Ghosts in the Machine.

[roythebus]

On 03/07/2019 at 05:21, rockershovel said:

 

The warren under Waterloo was an amazing place. During the early 90s I was scratching along doing what’s now euphemised as “a portfolio of contract work” and I did some settlement monitoring in the Waterloo and City Line. There was, and probsbly still is, an astonishing patchwork of ad-hoc repair work dating from the Blitz and still in situ due to the cost and complexity of doing anything about it. 

I've just picked up on this thread again, when I was a driver at Waterloo we had to use the uniform arch quite a bit. Near that was the plans arch, a treausre trove of old drawings, digrams, photos, you name it. Beyond that were arches full of old office equipment, some of which was "rescued from the skip" or further use in my loft layout at home.

 

But more interesting was the remnants of a narrow gauge railway system in the arches. This started in the plans arch, went through the furniture store and through locked gates into the bowels of the station. I doubt if it had any locos, but seemed to be about 15" gauge.

 

I've read that during WW2 the station suffered several heavy bomb attacks and the fires in the arches burned for months, mainly because of the number of bonded warehouses in there! The main cable routes under the station were wiped out during a couple of raids, but with the usual wartime efficiency were replaced and working again in a relatively short space of time. 

[roythebus]

On 04/01/2020 at 00:04, John M Upton said:

The bardic I was originallly issued with was fixed to only display red, white and green, however the fourth quarter of the lens, the yellow one was still there and if I recall correctly the removal of a restraing screw enabled the yellow to be displayed.

LT Bardics could only display red green and white.

 

[73c]

11 minutes ago, roythebus said:

I've just picked up on this thread again, when I was a driver at Waterloo we had to use the uniform arch quite a bit. Near that was the plans arch, a treausre trove of old drawings, digrams, photos, you name it. Beyond that were arches full of old office equipment, some of which was "rescued from the skip" or further use in my loft layout at home.

 

But more interesting was the remnants of a narrow gauge railway system in the arches. This started in the plans arch, went through the furniture store and through locked gates into the bowels of the station. I doubt if it had any locos, but seemed to be about 15" gauge.

 

I've read that during WW2 the station suffered several heavy bomb attacks and the fires in the arches burned for months, mainly because of the number of bonded warehouses in there! The main cable routes under the station were wiped out during a couple of raids, but with the usual wartime efficiency were replaced and working again in a relatively short space of time. 

Remember that part of the station well. Opposite the plans arch was the lamp arch, usually with 2 or 3 Brutes outside full of tail lamps. Looking left from the plans arch was about half way down the lift shaft of the Waterloo & City line, used for moving the stock in and out, quite a dark area. Close by was the Dead arch, used during WW1 for the returning bodies of soldiers. All of that was below the Windsor lines.

[rockershovel]

I don’t remember Waterloo in any detail, I did a number of such jobs around that time. I do remember the site offices being in a complex of arches under the station, though. 

 

One rather foul place I remember from that period, was the old carriage siding at Angel Station. It was a redundant siding dating from the original terminus / Upper Street Extension era, outside the running tunnels and containing a maintenance pit. It had a walk-through connection to the running tunnels. Over the decades this had filled with water and the rotted remnants of litter from the tunnels, covered by the original boards. This was drained and removed as part of the reconstruction work - vile! 

[Ben B]

Quote

I don’t remember Waterloo in any detail, I did a number of such jobs around that time. I do remember the site offices being in a complex of arches under the station, though.

 

Whilst a student I worked briefly in the refreshment rooms at Carlisle Citadel (alright, I know it's technically only 'Carlisle', but as a railway enthusiast even in 2004 I liked to call it Citadel, to the confusion of my colleagues).  There was a 'mystery door' at the back of the store room we used, and I was told it led to a warren of tunnels under the station.  A fellow student on the Uni course tried to find out more information, and get permission to go down to visit them but was outright refused by the station manager and the BTP on 'security and safety grounds'.

[Ben B]

14 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

This 18inch gauge railway has always intrigued me - mainly because it's  survived.

