Best coach kit for a beginner?

[Star-rider]

I think the right way is the way that suits the individual’s personal skill-set and confidence.

 

For the “box” of my coaches the sides and ends are soldered together and the steps pushed through the ends and soldered internally and that is almost the limit of the soldering that I do. The roof is superglued on after all of the ventilators and tanks are fitted and the corridor connections and cables then superglued to the ends.

 

Where the frames for the door droplights are supplied as a separate etch, some may solder these to the inside of the sides. Personally I prefer to pre-paint these in the mahogany colour and after the sides are built and painted I run a little impact adhesive around the inside of the aperture, balance the droplight on my fingertip and the offer it up into position. The reason for this is simply that I don’t have the talent to paint such a small margin without making a mess of the surrounding cream paintwork (and it is another thing I don’t have to solder!)

 

Pretty much the same with the undeframe – it is folded up as per the instructions and any brass –to –brass junctions are soldered. The whitemetal fittings (buffers, battery boxes, dynamo etc.) are then superglued into place. The Comet instructions suggest forming the foot-boards by projecting some wire through the solebars and soldering some scrap brass to these. I have done this on a couple of my models but now I just glue on 3.2mm plastic angle (Evergreen 294). OK, it is not right, but it works for me and is another soldering job avoided.

 

You can solder whitemetal to brass but as Siberian says, you will need to consider a variable power soldering iron and different solders. When I purchased my first kit I was not sure that it was going to be for me, so confined my outlay to a basic iron and a single roll of solder.  I have not yet seen any reason to change my approach but if you suddenly discover that soldering is a joy and what has been missing from your life for all of these years the equipment is out there to do it. I suspect that perhaps the reason that some use solder for jointing the whitemetal to brass is down to “custom and practice”. Modern adhesives were not around when brass kits were first introduced so soldering was the only option. Maybe a more experienced builder will step forward and give us the true reason!

 

I do fit things like door handles and grab rails after painting because it strikes me that the sides would be much harder to mask up for a brown / cream colour scheme with various bits of metalwork poking out - again, just confidence in one’s own ability. I secure these internally with a bit of Impact adhesive; as mentioned in my previous post  superglue should be avoided once there is paint on the model as it will destroy the finish.

 

Really, don’t worry about soldering, buy a kit!

[hayfield]

I have had a couple of one hour journeys today so had time to think about this question, also I am in the middle of building a Comet Coaches kit.

 

Its very easy to recommend your favourite kit/manufacturer, but in the end you have to think what's best for the novice builder.

 

The easiest kit must be a 4 wheeled coach, and I would exclude etched kits for a first model, as most of these are highly detailed. For me a Ratio 4 wheel coach would be my first choice for a beginner. They are readily available, cheap and easy to build and require the minimum of tools and a good set of instructions. A set of metal wheels and some seating. Similarly a K's 4 wheel coach is not too much harder to build, though mainly available as s/h built models which need taking apart and cleaning prior to rebuilding, as for the Ratio bogie coaches, I would advise getting a few simpler kits under your belt first

 

Having said that perhaps it might be better building a few vans and wagons first, though not a coach may produce vehicles of the correct region and era rather than a coach from the wrong region and era

 

I am enjoying building a Comet coach, whilst in the distant past I have used their parts to make coaches, this is the first full kit I have built. It would have helped finding the online instructions prior to starting the build, as I could have made life a bit easier for my self. But I am enjoying the build very much, about to order the next coach for the rake and have learnt some valuable lessons during the build, is it good for a complete novice, I would say no, but within the ability of someone who has had a bit of experience of building a few simpler models. I can really recommend these kits which are well within the abilities of the average modeller  

[hayfield]

I have the 2 books by Stephen Williams The 4mm Coach part one and 2  http://www.amazon.co.uk/4mm-Coach-First-Principles-Projects/dp/1874103127/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1447013878&sr=8-1&keywords=the+4+mm+coach

 

I was stunned at the prices as it seems they are out of print. Part one is quite interesting and does cover adding brass sides to ready to run coaches, in part 2  building a Comet full kit among other things. Also I guess Carriage modelling made easy is also out of print, not seen a copy but a photo is on the Wild Swann site

 

Might be worth trying to pick up a copy at one of the smaller shows where prices are not as high

[OnTheBranchline]

Now that the new Hornby Colletts are coming out, the old ones will be even cheaper to get.

