Rabs Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Hello, Sorry if these questions have been asked before but my searches didn't throw anything up. I'm building my first layout (http://www.rmweb.co....og/783-burwood/). I have got to the point of designing the wiring and have a few questions for the operating sages so that I make sure that I put everything in the right place. The layout plan is as follows, modelling a 1947 GWR branch: As I hope is clear, the branch comes into the station from the left. The platform and run around loop are at the bottom and two sidings at the top. There may or may not be a loading platform on the upper siding. 1 - Signalling: The station is intended to be an end of branch terminus. It will be operated as 'one engine in steam'. Can anyone guide me in the placement and types of signals, or recommend a reference book that could help me? 2 - Goods shunting manoeuvres - which I need to decide now to get the block detection and uncoupling magnet locations correct. My best guess is that shunting would be done as follows: Train arrives with loco hauling wagons into the upper loop of the run around. I assume the upper track of the loop so that goods aren't left adjacent to the platform. Loco runs around and then shunts wagons into the sidings as appropriate Loco reconstitutes train and couples to the left hand end, to haul the train away Is this prototypical? Are there other actions which my design should be capable of. 3 - Facilites: If we assume that this station is relatively remote from the town at the other end of the branch, would it be prototypical for this station to have coal and watering facilities? Thanks in advance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 This looks incredibly like Blagdon - see http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/stat_2.htm#blagd and scroll down and click for a track plan. OK the station building was on the other side of the line, There's pix of a model of it here - http://www.gwr.org.uk/layoutsblagdon1.html However this was the end of the Wrington Vale LIght Railway, operated one engine in steam, so no need for complex signalling. There was a ground frame, however. Signals? One home and one starter without making it look over complex. You'd need to invent a reason why there should be more. The box would have about half a dozen levers. Whether that would constitute a box? Facilities: Hemyock didn't have a shed after the 1920s, but retained its water tower to the end. But think it lost it's coal when it lost the shed.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 Well, that's handy! It also confirms that I've arrived at a suitably prototypical track configuration. Thanks very much. It looks as though I may need to add a catch point on the run around - as I also have an incline up to the station. Do you know why Blagdon didn't have a catch point on the sidings - are they not the bigger risk than the loop which did have one? Also, excuse my ignorance as my knowledge is clearly lacking, I thought that Home and Starter signals were one and the same? Would I be right to place a home signal at the throat of the station, and a distant some way down the line (both facing away from the station)? Is the additional starter signal facing into the station to control trains wanting to depart? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 It looks like our resident signalling experts are otherwise engaged. I'm sure they'll be along soon but, in the meantime, you might want to take a look at this thread, GWR Signals and where they go. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 14, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2012 It looks like our resident signalling experts are otherwise engaged. I'm sure they'll be along soon but, in the meantime, you might want to take a look at this thread, GWR Signals and where they go. Nick Out to lunch (and very nice it was too - Cumberland Sausages and bubble & squeak with red onion gravy ). In the meanwhile you will, I hope, have had a look at the link and have picked up a few ideas about signals. But first to the background story and track layout - I note it is GWR 1947 and my comments assume that it is a line the GWR either built or took over at an early date. You could run it with no signals at all but for your scenario that would be fairly unusual, the GWR normally liked to at least provide minimal signalling on 'One Engine In Steam' (OES) worked lines. But before we get to that we ideally need to make a few changes to the track layout as it is arranged in a rather expensive way (for the real thing) and the run-round loop needs to join the yard sidings neck before the latter joins the running line. This has two benefits - firstly it saves a trap point (otherwise both lines would have to be trapped) and secondly it creates a longer run-round loop which thus increases train handling capacity). Incidentally Blagdon is not an ideal comparison as it was on a Light railway and ran under the authority of a Light Railway Order with all the relaxations such an Order offered - very few GWR branches were Light Railways. You can then make a few decisions - usually the GW would have provided a Home Signal (almost invariably located at the toe of the first facing point reached by an incoming train) and a Starting Signal for the platform line ( at the end of the platform but clear of the fouling point(s) where the connection(s) from the yard/run round join the running line/platform line. There might be a ground shunting signal controlling the exit from the yard but it's quite likely there would not be one reading in the opposite direction from the running line - this is very much 'it depends when the signalling was installed' item and it can help to set time/period if used carefully. The point to access the run round at the terminal end of the platform line would be worked by either a local ground frame (and would have no signals) or might be worked from the main lever frame in which case it might have one of the old rotating type signals or an independent disc signal. The levers working all this lot would almost invariably be in a small hut rather than a proper signalbox structure although the latter might be the case if, say, the working system had been simplified at some (but unlikely). The freight train would usually run to the platform line - this was quicker than stopping and waiting for the points to be changed in order to access the run-round loop and the platform line would hold a longer train. The station probably would have a water tower and a water crane - the tower might feed the whole station as well as loco use but a water crane would be needed to top-up engines. I hope that helps and it should get you to the next lot of questions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 Hi Mike, Thanks very much for your input. So to check that I've understood you correctly. If I wanted to add signals to the current track plan they