Army railway line in Hawley, Hampshire

[Chris L]

Hi,

 

Have just gone off on a campaign to nail something I have been curious about for many years.

 

When I lived in Farnborough, just near M3 J3a, I used to walk my dogs in an area variously known as Hawley Common, Starve Acre or Hawley Lake. It was used as an Army training ground and had a Royal Engineers establishment pretty much within it.

 

I came across a couple of curiosities in there. One was what looked like a airstrip which, having followed some threads on a few aviation forums, it appears was built as a training exercise by the Army in about 1960, but then got used in the mid 60's for take off/landing exercises by Army pilots - one guy on one forum actually stating that he landed a DH Beaver there.

 

The other curiosity was a typical, black painted, iron railway bridge, apparently just stuck out in the middle of nowhere, but not over a river as they normally are. This one just seems to be spanning a bit of uneven ground. There is, however, in alignment with it a fairly clear, straight and level path.

 

I have tried looking on Google Earth, but nothing really stands out - I have followed several other disused railway lines and most of them could not be mistaken for anything else, but if there is one here it is pretty well hidden and, in any case, there are several other footpaths around the area that could equally pass for disused railways.

 

My first instinct is to dismiss the whole thing as just another example of the Royal Engineers getting bored and building a railway bridge as an exercise, however one of the threads I followed to get to the bottom of the airstrip mystery states that there was a railway line there (exactly or just in the vicinity?) that was exclusively used by the Army.

 

Can anyone out there shed any light on this or point me in the direction of where I might find more information?

 

Thanks

[tmhotten]

I have no basic knowledge apart from also living in the area. There is a large bridge behind Minley Manor in open country that was apparently built by the Royal Engineers as an exercise and there are other such installations around the area. Since Gibralter Barracks was built there have been regular explosions that I took to be guns but I was told that this is the sound of bridges and other items built by the engineers being demolished as part of their training exercises. As there must be many others in this area on this list I too would be interested in knowing whether there were any railway related items in the area although I have seen no sign of railway tracks.

 

Terry Hotten

[steve1]

I have strong memories of what appeared to be an extensive railway system, that I believed to be military, visible from the train on the Reading-Basingstoke line. At one point it passed under the BR line with trackwork either side.

 

Is this where you're meaning?

 

steve

[Fat Controller]

I have strong memories of what appeared to be an extensive railway system, that I believed to be military, visible from the train on the Reading-Basingstoke line. At one point it passed under the BR line with trackwork either side.

 

Is this where you're meaning?

 

steve

That's the Bramley system- I don't think it's the same thing

[spamcan61]

I think tmhotten is right, any railway like civil engineering has been built by the Royal Engineers, the nearest obscure line I can think of is the one from Farnborough station to the RAE, but that's a few miles away.

[adanapress]

There was once a line to Frimley Barracks and for some years onwards to Blackdown. This was, in the 1950s, Royal Army Ordnance Corps training area. By then the track had gone but Blackdown terminus station was then (?? still is??) the Museum for the (now) Logistics Corps still complete with its platforms, on which stood an ambhibious version of the Volkswagen as I recall. I beleive this line was WW1 in date and was in fact an extension of the old line to Bisley Ranges. Frimley lake was extensively used for R.E. Bailey bridging practice, despite being pretty shallow. Darn cold work in January as I recall!

[daveyb]

The question regarding the structures at Hawley has been correctly answered as being Royal Engineer training pieces. They used to do some railway construction, but I'm not sure any is done currently. I don't know over any railway over that land but having been used as a training area in us for 60+ years, very little trace will be left.

 

The line mentioned as going to Frimley Barracks (more correctly Blackdown Barracks now Princess Royal Barracks where the RAOC trained until 1993 - rather later than the '50s) is the same as mentioned for Bisley, but served Pirbright Camp before being extended and used in the construction of the camps at both Pirbright and Blackdown. Its route can be traced through the training areas but roads cover it elsewhere. There is clearly the remains of a transshipment area with the Basingstoke canal which the line parallels. The line left the mainline by a link near Brookwood and probably extended further North and West when the camp extended further than present.