[OnTheBranchline]

I would like to offer another suggestion in the BSL/Phoenix coaches. I appreciate that not all modellers like alluminium but as a first coach attempt there is very little to go wrong, they are all glue construction and they crop up quite regularly at very reasonable prices. The two below were bought for £4 each from an exhibition. I recently bought 2x H26 for £10. Shown are the older ones with a wooden roof that are fine provided you prime with PVA and clean up with sandpaper. Later kits have a preformed aluminium roof. There are no bogies or underframes but these can be purchased from 247 and again can be glue assembled. Yes doors need scribing - I use a Stanley knife and T square. Hinges are from microstrip. I know others prefer etched hinges but drilling and soldering 60 hinges into a C46 is time consuming and boring. I can hinge an entire side in less than15 mins. Painting is straight forward provided you prime properly. I use Halfords or similar car primer and leave it a week to harden in the airing cupboard. This also protects the hinges - I havent lost any yet through handling.

 

I started my coach building with BSL and within a short period of time I had learnt enough of basic coach construction to tackle some of the more exotic brass kits. As an endorsement, last month, I was watching trains of them running on the Vale scene at Pendon.

 

Just another suggestion

 

Good luck

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

I have a question, why wouldn't they include the bogies or underframes in the kit rather than selling them separately?

[Coach bogie]

I have a question, why wouldn't they include the bogies or underframes in the kit rather than selling them separately?

I assume as modellers have their own preference. Pendon run many of the ex BSL kits and the underframes are not detailed enough for Pendon's standards. At the time they came out in the 1970's, there was a wide choice of parts, bogies etc to choose from. I know someone who used GEM flexi bogies (who remembers them). It was a time when complete kits were not in favour (think K's) as there was so much choice.

BSL was also not a full time business. Biggs Switchgear Limited gives you an idea of the day job. Ron Coleman was just fulfilling a need for easy to build, more scale coaches.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[The Great Bear]

With the new Hornby Colletts I have a glut of old/Railroad 57' Bow Ended coaches. What would be good projects as an initial stab at coach conversion, adding Comet sides.

 

Appreciate this is discussed a fair bit in the thread above, but it's a few years old and my knowledge of GWR coaches is limited - I have the Russell book and but haven't learnt it off by heart:) and have the Harris book (is it better?) coming.  My initial impression is the new Hornby models cover a lot of the bases so what's left that can easily be done?

 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions

 

Jon 

[M.I.B]

Jon,

 

This is the method I used when selecting what to "side":

 

Look at Mis Prism's excellent GWR modelling site, or a coaching book ( many available) and list full size coaches by length.  IIRC you should be looking at 57'  for Collets.

 

 

Then go to the main "players" websites and see what kits are available as "sides only".  I approached one manufacturer who did  not list "sides only" and he agreed to supply just the sides.  I am sure that I searched Comet, Frogmore, Dart Valley and what used to be 24/7.  Someone may be able to add if anything new has come on the market in the last 2 years.

 

Enjoy.   I still have a few to "rescue" because I stupidly used Araldite to glue the sides on - and they immediately warped off on some.  Some stuck, but I feel they are a bit of a time bomb - I painted them and glazed them anyway.  Evostick from now on.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Jon,

 

This is the method I used when selecting what to "side":

 

Look at Mis Prism's excellent GWR modelling site, or a coaching book ( many available) and list full size coaches by length.  IIRC you should be looking at 57'  for Collets.

 

 

Then go to the main "players" websites and see what kits are available as "sides only".  I approached one manufacturer who did  not list "sides only" and he agreed to supply just the sides.  I am sure that I searched Comet, Frogmore, Dart Valley and what used to be 24/7.  Someone may be able to add if anything new has come on the market in the last 2 years.

