Midland Main Line Electrification

[woodenhead]

If it's cost then if you ask the Government it will be a case of leave it be and the trains will have to go on diesel for a few yards.

[RANGERS]

EMT have announced timetable changes which will appear to many to reflect a first step towards the widely criticised proposals in the recent consultation.

 

A lack of available paths south of Bedford and the need to maximise the paths through the Blackfriars core seem to be the cause of the changes, and this is with only 19p/hr through there, the max of 24 won't be reached until 2020-21 I believe. This suggests that post-electrification, those paths won't magically increase so the only way for a half hourly Corby will be to extend the new, fast services to Bedford right through, effectively making Corby the Northern terminal for Thameslink.

 

The announcement has sparked much speculation over what the new timetable will look like, particularly for Wellingborough/ Kettering/ Corby and there's also a question over direct Corby services in the peak. All direct services currently serve Bedford and Luton to maximise the use of capacity, its doubtful whether Corby/ Kettering/ Wellingborough could fill a five car set with the current frequency, so either Kettering and Wellingborough lose some peak trains to concentrate the demand on fewer services or Corby looks set to lose the two evening and one morning through train.

 

We'll know the answers in February. Details as they are can be found here https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/information/media/news/Introduction-of-new-Thameslink-timetable-results-in-changes-to-East-Midlands-Trains-services/

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

... and yet still no electric trains to Leicester, Derby, Nottingham or Sheffield.  Pitiful.

[RANGERS]

... and yet still no electric trains to Leicester, Derby, Nottingham or Sheffield.  Pitiful

Making sure the business case for HS2 stacked up killed any idea that other services to the East Mids and S Yorks were ever going to get any improvement. Making sure the options were poor was key to that.

[Edwin_m]

Making sure the business case for HS2 stacked up killed any idea that other services to the East Mids and S Yorks were ever going to get any improvement. Making sure the options were poor was key to that.

The business case for HS2 was done well before the cancellation of any of the electrification.  Leicester-London will not benefit at all from HS2 so fast trains are still needed. 

[Mark Saunders]

EMT have announced timetable changes which will appear to many to reflect a first step towards the widely criticised proposals in the recent consultation.

 

A lack of available paths south of Bedford and the need to maximise the paths through the Blackfriars core seem to be the cause of the changes, and this is with only 19p/hr through there, the max of 24 won't be reached until 2020-21 I believe. This suggests that post-electrification, those paths won't magically increase so the only way for a half hourly Corby will be to extend the new, fast services to Bedford right through, effectively making Corby the Northern terminal for Thameslink.

 

The announcement has sparked much speculation over what the new timetable will look like, particularly for Wellingborough/ Kettering/ Corby and there's also a question over direct Corby services in the peak. All direct services currently serve Bedford and Luton to maximise the use of capacity, its doubtful whether Corby/ Kettering/ Wellingborough could fill a five car set with the current frequency, so either Kettering and Wellingborough lose some peak trains to concentrate the demand on fewer services or Corby looks set to lose the two evening and one morning through train.

 

We'll know the answers in February. Details as they are can be found here https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/information/media/news/Introduction-of-new-Thameslink-timetable-results-in-changes-to-East-Midlands-Trains-services/

 

I remember the good old days when people were prepared to change trains!

[Chris116]

I remember the good old days when people were prepared to change trains!

One of the problems with changing trains is that if the train you are on is running late the connecting service will not be held. I have even had a case when a train arrived 15 minutes late and the connecting service left from the other side of an island platform with both trains moving at the same time. Just a minute would have enabled everyone to make the change instead of a 59 minute wait for the next train. I asked the station staff why they could not hold the train and was told that under the rules set by the Government they were penalised for doing so! The TOC then informed me that they would not issue a delay refund as neither train had been half an hour late and they did not pay if customers missed connections!

[Mark Saunders]

One of the problems with changing trains is that if the train you are on is running late the connecting service will not be held. I have even had a case when a train arrived 15 minutes late and the connecting service left from the other side of an island platform with both trains moving at the same time. Just a minute would have enabled everyone to make the change instead of a 59 minute wait for the next train. I asked the station staff why they could not hold the train and was told that under the rules set by the Government they were penalised for doing so! The TOC then informed me that they would not issue a delay refund as neither train had been half an hour late and they did not pay if customers missed connections!

 

Please read in context to the reply I made where there is a metro frequent service rather than just dismiss out of hand that not all journeys can be made on one train!

[Chris116]

Please read in context to the reply I made where there is a metro frequent service rather than just dismiss out of hand that not all journeys can be made on one train!