 

I'm not sure if the Corps Museum ever was in a station building but Blackdown Barracks was completely rebuilt in'67-73 and there was no station building in use as a museum after '73. I'm also not sure which lake the Frimley Lake referred to is, but I suspect it is Wharfenden Lake which was a basin on the canal and another transshipment point as that and the public land used as training areas to the north of there was all used as encampment during the 100 odd years from WW1 onwards. It is the lake in Lakeside used for the darts events.

 

You'll have probably worked out by now, I trained there!

[scruff]

The area was used by the Royal Engineers to do all their combat engineering training. The loud bangs will be explosives training (good fun!). All the while I was there I never saw any trace of a railway in the area but there were several structures that were built and demolished including transportation related structures. Yes, the lake was damned cold whenever you fell in or went for a swim!

 

Cheers

 

Mark

[CharlesAndHenry]

Hi, Charles Weager.

I know a different story about this Bridge. I often walk my dog, Henry, on  what we know as Minley Ranges. I often talk with people up there. About a year ago I met an old man who told me that he used to live at the long gone pub in Woodlands, he told me that before the war the ranges were a part of a big estate. He told me that the estate had its own railway, using a car fitted with rail wheels as a tractor. Evidence for this is in the archaeological remains.

The Ranges come up to a ridge with a road going roughly East-West. It is a very atmospheric road, I could imagine it being in an Alpline location. note that the woodland consists of stands of different tree species. I do find the bridge unlikely, in WW2 the range to the N was used for tank training.

To get there On Google Maps, use my Post Code GU17 0AT. this is next to the Reading Road, go East to the Roundabout and take the third turning (Woodside). Park about halfway up and then follow the road onto the range and follow along the ridge. After about a mile you will find this bridge. Go under the bridge and in the under growth you will find Barbed wire and bits of rusted tin. This is supposed to remains of farm storage. The rail is supposed to continue south of the bridge. An estate railway was looked upon the sign of a modern farm. The nearest example I can give is the origins of Bressingham. Close to the Farm is the remains of a 17Th century farmhouse demolished by the Army. I have dated the bricks and they could be much earlier, rising to another story.

I have been told that the airfield served WW2 purposes one for flying off SOE agents and second for flying in Top military brass. to the South of the airfield is a pit, on the North side this is stepped. I am told that this pit was used for demonstrating Military Engineering solutions to for Example Louis Mountbatten. It was last used as a film set when a Ski Station was built and the whole area Sprayed with artificial snow for the film Johnny English 2. It was also used for the South Korean border where in a James Bond film he is exchanged for a North Korean Prisoner.

The Lake to the South is Hawley lake, this was used as Chesapeake Bay for the US Civil War battleship scenes in the film Sahara. West of Hawley is an Airport, Blackebushe. This has an interesting history. recently it posed as all of the Pits for the filming of the film Rush, not yet out.

The problem with historical detail is unless there is evidence stories will develop on their lives. I know that some of the story told me is inaccurate and I haven't researched the rest.

Charles

[CharlesAndHenry]

Hi, Charles Weager.

I know a different story about this Bridge. I often walk my dog, Henry, on  what we know as Minley Ranges. I often talk with people up there. About a year ago I met an old man who told me that he used to live at the long gone pub in Woodlands, he told me that before the war the ranges were a part of a big estate. He told me that the estate had its own railway, using a car fitted with rail wheels as a tractor. Evidence for this is in the archaeological remains.

The Ranges come up to a ridge with a road going roughly East-West. It is a very atmospheric road, I could imagine it being in an Alpline location. note that the woodland consists of stands of different tree species. I do find the bridge unlikely, in WW2 the range to the N was used for tank training.

To get there On Google Maps, use my Post Code GU17 0AT. this is next to the Reading Road, go East to the Roundabout and take the third turning (Woodside). Park about halfway up and then follow the road onto the range and follow along the ridge. After about a mile you will find this bridge. Go under the bridge and in the under growth you will find Barbed wire and bits of rusted tin. This is supposed to remains of farm storage. The rail is supposed to continue south of the bridge. An estate railway was looked upon the sign of a modern farm. The nearest example I can give is the origins of Bressingham. Close to the Farm is the remains of a 17Th century farmhouse demolished by the Army. I have dated the bricks and they could be much earlier, rising to another story.