 

Enjoy.   I still have a few to "rescue" because I stupidly used Araldite to glue the sides on - and they immediately warped off on some.  Some stuck, but I feel they are a bit of a time bomb - I painted them and glazed them anyway.  Evostick from now on.

I believe the carriage etches (with the exception of one LNER diagram) formerly available from 247 Developments are not now supplied by them. They are the property AFAIK of a third party who sold them through 247 when Gary Wells ran the business, but the current owner hasn't been given the opportunity.

[hayfield]

 I know someone who used GEM flexi bogies (who remembers them). It was a time when complete kits were not in favour (think K's) as there was so much choice.

BSL was also not a full time business. Biggs Switchgear Limited gives you an idea of the day job. Ron Coleman was just fulfilling a need for easy to build, more scale coaches.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

I still have a few of the GEM Equisprung bogies, they do come up on eBay now and then, as do K's as these were sold in bulk in shops in the 70's

 

I have shoe box full of whitemetal and older hard metal bogie kit and castings, which I must sort and thin out in the future

[88D]

Jon,

 

This is the method I used when selecting what to "side":

 

Look at Mis Prism's excellent GWR modelling site, or a coaching book ( many available) and list full size coaches by length.  IIRC you should be looking at 57'  for Collets.

 

 

Then go to the main "players" websites and see what kits are available as "sides only".  I approached one manufacturer who did  not list "sides only" and he agreed to supply just the sides.  I am sure that I searched Comet, Frogmore, Dart Valley and what used to be 24/7.  Someone may be able to add if anything new has come on the market in the last 2 years.

 

Enjoy.   I still have a few to "rescue" because I stupidly used Araldite to glue the sides on - and they immediately warped off on some.  Some stuck, but I feel they are a bit of a time bomb - I painted them and glazed them anyway.  Evostick from now on.

What is Miss Prism’s GWR website please?

[County of Yorkshire]

With the new Hornby Colletts I have a glut of old/Railroad 57' Bow Ended coaches. What would be good projects as an initial stab at coach conversion, adding Comet sides.

 

Appreciate this is discussed a fair bit in the thread above, but it's a few years old and my knowledge of GWR coaches is limited - I have the Russell book and but haven't learnt it off by heart:) and have the Harris book (is it better?) coming.  My initial impression is the new Hornby models cover a lot of the bases so what's left that can easily be done?

 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions

 

Jon 

 

You could create the following diagrams from using the following coach sides on the old Hornby Colletts (Diagrams in bold are covered by new Hornby releases):

 

C54 TK (Comet)

D94  BTK (Phoenix/BSL - No longer available but pop up at swapmeets and on ebay)

D95 BTK (Comet - right hand only)

E127 CK (Comet - right hand only)

E128 BCK (Comet)

K38 BG (Comet)

H33 RC (Comet)

 

All share the same body length and bogies - under-frame details, coach end detail (emergency gear) and roof detail will need altering to suit however. 

 

The E128 BCK would be the most useful for general service, and in fact I am currently prepping a pair of Comet sides of these to overlay onto a (new!) blood and custard Hornby D95 picked up for a silly cheap price at a swapmeet. Surprised Hornby didn't offer a BCK in its range of Colletts to be honest, as the Maunsell, Gresley and Hawksworth ranges all have one. 

 

Cheers, 

 

CoY

[chrisf]

If adding etched sides to a plastic body, it is a good idea to abrade the plastic side so that the finished coach is not too tubby.

 

The roof profile of the Railroad coaches is like nothing on earth.  I tried correcting it with a surform blade but had to admit defeat.  I am sure more learned members will have better ideas!

 

Chris

[M.I.B]

In my "successful" RTR + brass side efforts, the less of the plastic side left, the better it has stayed on.  

 

When I do  get around to revisiting my failed items, I think I may take the complete side off and attach differently:

 

The brass side would be attached at the ends, and a drop of adhesive on the lower and upper edges to stop flex.  The gaps I would then later fill from behind with Miliput.

