EMT have been told to start looking at the brochures for new diesel only trains ...

 

I hope not - because there is no reason why EMT cannot use the wires south of Bedford and stop filling St Pancras with diesel fumes.

 

I think a lot will depend on the IEPs - if GWR have ordered them for the Plymouth runs they must have some confidence that they can be made to match the HSTs and thus there wouldn't be a big issue in supplying similar sets for the MML

Edited November 9, 2016 by phil-b259

[melmerby]

Yet more hybrid trains (DEMU) on order then?

 

Knowing the current state of rail planning it'll be a pair of 73/9s sandwiching some refurb coaches.

 

Keith

[RANGERS]

Knowing the current state of rail planning it'll be a pair of 73/9s sandwiching some refurb coaches.

 

Keith

 

Well it ticks the hybrid box...

[SwissRailPassion]

So it's been delayed by another year or two, and the local newspapers and MPs (many from the opposition party) are frothing and making a big fuss.

 

Quite right there should be a fuss. The MML had a much better business case than the GWML back in 2009. Politicians chose GWML above the more sensible option. MML was an easier and cheaper job.

I doubt MML will be electrified before 2025 if at all.

[melmerby]

Well it ticks the hybrid box...

Nobody will notice the lack of pantographs!

 

Keith

[DY444]

I hope not - because there is no reason why EMT cannot use the wires south of Bedford and stop filling St Pancras with diesel fumes.

 

I think a lot will depend on the IEPs - if GWR have ordered them for the Plymouth runs they must have some confidence that they can be made to match the HSTs and thus there wouldn't be a big issue in supplying similar sets for the MML

 

Roger Ford has now tweeted about diesel only new trains for MML.  He doesn't often get this sort of stuff wrong.

 

My understanding is that the concern with the IEP on diesel is at higher speeds.  On the B&H and Devon Banks where speeds are lower it should be OK.  The time keeping issues are more likely on 125mph stretches.   One of the power feeding points on the GW scheme is at Thingley which is one of the reasons why the Box road is getting ole as far as there but it also (conveniently you might say) means that IEPs don't have to face the climb of Dauntsey bank from a standing start at Chippenham on diesel power.  That was one of the places where unflattering comparisons with HST performance were a possibility.

 

The MML is not flat and has an uneven speed profile.  I would be surprised if an IEP on diesel can keep the current point to point times.

Edited November 10, 2016 by DY444

[phil-b259]

Roger Ford has now tweeted about diesel only new trains for MML.  He doesn't often get this sort of stuff wrong.

 

My understanding is that the concern with the IEP on diesel is at higher speeds.  On the B&H and Devon Banks where speeds are lower it should be OK.  The time keeping issues are more likely on 125mph stretches.   One of the power feeding points on the GW scheme is at Thingley which is one of the reasons why the Box road is getting ole as far as there but it also (conveniently you might say) means that IEPs don't have to face the climb of Dauntsey bank from a standing start at Chippenham on diesel power.  That was one of the places where unflattering comparisons with HST performance were a possibility.

 

The MML is not flat and has an uneven speed profile.  I would be surprised if an IEP on diesel can keep the current point to point times.

 

The question is though, if not the IEP, what else?

 

There are no 12mph diesel locos to UK loading gauge available as 'off the shelf designs' as it were - ditto carriages (the trans-pennine ones are 110max I think - partly due to the use of 68s as motive power).  Of course you could design such a loco - and use it with rebuilt Mk4 sets (as the owners proposed doing fr the ECML at one stage)

 

Given the rise in passenger demand a multiple unit solution provides the maximum of passenger space on board and allows easy portion working where line capacity is scarce

 

Given the long lifespan of trains, its quite likely that by the time they reach their mid life overhauls, electrification will have resumed / been finished.

 

Also the IEP is a flexible train in concept - are we sure Hitachi cannot do something clever and give them more oomph under diesel.

[Reorte]

There are no 12mph diesel locos to UK loading gauge available as 'off the shelf designs' as it were - ditto carriages (the trans-pennine ones are 110max I think - partly due to the use of 68s as motive power).  Of course you could design such a loco - and use it with rebuilt Mk4 sets (as the owners proposed doing fr the ECML at one stage)

12mph locos? No spare 08s?

 

Seriously though as much as I'd like to see that would it end up being a small, specialist order? Doesn't sound terribly viable really.

[ess1uk]

Are we back to adding an electric option to Meridians? Or is that completely dead and buried?

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Are we back to adding an electric option to Meridians? Or is that completely dead and buried?

 

Let's hope so, vile things that they are

[jamie92208]

Are we back to adding an electric option to Meridians? Or is that completely dead and buried?