I have been told that the airfield served WW2 purposes one for flying off SOE agents and second for flying in Top military brass. to the South of the airfield is a pit, on the North side this is stepped. I am told that this pit was used for demonstrating Military Engineering solutions to for Example Louis Mountbatten. It was last used as a film set when a Ski Station was built and the whole area Sprayed with artificial snow for the film Johnny English 2. It was also used for the South Korean border where in a James Bond film he is exchanged for a North Korean Prisoner.

The Lake to the South is Hawley lake, this was used as Chesapeake Bay for the US Civil War battleship scenes in the film Sahara. West of Hawley is an Airport, Blackebushe. This has an interesting history. recently it posed as all of the Pits for the filming of the film Rush, not yet out.

The problem with historical detail is unless there is evidence stories will develop on their lives. I know that some of the story told me is inaccurate and I haven't researched the rest.

Charles

[tmhotten]

Hi, Charles Weager.

I know a different story about this Bridge. I often walk my dog, Henry, on  what we know as Minley Ranges. I often talk with people up there. About a year ago I met an old man who told me that he used to live at the long gone pub in Woodlands, he told me that before the war the ranges were a part of a big estate. He told me that the estate had its own railway, using a car fitted with rail wheels as a tractor. Evidence for this is in the archaeological remains.

The Ranges come up to a ridge with a road going roughly East-West. It is a very atmospheric road, I could imagine it being in an Alpline location. note that the woodland consists of stands of different tree species. I do find the bridge unlikely, in WW2 the range to the N was used for tank training.

To get there On Google Maps, use my Post Code GU17 0AT. this is next to the Reading Road, go East to the Roundabout and take the third turning (Woodside). Park about halfway up and then follow the road onto the range and follow along the ridge. After about a mile you will find this bridge. Go under the bridge and in the under growth you will find Barbed wire and bits of rusted tin. This is supposed to remains of farm storage. The rail is supposed to continue south of the bridge. An estate railway was looked upon the sign of a modern farm. The nearest example I can give is the origins of Bressingham. Close to the Farm is the remains of a 17Th century farmhouse demolished by the Army. I have dated the bricks and they could be much earlier, rising to another story.

I have been told that the airfield served WW2 purposes one for flying off SOE agents and second for flying in Top military brass. to the South of the airfield is a pit, on the North side this is stepped. I am told that this pit was used for demonstrating Military Engineering solutions to for Example Louis Mountbatten. It was last used as a film set when a Ski Station was built and the whole area Sprayed with artificial snow for the film Johnny English 2. It was also used for the South Korean border where in a James Bond film he is exchanged for a North Korean Prisoner.

The Lake to the South is Hawley lake, this was used as Chesapeake Bay for the US Civil War battleship scenes in the film Sahara. West of Hawley is an Airport, Blackebushe. This has an interesting history. recently it posed as all of the Pits for the filming of the film Rush, not yet out.

The problem with historical detail is unless there is evidence stories will develop on their lives. I know that some of the story told me is inaccurate and I haven't researched the rest.

Charles

Hi Charles,

thanks for the explanation. I also walk in this area and will use your notes for further invetigation.

Terry

[tmhotten]

The question regarding the structures at Hawley has been correctly answered as being Royal Engineer training pieces. They used to do some railway construction, but I'm not sure any is done currently. I don't know over any railway over that land but having been used as a training area in us for 60+ years, very little trace will be left.

 

The line mentioned as going to Frimley Barracks (more correctly Blackdown Barracks now Princess Royal Barracks where the RAOC trained until 1993 - rather later than the '50s) is the same as mentioned for Bisley, but served Pirbright Camp before being extended and used in the construction of the camps at both Pirbright and Blackdown. Its route can be traced through the training areas but roads cover it elsewhere. There is clearly the remains of a transshipment area with the Basingstoke canal which the line parallels. The line left the mainline by a link near Brookwood and probably extended further North and West when the camp extended further than present.