 

It;s the gasworks railway at Berkhamstead. It ran until 1955 (one local source says 1958)  when the gasworks stopped production and became just a gas storage facility. Thehalf mile or so lie ran from the bottom of the embankment below a siding extended from the LNWR  goods yard (now the station car park needess to say) from where coal was dropped into small four wheel  wagons,  It then turned under  the WCML through a tunnel to the north of the station before running between the Grand Union Canal and the railway boundary (now a standard steel fence) to the town's gasworks. There's no trace that I can see between the station and the far end of the tunnel though that area is now housing so someone's back garden may have a curious "feature".   The tunnel itself is firmly gated shut but the track through the tunnel and as far as the site boundary of the gasworks - now redeveloped as an industrial estate- appears to be completely intact though very overgrown. I took these pictures in winter 2008 when the track was less overgrown but AFAIK it's all still there .

The railway was horse drawn and from contemporary photos it doesn't look as if it would have carried any reverse loads of coke or tar

 

More about it here

  https://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/24/Berkhamstead.htm

 

 

 

 

What a fascinating survivor!  You know when you just see something and want to model it?  I love that track going through the archway.  Hell, I'd love to be the homeowner and find a length of railway line running through the garden, would make a nice feature

[DIRTY DIESEL]

The two buckets that we have in our box (Llandudno Junction) both have the BR emblem embossed on the rim. 
We also have the Ambulance Book that dates back to the the early 50s in the first aid box, its an interesting read to see the old names and what cuts & bruises they reported. It’s said that your not a Signalman/Signaller (in the Junction) unless your names in the book.... 

Edited July 17, 2020 by DIRTY DIESEL

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Ben B said:

..... Hell, I'd love to be the homeowner and find a length of railway line running through the garden, would make a nice feature

Just a long enough section to display a replica wagon and horse to confuse the neigh-bours !

[Wickham Green too]

Anyone remember the warren of tunnels under Brighton Station ..

 

 

... open for tours during the 150th anniversary weekend, September 1991. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Wickham Green too

[PhilJ W]

I hope they didn't try to drive that double deck bus through there.

[Pacific231G]

3 hours ago, Ben B said:

 

What a fascinating survivor!  You know when you just see something and want to model it?  I love that track going through the archway.  Hell, I'd love to be the homeowner and find a length of railway line running through the garden, would make a nice feature

Though most accounts say that the line was always horse drawn (by one horse I think) one does say that it had a Lister diesel in its latter days so it would make a nice add-on feature to a station. Looking at old 25" OS maps (National Library of Scotland) you often see short tramways connecting things like brickwork with main lines- there were a couple on the GWML near Hayes, 

I've also seen maps and photos of a few local goods yards in France with what looks like a 40cm (~16") line leading off to some neighboring works.  That was one of the standard gauges offered in Decauville's catalogue and wagons/trolleys would have been hand propelled.

 

I can aso remember seeing inset narrow gauge rails (prob 16" or 18")  poking out of doorways under the arches near Waterloo and always assumed that they were for trolleys to take heavy items in and out of various workshops etc. they don't appear on the OS 25 inch maps of the area as they were under the arches but there is a good example in this 1914 OS map of the area between Waterloo and the River  in the yard immediately south of "India Stores Depot" looking at how small the radii are this must have been a trolley route. There's another with  wagon turntable in the L.C.C. Tramways Offices which is notably unconnected to any L.C.C. tramways! Both also have an isolated length of rail running along their quays that I assume were for small mobile cranes.

25" OS map Creative Commons for non-commercial use CC BY-NC-SA 4.0

 

 

  The big used car supermarket the opposite side of the Grand Union Canal from Old Oak Common (it has had various names) occupied a number of formerly industrial buildings and in one of them there are (or were last time I bought a car there) rails of that sort of gauge inset into the floor. I think it was some kind of foundry or metal bashing works and again hand pushed trolleys would have been used to move heavy castings around.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

6 hours ago, Ben B said:

 

What a fascinating survivor!  You know when you just see something and want to model it?  I love that track going through the archway.  Hell, I'd love to be the homeowner and find a length of railway line running through the garden, would make a nice feature

I've just being doing a little delving on the National Library of Scotland OS map site and, though most sources say the Berkhamstead gasworks tramway was about half a mile long, it was actually rather shorter.

This is the 1938 survey when it was at its fullest extent (with scale added) and, even if the track to the left of the (retort?) building it entered  was part of it (it may have been a separate track for push trolleys for other purposes) it wasn't longer than about 450yds.

From the foot tunnel to the buffers on the up side of the WCML the loading area was only about 60yards (180ft) long. The SG siding from where coal was unloaded was an exension of the goods yard head shunt and was extended when the tramway was built. 