could reasonably be: (Perhaps with the start point being a bit further from the points) In which case I would need catch points both near the station entrance ground frame to protect from wagons from the sidings and also just to the right of where the loop diverges from the platform line. However, if I'm able to move tracks then a plan like this would be better (just in rough for now): Which just requires a catch point in front of the lever frame. In this case would the shunting signal also be at this location (toe of the point selecting yard/loop), or would it be at the toe of the point which selects the sidings? Also, this plan doesn't show my whole layout - would it be appropriate to have a distant signal further away on the approach to the station? If so how far would this typically be down the line - is it calculated from the length of the train and/or stopping distance? Thanks again, Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 15, 2012 Hi Mike, owever, if I'm able to move tracks then a plan like this would be better (just in rough for now): Which just requires a catch point in front of the lever frame. In this case would the shunting signal also be at this location (toe of the point selecting yard/loop), or would it be at the toe of the point which selects the sidings? Also, this plan doesn't show my whole layout - would it be appropriate to have a distant signal further away on the approach to the station? If so how far would this typically be down the line - is it calculated from the length of the train and/or stopping distance? Thanks again, Robert That is definitely the better layout Robert (reasons outlined previously) and it also puts the Starting Signal in correct position in relation to the points. If there was a signal reading out of the yard it would be at the toe of the trap point but as you have the ground frame right next to those points it's not likely that there would be a ground signal. Incidentally the other ground frame would be out in the open - no cover over it at all and in that period would only have had a single (painted black) lever. The GWR had set distances (in rear of the Home Signal) for placing Distant Signals but these do seem to have been 'varied' in very low speed situations such as would be likely at your station. Officially we are looking at a distance of about 800 yards but 600 might be possible but even then you are out of the layout room I suspect - unless you have suitable scenic breaks to 'hide' the distance? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 Apologies for the double post - but here is a better picture incorporating your previous comments: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 15, 2012 Apologies for the double post - but here is a better picture incorporating your previous comments: See comment above re the shunt disc - otherwise big green tick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 Ok, fantastic - and one less mechanism to worry about. I've only got about another 60cm of track before it disappears off board - so you're right, not enough to get the distant signal in either. Thanks very much. Do you know of any resources which describe typical shunting operations? This is so that I can make sure that my sensors, blocks and uncouplers are located correctly to enable them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 15, 2012 Do you know of any resources which describe typical shunting operations? Well there's me (but I'm off shopping in a few minutes so you'll have to come back later with your questions - perhaps using a slightly different heading or changing the present one a little?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 If you're happy for that that would be great - I've put my best guess in my layout blog: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/783/entry-8394-burwood-operations/ as it was a bit big for a forum post. It feels like this probably all well trodden ground so it would probably save you time if there's a book or website which you can point me to which covers the basics, rather than me pestering you with really rookie questions. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 15, 2012 If you're happy for that that would be great - I've put my best guess in my layout blog: http://www.rmweb.co....ood-operations/ as it was a bit big for a forum post. It feels like this probably all well trodden ground so it would probably save you time if there's a book or website which you can point me to which covers the basics, rather than me pestering you with really rookie questions. Cheers Rookie questions are no bother - in fact very useful as other folk can look in and learn as well in my view. So I'll have a look at your blog to get the gist of things and later on (which might be 24 hours later alas) I'll be back here to give you some ideas - hopefully. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Try this for operations - http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/index.htm#fops Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Bear Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Hello. It'll be good to see another GWR BLT and watch it develop. They seem to be coming back into fashion! I've left my thoughts on operation in your blog, but I'm no expert not having seen any of this first hand! Good luck with it! Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 15, 2012 Robert I think the little sketches in your blog represent a quite reasonable way of shunting the trains with one exception - at a small station, indeed at most stations you would be very unlikely to find a siding dedicated to outwards wagons and another for inwards wagons, the siding space would be segregated by usage with part for, say, coal and another for full loads and so on. This - in reality - posed some shunting complications as S*d's 1st Law of shunting a goods yard said that any outbound empty coal wagons would almost inevitably be blocked in by loaded wagons/wagons under discharge and these would have to be shunted aside. The same could happen with full loads goods wagons although it was less likely with stuff working through goods sheds as wagons which came in loaded were emptied and reloaded ready for departure. Usually the incoming trains would be formed in the best way to facilitate shunting at the terminus but equally their marshalling would reflect which sidings (and traffics) they had had to deal with on their working towards the terminus and, sometimes to a lesser extent, where and what they might have to shunt on their way back up the branch. For example on my local line coal (and not much else in later years) was dealt with at two intermediate stations - one of these was shunted on the way down the branch so its inwards loaded coal was formed next the engine and its empties went there after that siding had been shunted. The other station was serviced on the way back so it was convenient for its inwards coal to arrive at the rear of the train thus making it front on the return trip. So one point of marshalling is to simplify station shunting work. The other side of the marshalling coin - mentioned by Jon in his comment on your blog - is 'constraints on marshalling order'; these were imposed for safety reasons so clearly could involve things such as Dangerous Goods but there was als a need to consider overhanging long loads and in some cases even the type of wagon - there were quite a lot of these sort of restrictions and it could require some interesting sophistication of you software to replicate them. Right basics now set out I think and time for questions (if there are any?). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 Ok, that's helpful. I think I can see how pure freight could be handled now. For mixed traffic I've read that the carriages would always be immediately behind the loco so that the vacuum brakes could be connected, is that true? Or could carriages sometimes end up between wagons (or vice versa)? When shunting wagons is it realistic for the loco + wagons to completely clear the station before backing into a different siding, or would they clear just the points needed? The reason I ask is that I need to decide whether to just have one decoupling magnet at the toe of the leftmost point. However I can add more between the 1st and 2nd and then between the 2nd and 3rd points if that would allow more realistic operation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katier Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Must say I have found reading this most enlightening.. so much so I'm about to start a related thread for my layout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 16, 2012 Ok, that's helpful. I think I can see how pure freight could be handled now. For mixed traffic I've read that the carriages would always be immediately behind the loco so that the vacuum brakes could be connected, is that true? Or could carriages sometimes end up between wagons (or vice versa)? Correct - the Regulations required the passenger vehicle(s) to be coupled next to the loco for that very reason (but some of the Light Railways took a distinctly cavalier attitude to that piece of Regulation because it hindered shunting at intermediate stations). When shunting wagons is it realistic for the loco + wagons to completely clear the station before backing into a different siding, or would they clear just the points needed? The reason I ask is that I need to decide whether to just have one decoupling magnet at the toe of the leftmost point. However I can add more between the 1st and 2nd and then between the 2nd and 3rd points if that would allow more realistic operation. Shunters and Guards were all human, as were engine crews, therefore the job would always be done the quickest and shortest way - get clear of the points by a few inches and that was enough (usually derailments were not unknown when folk got a bit too eager or failed to think about wagons rebounding off a sharp stop). Sooner the shunting was done it was time for breakfast/dinner as appropriate or a tea break (or over to the pub in more remote - from supervision - places) and it also meant more time for other useful pursuits such as shopping or poaching or to collect your watch from the Signalman who was mending it. The country (and sometimes the not so country) railway had a life all of its own and was very much part of the local community in many places. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIP OO Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 ....It will be operated as 'one engine in steam'..... No signalling is necessary under OES; that's the point of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19, 2012 No signalling is necessary under OES; that's the point of it. But the GWR usually provided some signals - original question, original answer at top of thread. In fact to quote a GWR publication from 1937 ' ... ONE ENGINE IN STEAM OR TWO OR MORE COUPLED TOGETHER. System used on small branches; signals only at ends of branch and at level crossings.' (BTW I'm not shouting, the caps are copied from thh original document) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 19, 2012 No signalling is necessary under OES; that's the point of it. The point of OES is to restrict the number of trains within a section, it is NOTHING to do with the provision of fixed signals (or otherwise), StationMaster has already tried to point this out to you. Granted most OES resulted in the removal of fixed signals but that was more than likely due to maintenance costs rather than a requirement per se. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 Hello again. Still on this topic, so I thought I'd carry on this thread. I've been researching the signal types before ordering parts. Would I be right in thinking that both GWR Home and Start signals would look the same, as they are sub-types of Stop signal, as shown in this thread: http://www.rmweb.co....-where-they-go/ ? I'm considering the new Dapol signals and want to make sure that I order the right type (not too much risk here as they clearly aren't the Distant type that Dapol have announced) and if I need to make any modifications to them for this layout (see above). Many thanks, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 5, 2012 Hello again. Still on this topic, so I thought I'd carry on this thread. I've been researching the signal types before ordering parts. Would I be right in thinking that both GWR Home and Start signals would look the same, as they are sub-types of Stop signal, as shown in this thread: http://www.rmweb.co....-where-they-go/ ? I'm considering the new Dapol signals and want to make sure that I order the right type (not too much risk here as they clearly aren't the Distant type that Dapol have announced) and if I need to make any modifications to them for this layout (see above). Many thanks, Most of the information you need is in that thread which you have linked Rabs. The type of signal is a Stop Signal (contrary to what seems to be so often written on the subject). The terms 'Home' and 'Starter' describe particular roles/functions which a stop signal can fulfill and their use depends on the position of the signal in relation to the track layout and any sort of block signalling system (and in some cases, particularly on the GWR, its position in relation to the controlling signalbox). Hope that helps. (and no - you won't need a Distant Signal, unless you have a very long layout ). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingsignalman Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (and no - you won't need a Distant Signal, unless you have a very long layout ). Unless you've got a tunnel mouth - distant signals do tend to linger near them on single line model railways (Only joking..................honest ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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