 

I'm not sure if the Corps Museum ever was in a station building but Blackdown Barracks was completely rebuilt in'67-73 and there was no station building in use as a museum after '73. I'm also not sure which lake the Frimley Lake referred to is, but I suspect it is Wharfenden Lake which was a basin on the canal and another transshipment point as that and the public land used as training areas to the north of there was all used as encampment during the 100 odd years from WW1 onwards. It is the lake in Lakeside used for the darts events.

 

You'll have probably worked out by now, I trained there!

As with Charles' posting thanks for your comments. The line from Brookwood went to Bisley camp and was known, I am told, as the Bisley Bullet. It was extended to serve the camp in a similar way to the Longmoor Military Railway from the Bordon branch.

[CharlesAndHenry]

Hi, Charles Weager.

 

Thanks Terry, I am up there frequently, usually at weekends. Henry is recognisable He is a Collie / Lab cross Black with a square white patch on his chest and sports a red collar. He is usually followed by an idiot trying to call him back.

 

Additional notes. At Blackwater between Tesco and Homebase is a lane called the Tank Lane. This was a railway route into for bringing heavy kit into Sandhurst, where did it connect to the railway system? Near to the Gasworks I guess, there would have had to be sidings there for the works. I have found some pics in Hugh Ballantynes "Southern Steam In Colour" Pub Janes. Pages 43, 44, 56, 57 and 70. Gives me an excuse to get a Wainwright 'C'! Also a local mag, received today turned up this, the pub in Woodlands. Now I cannot display the photos.

[CharlesAndHenry]

Charles Weager Again.

 

This line on the Minley Ranges has taken on a life of its own. There are contradicting stories. First we must be specific. The Minley Ranges at Hawley are to the west of the Blackwater Valley, quickly identified by the Reading to Gatwick line that passes through Blackwater Station. Frimley and its ranges at Ash is to the East of this line and south of Camberley. So we are dealing with two locations here. I am talking about the Minley Ranges.

 

I have walked what I think is the remains of a railway track bed and Think I have located the route from the maim line at just south of Blackwater(the Gas works) up and into the Army Camp. You can see it on maps and on Bing aerial photos. Note the earliest map I had was 1920, track bed , yes, track, no.

 

One of my neighbours was a senior instructor at Minley barracks which is an engineering school (REME?) not the Run Away Someone is coming (RAOC). He says that all Army Railway work was done down at Longmoor. (Alhough the railway may have been before his time or Knowledge).

 

I have been told that there was a railway for bringing up materials to build Minley Manor (on Google pics) this is a French Chateau style Gin Palace. So no shortage of money to show off and having their own private rail to bring up coke from the gasworks.

 

I am still researching, evidence shows that it was probably gone before the first war. The track bed is very well built. I am attaching some aerial phots with my interpretations in zip format as they are too large to send raw..

 

 

[CharlesAndHenry]

charles weager again,

 

I meant to attach these files, read the readme file with them.

 

I have zipped them, to unzip , right click on the file and select "extract all"

 

Enjoy.

 

Charles

[CharlesAndHenry]

Does anyone know where my pics have gone? I attached them to the forum as required at the bottom of this page.

[tmhotten]

Hi Charles,

I have been examining my relevant books. In 'The Reading to Tonbridge Line' by R.W.Kidner published by the Oakwood Press (1974) there is a map of the Blackwater area showing a siding to the gas works, south of the A30 bridge; the branch that you mention for the delivery of materials to the RMA and a branch marked 'Patterson's siding' that left the line to the S of the bridge over the Blackwater heading SW. Unfortunately there is nothing shown heading towards Hawley. The Middleton volume on the Reading to Guildford line has a number of nice period pictures of the station and a plan showing Patterson's siding that served a gravel pit in the 1930s and did not extend as far as Rosemary Lane.

 

Terry Hotten

[CharlesAndHenry]

Terry,

 

The RMA is to the NE of the gasworks and there is a road called the tank road. Apparently they used to bring in heavy equipment such as tanks. This route is supposed to cross what is now the Meadows Roundabout.