 

In this earlier map from the 1920s the tramway is simpler and a bit shorter,not more than 400yds. There is no loader shown on this maps so whether the tramway had just been built when it was surveyed or the line about half way along the loop indicates a simple chute to transfer coal from SG wagons to the tramway is anyone's guess. 

(Both maps are Creative Commons Non Commercial Use SA40) 

 

Unfortunately the two footpaths that conveged on the foot tunnel, it was there before the tramway, disappeared when houses were built on the fields north of the WCML otherwise we'd be able to explore the tunnel as well. The second foot tunnel at the extreme right of the earlier map is still open.

It's difficult to make much out in Google Earth given the amount of vegetation but it looks like the back gardens that back onto the north side of the railway embankment  do extend to the foot of the embankment so, unfortunately, it's likely that anything else remaining of the tramway on the north side of the WCML was wiped out when the houses were built.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Pacific231G

[Wickham Green too]

10 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

I hope they didn't try to drive that double deck bus through there.

I DID consider putting that shot on the Bridge Bashing Thread ............... actually, wouldn't have done as much damage as you'd have thought : https://www.google.com/search?q=double+deck+bus+tube+train+supercar&rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB775GB775&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=KyOANDwfSyrdIM%2Cci9SwIi8vywWfM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kTteOJYCPng-Kq-__sumLVLbBUvpQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwisi8jhktXqAhUZiFwKHYFFA8oQ9QEwAHoECAYQBQ&biw=1280&bih=913#imgrc=KyOANDwfSyrdIM 

 

[roythebus]

Talking about hidden narrow gauge, there's one on the Thames that connects the old Harrods warehouse with the riverside. On the south towpath between Putney and Hammersmith, hearer to Hammersmith, there's a quay where barges could tie up. there's a maybe 15" gauge railway that goes along the quay with another line that goes across the towpath into the Harrods warehouse. I've know of the line for about 55 years and never seen any sign of it being used.

[melmerby]

18 hours ago, roythebus said:

Talking about hidden narrow gauge, there's one on the Thames that connects the old Harrods warehouse with the riverside. On the south towpath between Putney and Hammersmith, hearer to Hammersmith, there's a quay where barges could tie up. there's a maybe 15" gauge railway that goes along the quay with another line that goes across the towpath into the Harrods warehouse. I've know of the line for about 55 years and never seen any sign of it being used.

The Harrods Warehouse is itself a ghost as only the frontage exists:

https://goo.gl/maps/WwLU4UeRwT36XEzSA

 

25" map:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/103313351

Edited July 22, 2020 by melmerby

[great central]

18 hours ago, roythebus said:

Talking about hidden narrow gauge, there's one on the Thames that connects the old Harrods warehouse with the riverside. On the south towpath between Putney and Hammersmith, hearer to Hammersmith, there's a quay where barges could tie up. there's a maybe 15" gauge railway that goes along the quay with another line that goes across the towpath into the Harrods warehouse. I've know of the line for about 55 years and never seen any sign of it being used.

 

Also some inset rails to be seen in the dip between the embankments at Sheet Stores junction near Long Eaton.

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

The Harrods Warehouse is itself a ghost as only the frontage exists:

https://goo.gl/maps/WwLU4UeRwT36XEzSA

 

25" map:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/103313351

There used to be football pitches there. Played on them when at school in London in the late 1960s.

[roythebus]

Yes, that was Barn Elms playing grounds, formerly owned by the LCC I think. My mum's old house is only about 400 yards from that frontage, but the other side of the river in Delorme Street, just off Fulham Palace Road. I lived round that area from 1961 to 1973 and again from 177-79. Mum moved out of there about 3 years ago and went into a care home.

 

There's a lot of railway and tramway interest on that particular map, especially the layout of Hammersmith Station with the GNP&B tube recently extended to there, the Grove Road line being recently closed ( on the next sheet) and the Midland Railway coal depot and of course Lillie Bridge Depot!

 

I've always wondered what the layout of the Harrods line was, now I know!

[4630]

This 'Ghosts in the Machine' probably also comes under the category of long forgotten infrastructure.

 

These two images relate to the former Kirkburton branch of the London & North Western Railway, which branched off the route between Huddersfield and Heaton Lodge Junction at Kirkburton Junction located at Deighton.

 

The line, which was originally intended as a through route to Barnsley but was never fully completed, opened to Kirkburton on 7th October 1867.