 

As far as I know, it is buried.   Apparently some work was done on it but they would have had to rewire the whole train as the wiring that in won't take the traction currents.  The cars either side of the transformer car would need to have very highly rated wiring as they would pass the power for the remaining cars etc.  IIRC either Roger Ford or Ian Walmsley wrote that up in Modern Railways.

 

Jamie

[Zomboid]

MML stock doesn't need to be 125 does it? I thought the top speed on that route was 110 (in which case 68s & mk5s might be a sensible option, with the possibility of using electric locos at a later date).

[RANGERS]

MML stock doesn't need to be 125 does it? I thought the top speed on that route was 110 (in which case 68s & mk5s might be a sensible option, with the possibility of using electric locos at a later date).

 

A number of stretches are now 125mph and schedules were retimed to take advantage of this in 2014.

[corneliuslundie]

It is not GWR which has ordered the IEPs for the West of England. They have been specified by the government and the East Coast and GWR operators told that is what they can have..

[jamie92208]

It is not GWR which has ordered the IEPs for the West of England. They have been specified by the government and the East Coast and GWR operators told that is what they can have..

 

GWR have placed a further order off their own bat specifically for the West of England services. These are going to be class 802, 22 x  5 car and 7 x 9 car units. They are being built at Pistoia in Italy at the old Ansaldo Breda plant that Hitachi have bought out and will have the fully rated engines which the IEP's procured by DaFT don't have.   It is also rumoured that they are considerably cheaper than the ones procured by DaFT.

 

Jamie

Edited November 11, 2016 by jamie92208

[Edwin_m]

It is also rumoured that they are considerably cheaper than the ones procured by DaFT.

It would be surprising if they weren't.  The original DfT orders covered all the design costs so apart from the minor adjustments to engine ratings and fuel capacity this is a run-on order.  Of course they might be even cheaper if the market had been left to allow several suppliers to come up with competitive bi-mode designs - as it is we are pretty much in a monopoly situation. 

[DY444]

GWR have placed a further order off their own bat specifically for the West of England services. These are going to be class 802, 22 x  5 car and 7 x 9 car units. They are being built at Pistoia in Italy at the old Ansaldo Breda plant that Hitachi have bought out and will have the fully rated engines which the IEP's procured by DaFT don't have.   It is also rumoured that they are considerably cheaper than the ones procured by DaFT.

 

Jamie

 

The engine rating is the same on both variants.  The difference is that the engine management software on the DfT batch runs the engine at a lower maximum output if all the engines are operational.  If one or more engines are shut down then the software allows the operational engines to run at maximum output.

 

Negotiations are in hand to configure the DfT batch software to run at maximum engine output so that they can be operated as a common fleet with the WoE batch.

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

Negotiations are in hand to configure the DfT batch software to run at maximum engine output so that they can be operated as a common fleet with the WoE batch.

 

Which presumably might also mean that they would be able to get nearer to, or even match, HST timings.   Seems DafT have dug their way into yet another corner where Hitachi might well slap a whopping great variation cost on them and ask for the contracted availability to be reconsidered due to more running on diesel power.  I wonder if that has been factored into the NAO.s calculations? (sorry, rhetorical question)

[jamie92208]

Which presumably might also mean that they would be able to get nearer to, or even match, HST timings.   Seems DafT have dug their way into yet another corner where Hitachi might well slap a whopping great variation cost on them and ask for the contracted availability to be reconsidered due to more running on diesel power.  I wonder if that has been factored into the NAO.s calculations? (sorry, rhetorical question)

 

Uncle Roger has already covered that point in Modern Railways and expects that f Hitachi agree to the uprating it will cost us (the taxpayer) even more.  Already the lease costs for the train are a lot higher than anything else running on the railways at present.

 

Jamie

[jjb1970]

If the MML services want a dual mode train then Hitachi could offer a train with suitable performance on diesel. I have no doubt about that. So could Bombardier or Siemens (among others) but any alternatives would be in a position of having to recoup design and development costs from a possible MML order. Hitachi will be able to leverage their existing IEP design. For all I'm not a fan of the dual mode concept, in this instance it would seem to make sense.

On IEP and Hitachi, we can't blame Hitachi for taking advantage of an opportunity presented to them by DafT idiocy. They've played the DafT game, DafT were in charge of the IEP process. What I find amazing is that in the light of evidence that DafT are the last people in the world who should be allowed to run a railway, so many still see nationalisation as a panacea. Does anybody believe a new BR would be allowed to manage itself free of ineptitude and interference from DafT?