 

The whole area is pockmarked with gravel extraction in pits ranging from small holes to lake sized holes. It is very likely that many small line would pprobably exist such as the Patterson's siding. I walked Horseshoe lake (between Yateley and Sandhurst) and found a modern equivalent, a long distant conveyor shifting gravel at quite a rate. I have seen pictures of working such as this working in among gravelpits and gravel pit lakes.

 

On the Minley ranges The building material option is a good one followed with a coke supply route. The spur that goes under the trackbed at the bridge does descend towards what looked like a gravelworking. But dragging all of that uphill doesnt make sense unless the gravel was for building the house. Look up Minley Manor in Google pics it is a grade 2 listed. It is my next line of attack.

 

What puzzles me is the quality of the structures. I was looking for the continuation and traced it to the the airstrip. I thought my solution would be at the E end. I went there and where I thought it would be, nothing not even a bump or dip then I turned around and I saw a perfect incline. I looked at it and there was a perfectly level track. None of the othertracks are level. This I think was the incline. it is a pity you cannot see my maps. Look at OS maps on Bing maps, find the airfield. Find Starve Acre. to the east of the name is a track following a boundary. Follow it in a SE direction, it then  turns NE and in a straight line down to the Hawley road. I believe this is the railway embankment down to Hawley. Assuming old boundaries I can follow it through the houses down to the railway.

 

 

Sorry about all of this but I love a project. I was a Cartographer, am a Historian and have been an Archaeologist.

Sorry about the pics, I have produced all of my theory on maps and overlays together with pics.but cannot get them to load up.

 

Charles.

[CharlesAndHenry]

Readme.txt

[CharlesAndHenry]

I have at last managed to upload my research. All in an unweildy block.

 

Note each map has the original plus a copy which has my tracks drawn on them.

The photos are in order, with a readme file.

Identify the photos by hovering the cursor over the image.

 

Charles.

[CharlesAndHenry]

Charles Weager again,

 

More Photos, Henry dragged me out because he could hear the soldiers playing games. Some interesting activities, you will see later. You had better appreciate these as we braved the snow to get these.

Again I have included a readme file to help explain what and why I have taken, Please use the maps to provide a guide to location.

 

Charles

Readme2.txt

[class"66"]

Interesting read!! great pictures too......

[adanapress]

In 1955-57 the station at Blackdown was definitely the RAOC Corps Museum. They loaned me my sword.  No track left save for a sleeper or two where the buffers would once have been. Platforms had museum piece vehicles parked on including an ambhibious version of the Volkswagen.    In the woods nearby one could meet a lady telephonist from the then secret location telephone exchange

disguised as an ordinary house..

[CharlesAndHenry]

Charles and Henry,

Back on the job.

I am drawing a blank with records and documentation.

So what do we know. The track was on the map by 1919, but no railway line. I have found that the Manor was a WWI convalecence Hospital. before that the estate was private property and was subject to developent three times. I have found no evidence of any railway apart from the evidence on the road, nothing. No records, acounts, no nothing.

All is not yet lost, I have the RAMC(medical corps) museum to tackle, also Farnborough Library and Hampshire records. I have looked at there archive lists but they dont look promising.

Yet as I walk it I still feel railway. So I am still looking, regardless the route would make a brilliant light railway standard or narrow guage with a link to the Main Line and a Gasworks.

 

Adanapress.

The Hawley Railway is to the West of Camberley. Blackwater is the nearest town (sic!). You are thinking of Blackdown to the SouthEast of Camberley. I understand the RAOC still have a museum tehre and I may poke my nose in to see if they were involved in WW1 along with the Medical Corps at Ash. I hope that helps you.If they have a light railway it might make a good subject.

 

.

[CharlesAndHenry]

If anyone who reads this blog, especially non RMweb visitors, wishes to contact me or make a comment please feel free to contact me on charlesweager1@gmail.com you can tweet me at @_jabiru.

I am also generally around the site most mornings between 10 and 11, however you will have to find me first.

 

I am still plugging away at archives and old mapping. My problem is that, like other things, there just aint enough hours in the day.

 

Charles