 

The line closed to passengers on 26th July 1930 and to freight on 5th April 1965, with the track lifted the following year, except for one mile which was retained as a rail connection from Kirkburton Junction to the nearby ICI works.   This remaining section was closed in February 1971.

 

This image shows the Whitacre Street overbridge which crosses the main Trans Pennine route from Leeds to Manchester, with the adjacent smaller overbridge on the right identifying the route of the Kirkburton branch...

 

 

...and here in close up.

 

The images were taken from the platform of the current Deighton station.

 

Further information about the branch, for those who may be interested, is available here which is part of the excellent Lost Railways of West Yorkshire website.

 

 

[LNERGE]

I'm not entirely sure how much of this is Ouse box c1897 - 1925. I think the locking room was converted into a permanent way hut. An incredible survivor.

Edited August 4, 2020 by LNERGE

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, 4630 said:

This 'Ghosts in the Machine' probably also comes under the category of long forgotten infrastructure.

 

These two images relate to the former Kirkburton branch of the London & North Western Railway, which branched off the route between Huddersfield and Heaton Lodge Junction at Kirkburton Junction located at Deighton.

 

The line, which was originally intended as a through route to Barnsley but was never fully completed, opened to Kirkburton on 7th October 1867.

 

The line closed to passengers on 26th July 1930 and to freight on 5th April 1965, with the track lifted the following year, except for one mile which was retained as a rail connection from Kirkburton Junction to the nearby ICI works.   This remaining section was closed in February 1971.

 

This image shows the Whitacre Street overbridge which crosses the main Trans Pennine route from Leeds to Manchester, with the adjacent smaller overbridge on the right identifying the route of the Kirkburton branch...

 

 

...and here in close up.

 

The images were taken from the platform of the current Deighton station.

 

Further information about the branch, for those who may be interested, is available here which is part of the excellent Lost Railways of West Yorkshire website.

 

 

Following on from those how about this footbridge over a railway, except there isn't a railway anymore.

View from the Dalton Bank Road bridge over the trackbed of the Kirkburton branch

(I assume the footbridge is something to do with the chemical works branch?)

https://goo.gl/maps/MCZP7gs9LSP9GgLW8

Edited August 4, 2020 by melmerby

[62613]

20 hours ago, 4630 said:

This 'Ghosts in the Machine' probably also comes under the category of long forgotten infrastructure.

 

These two images relate to the former Kirkburton branch of the London & North Western Railway, which branched off the route between Huddersfield and Heaton Lodge Junction at Kirkburton Junction located at Deighton.

 

The line, which was originally intended as a through route to Barnsley but was never fully completed, opened to Kirkburton on 7th October 1867.

 

The line closed to passengers on 26th July 1930 and to freight on 5th April 1965, with the track lifted the following year, except for one mile which was retained as a rail connection from Kirkburton Junction to the nearby ICI works.   This remaining section was closed in February 1971.

 

This image shows the Whitacre Street overbridge which crosses the main Trans Pennine route from Leeds to Manchester, with the adjacent smaller overbridge on the right identifying the route of the Kirkburton branch...

 

 

...and here in close up.

 

The images were taken from the platform of the current Deighton station.

 

Further information about the branch, for those who may be interested, is available here which is part of the excellent Lost Railways of West Yorkshire website.

 

 

I'm pretty sure there was a derelict signalbox in that area until at least the late 1980s; labelled "Holliday's Sidings", so serving the other chemical works that was there (not ICI/Astra Zeneca/ Syngenta)

[4630]

17 minutes ago, 62613 said:

I'm pretty sure there was a derelict signalbox in that area until at least the late 1980s; labelled "Holliday's Sidings", so serving the other chemical works that was there (not ICI/Astra Zeneca/ Syngenta)

 

Quite possibly so.

 

The signal box at Hollidays Sidings closed on 4th October 1971, together with the adjacent boxes at Bradley Junction and the subject of my photos Kirkburton Junction, the 'box for which was sited approximately at the Huddersfield end of platform 2 of the current Deighton station.  That station is not, of course, the original having been opened as recently as 26th April 1982. 

[Metr0Land]

Here in west Wales we still have plenty of pill boxes and tank traps scattered around, however it's tricky trying to find ones to incorporate in railway pictures.  One place where this is possible is alongside Kidwelly aerodrome.  66197 and 66018 work 6W70 Westbury-Whitland 25Apr17

[mozzer models]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127282573@N03/50191344208/in/datetaken/