I was not dismissing anything. The Corby services that I thought you were replying to are hardly Metro. I made it clear that the problem was with services that run at hourly frequencies. I would also say that I travel all over the country by train as I got rid of my car fourteen years ago and I am not a fan of buses. I regularly make journeys where one or two changes are required and have no problem with that except when there are delays and connections are not held for the sake of a very small delay on the second train which then leaves passengers with a very long delay.

[Dava]

The business case for HS2 was done well before the cancellation of any of the electrification.  Leicester-London will not benefit at all from HS2 so fast trains are still needed.

 

We saw yet again the effects of lack of MML investment this morning with a points failure south of Leicester and London trains backed up & cancelled. And we get a fare increase next month. The real MML [the trunk route to Nottingham & Sheffield, not the new electro-commuter line to Corby] is just set to decline yet has increasing passenger loadings.

 

Dava

[phil-b259]

I asked the station staff why they could not hold the train and was told that under the rules set by the Government they were penalised for doing so!

 

Correct!

 

The DfT set the rules around train performance measures and TOCS are naturally only really going to be concerned about meeting those so as to protect their profits and reputation with officials.

 

 

The TOC then informed me that they would not issue a delay refund as neither train had been half an hour late and they did not pay if customers missed connections!

 

That is total tosh and someone in he TOC needs re-training. Delay repay / compensation kicks in if you are late at your final destination and provided the connection is a valid one on the timetable enquiry search engine (i.e. it complies with the published minimum connection times) the fact that the train that caused you to miss your connection was only 10minutes late does not matter! You are still entitled to compensation based on the overall delay experted over the entire journey.

 

Please remember a train ticket is a legal contract between you the customer and ALL the TOCS on which it is valid covering you for the entire journey between the stations mentioned. A valuable a legacy of the way privatisation sought to protect the national through ticketing setup British Rail provided in a post privatisation world which actually provides significant protection when things go wrong.

Edited December 12, 2017 by phil-b259

[RANGERS]

The business case for HS2 was done well before the cancellation of any of the electrification.  Leicester-London will not benefit at all from HS2 so fast trains are still needed.

 

Fast trains to London might be needed in the eyes of anyone in Leicester, but they aren't making the decisions. The fastest route to London is likely to be via Toton and HS2.

[jamie92208]

Fast trains to London might be needed in the eyes of anyone in Leicester, but they aren't making the decisions. The fastest route to London is likely to be via Toton and HS2.

 

When Chris Grayling announced and extra £300 million for links form HS2 phase 2 to improve connectivity at the party conference in Manchester various cities were mentioned and \leister was one of them.  The details haven't yet been announced but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a west to south chord included near East Midlands Parkway.

 

Jamie

[Sir TophamHatt]

The fastest route to London is likely to be via Toton and HS2.

 

I've not seen the timings, but I suspect a 30 min journey north, plus 45 mins south won't make much sense for people of Leicester.

[Edwin_m]

I've not seen the timings, but I suspect a 30 min journey north, plus 45 mins south won't make much sense for people of Leicester.

Indeed.  It's supposed to be 53min from Toton to London, and Leicester to Toton might be 20min if there is a direct train with few stops.  With MML taking an hour Leicester to London the HS2 route is longer even without considering the connection time. 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I think the fastest Leicester - London trains are 65 minutes.  I wonder if sub-60 minutes is feasible with some line improvements, even without electric traction.  There are some speed restrictions at various places and the approaches at Leicester and St P are tediously slow.

 

I know it's unlikely, on cost grounds.  

[chrisf]

It is true that the MML timetable needs recasting and I can understand the imperatives for faster times between London, Leicester and the North.  The needs of those travelling between Luton/Bedford and Leicester/north thereof have been steadfastly ignored under the present franchise so that Corby can have a service.  I do not begrudge the good people of Corby a decent train service but I do feel that it could have been provided in such a way as not to deprive other centres.  The forthcoming recast needs to seriously improve connections at Leicester.  I do not know whether anyone in Bedford has a burning desire to travel to East Midlands Parkway but at present the one train an hour available to them passes through EMP without stopping.  Surely this is easy to correct?

 

At the last AGM of Bedford Commuters Association I asked whether 12 car electric trains would fit into platforms 1 - 4 at St Pancras High Level.  The answer appears to be affirmative.  It would be unwise to assume, I fancy, that electrics to Corby will come from the Thameslink fleet.

 

Chris

[Edwin_m]

It is true that the MML timetable needs recasting and I can understand the imperatives for faster times between London, Leicester and the North.  The needs of those travelling between Luton/Bedford and Leicester/north thereof have been steadfastly ignored under the present franchise so that Corby can have a service.  I do not begrudge the good people of Corby a decent train service but I do feel that it could have been provided in such a way as not to deprive other centres.  The forthcoming recast needs to seriously improve connections at Leicester.  I do not know whether anyone in Bedford has a burning desire to travel to East Midlands Parkway but at present the one train an hour available to them passes through EMP without stopping.  Surely this is easy to correct?