 

This serves a few purposes:

 

a.  Stops the sides from getting to chubby (see Chris' post above).

b.  Stops them from splitting away from the sides as they did in the past for me.

c.  It's less messy!

 

I say this with experience - when I did the first 7 or so, I did not realise exactly how strong a carriage is even with the sides hacked out.  I feel that whether it be a body which is the Triang style of  "floor, sides and end" or the Hornby /Mainline/Bachmann/Airfix  style of "roof, sides and end" there is no need to Araldite the brass side onto a milled down plastic side.

[Coach bogie]

Alternative to using the Hornby Railroads, there are many sides that can be used with the Bachmann Colletts which are just as economical as Railroads these days., This one is an E148. I took the ends off then shorted each end to match the shorter e148 sides. Cut a section out of the underframes and here is where I am up to.

 

The E153 does not require the donor body to be reduced

 

The Bill Bedford GWR Excursion sides (previously sold by 247 Developments) also are a straight fit onto the Bachmanns

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

[The Great Bear]

What is Miss Prism’s GWR website please?

 

GWR modelling website http://www.gwr.org.uk/kits4coacha.html is the page MIB is referring to.

[The Great Bear]

You could create the following diagrams from using the following coach sides on the old Hornby Colletts (Diagrams in bold are covered by new Hornby releases):

 

C54 TK (Comet)

D94  BTK (Phoenix/BSL - No longer available but pop up at swapmeets and on ebay)

D95 BTK (Comet - right hand only)

E127 CK (Comet - right hand only)

E128 BCK (Comet)

K38 BG (Comet)

H33 RC (Comet)

 

All share the same body length and bogies - under-frame details, coach end detail (emergency gear) and roof detail will need altering to suit however. 

 

The E128 BCK would be the most useful for general service, and in fact I am currently prepping a pair of Comet sides of these to overlay onto a (new!) blood and custard Hornby D95 picked up for a silly cheap price at a swapmeet. Surprised Hornby didn't offer a BCK in its range of Colletts to be honest, as the Maunsell, Gresley and Hawksworth ranges all have one. 

 

Cheers, 

 

CoY

 

Thank you CoY. The E127 seems a good one as you say. Am I right in thinking the couple of other 57' designs Comet lists eg K42 and C67 could be done, but with new ends?

[The Great Bear]

Alternative to using the Hornby Railroads, there are many sides that can be used with the Bachmann Colletts which are just as economical as Railroads these days., This one is an E148. I took the ends off then shorted each end to match the shorter e148 sides. Cut a section out of the underframes and here is where I am up to.

e148.jpg

 

The E153 does not require the donor body to be reduced

IMG_3708.JPG

 

The Bill Bedford GWR Excursion sides (previously sold by 247 Developments) also are a straight fit onto the Bachmanns

IMG_4926.JPG

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Thank you, Mike. I do have some Sunshine coaches already, too many probably - as new stock would they have been used on premier trains which doesn't really apply I think to the Banbury-Oxford line?  I was a bit confused looking with the difference between 61' and 60' prototypes and whether it would matter in any conversion. 

 

In addition I'm going to try adding sides, starting with some from Worsley Works, to some PC models toplights.

 

In a tidy up of the shed I did also find an unopened parcel containing a 70' BSL kit I bought from Ebay - off you, Mike, I think.

 

Thanks again, Jon.

[The Great Bear]

In my "successful" RTR + brass side efforts, the less of the plastic side left, the better it has stayed on.  

 

When I do  get around to revisiting my failed items, I think I may take the complete side off and attach differently:

 

The brass side would be attached at the ends, and a drop of adhesive on the lower and upper edges to stop flex.  The gaps I would then later fill from behind with Miliput.

 

This serves a few purposes:

 

a.  Stops the sides from getting to chubby (see Chris' post above).

b.  Stops them from splitting away from the sides as they did in the past for me.

c.  It's less messy!

 

I say this with experience - when I did the first 7 or so, I did not realise exactly how strong a carriage is even with the sides hacked out.  I feel that whether it be a body which is the Triang style of  "floor, sides and end" or the Hornby /Mainline/Bachmann/Airfix  style of "roof, sides and end" there is no need to Araldite the brass side onto a milled down plastic side.

 

Thank you. I recall seeing your conversions when going back through your projects. I will bear in mind your advice, in particular regarding the glue to use.

 

All the best

 

Jon

[88D]

GWR modelling website http://www.gwr.org.uk/kits4coacha.html is the page MIB is referring to.

Many thanks. Miss Prism put me right as well!

[County of Yorkshire]

Thank you CoY. The E127 seems a good one as you say. Am I right in thinking the couple of other 57' designs Comet lists eg K42 and C67 could be done, but with new ends?

 

Do you mean an E128 Jon? BCK's are great vehicles because they constitute the full facilities of standard train in once coach; first class accommodation, third class accommodation and the guards van! As such they were a common choice for branch portions of passing expresses. 

 

K42's and C67 were flat-ended, and so in addition to the end - as you say - you would also need to alter the roof (difficult) and floor (bit easier) profiles. Don't forget you can use the Airfix/Dapol/Hornby B-set coaches as a basis for any of the bow-ended 60ft stock:

 

- C60/62

- H38

- K40 

- all 1929 Riviera Stock Diagrams (Phoenix/BSL and no longer available)

 

I do like coach bogie's E148 overlay project using a Bachmann sunshine coach. I didn't think of that given the length discrepancies (57ft prototype versus a 61ft one) but I suppose you must develop the confidence to trim a scale 4ft from the RTR coach sides, roof and floor.

 

The biggest gap in GWR coach kits/sides is toplights. Worsley works do a handful of diagrams, and Frogmore do a handful (though the D56 BTK's are allegedly incorrect), but the Slaters toplights have vanished from this earth into the illicit maw of Coopercraft and the Haye Developments range has disappeared and not resurfaced. David Geen is probably the last source of a substantial range of toplight kits, but he is retiring in the Spring of 2018 and so you'd better get what you need whilst you can!

 

CoY

[Coach bogie]

Haye Developments range has disappeared and not resurfaced. David Geen is probably the last source of a substantial range of toplight kits, but he is retiring in the Spring of 2018 and so you'd better get what you need whilst you can!

 

CoY

 

He has not retired yet. David has just run off one from each of the Hayes range (he has taken them over) and  they should be available soon, once they have been checked out. The intention is to release them as etches only, with castings from the Geen range made available to complete as a separate package, as many like to source their own parts these days. The only one that will not return is the F13 slip as this is already in Davids range and there is no point being in competition with yourself.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[kandc_au]

 

[OnTheBranchline]

Do you mean an E128 Jon? BCK's are great vehicles because they constitute the full facilities of standard train in once coach; first class accommodation, third class accommodation and the guards van! As such they were a common choice for branch portions of passing expresses. 

 

K42's and C67 were flat-ended, and so in addition to the end - as you say - you would also need to alter the roof (difficult) and floor (bit easier) profiles. Don't forget you can use the Airfix/Dapol/Hornby B-set coaches as a basis for any of the bow-ended 60ft stock:

 

- C60/62

- H38

- K40 

- all 1929 Riviera Stock Diagrams (Phoenix/BSL and no longer available)

 

I do like coach bogie's E148 overlay project using a Bachmann sunshine coach. I didn't think of that given the length discrepancies (57ft prototype versus a 61ft one) but I suppose you must develop the confidence to trim a scale 4ft from the RTR coach sides, roof and floor.

 

The biggest gap in GWR coach kits/sides is toplights. Worsley works do a handful of diagrams, and Frogmore do a handful (though the D56 BTK's are allegedly incorrect), but the Slaters toplights have vanished from this earth into the illicit maw of Coopercraft and the Haye Developments range has disappeared and not resurfaced. David Geen is probably the last source of a substantial range of toplight kits, but he is retiring in the Spring of 2018 and so you'd better get what you need whilst you can!

 

CoY

 

Such a shame that the Southern Railway Group pack up their molds and do nothing with them.