 

At the last AGM of Bedford Commuters Association I asked whether 12 car electric trains would fit into platforms 1 - 4 at St Pancras High Level.  The answer appears to be affirmative.  It would be unwise to assume, I fancy, that electrics to Corby will come from the Thameslink fleet.

I also hope in the eventual timetable the EMUs on the Corby service will be of more of a medium-distance nature than the Thameslink units.  As a consequence they would not be welcome in the Thameslink tunnels so would terminate at St Pancras high level (four platforms should be enough for one extra train per hour once some of the turnaround times are reduced).  But I think the timetable planning should start from Kettering not Leicester, to provide connections in all directions between the Corby services and the semi-fasts going further north so that both Bedford/Luton and Corby have good connections to and from Leicester.  This would avoid the need to stop MML semi-fasts south of Kettering, except for perhaps some Luton Airport Parkway calls as the airport is quite important to the East Midlands. 

 

The main purpose of East Midlands Parkway was to provide for London journeys from the fairly affluent areas around it, where many car-borne business travellers drive to Grantham for easier access and faster trains than any of the other MML stations.  Access to the airport is something of a red herring as several other stations have frequent buses.  I guess this situation continues until 2032 although it hasn't been as successful as the projections suggested.  After that Toton is likely to grab most of the London park and ride market and I thiink the Parkway might reduce to being a call for the Nottingham-Leicester locals and perhaps a London-Derby semi-fast only. 

[DY444]

  It would be unwise to assume, I fancy, that electrics to Corby will come from the Thameslink fleet.

 

Chris

 

The rumour mill favourites seem to be 379s or 360s when released from GA or 350s when released from the franchise formerly known as LM (can't remember what it is called now!).  The only way I can see TL stock being used is if it turns out they've ordered way too many sets for whatever ends up being the final steady state TL timetable (or as a stop gap pending other stock being released).

Edited December 15, 2017 by DY444

[Zomboid]

There's several EMUs which will be looking for a home fairly soon. SWRs 707s could also be in the mix, though they'll probably go for something where the interior isn't inner suburban and the transformers are already fitted.

 

Now wait for the whinging about "someone else's cast offs", as if a 5 year old train is some kind of jalopy.

[RANGERS]

There's several EMUs which will be looking for a home fairly soon. SWRs 707s could also be in the mix, though they'll probably go for something where the interior isn't inner suburban and the transformers are already fitted.

 

Now wait for the whinging about "someone else's cast offs", as if a 5 year old train is some kind of jalopy.

 

The whinging isn't likely to be about the age of the trains, more likely about paying the inter-city fare premium for outer suburban services.

[great central]

The whinging isn't likely to be about the age of the trains, more likely about paying the inter-city fare premium for outer suburban services.

If it goes down that route expect something like operator specific fares like on the East Coast from Peterborough. There's one fairly regular traveller from Spalding buys a day return from Spalding to Peterborough, a GN only peak single from Peterborough to Kings Cross and an any permitted single back to Peterborough. Cheapest combination for a working day in London

[RANGERS]

If it goes down that route expect something like operator specific fares like on the East Coast from Peterborough. There's one fairly regular traveller from Spalding buys a day return from Spalding to Peterborough, a GN only peak single from Peterborough to Kings Cross and an any permitted single back to Peterborough. Cheapest combination for a working day in London

 

We already have a bizarre discrepancy, a std day return from Corby or Kettering to Bedford and a similar from Bedford to LStP is just over half the cost of a std ticket from Kettering to LStP. The Bedford ticket is of course valid on all operator trains.

 

If tickets were discriminatory between operators but brought points from Wellingborough northward into line with the cost per mile to Bedford, most would welcome it. The likelihood is though that the fares for Wellingborough northward will remain higher than those to Bedford.

[Shed]

not much sign of any wires when i passed the other day.

is it starting at Bedford and heading north or are there pockets of works along the whole route?

[RANGERS]

not much sign of any wires when i passed the other day.

is it starting at Bedford and heading north or are there pockets of works along the whole route?

 

Multiple sites along the route. Piling for mast bases is progressing well at five or six locations on the main line. Doubling of the slow lines is underway north from Sharnbrook, and between Wellingborough and Kettering and is almost complete north of Kettering. On the Corby branch the mast piling is almost complete and masts have started to appear between Storefield and Geddington.

 

Controversially the work to adapt the canopies at Kettering has started with the dismantling of two sections to assess what will be required to meet safe clearances whilst retaining as much as possible of the original.