JZ Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I have just obtained a Lima class 117 at a very reasonable price. I intend to go to town on this, replacing windows with SEF flushglaze, changing the pizza cutter wheels, swapping motor for a Black Beetle, using DCKits parts to convert a DMBS to DMS. installing lighting, some form of close coupling, etc, etc......... Couple of questions though. 1. Lining and numbering. Cream or yellow? 2. Best colour match using Halfords paint? I understand that DMU green changed around 1960? I will be having it with whiskers, rather than yellow panel and my setting is 1960-66. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 1. Cream 2. 117s never carried the lighter shade of green, except in preservation Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 Thanks Chris. Does anyone know the Halfords colour match for this? I have checked RAF Kinloss site and they don't mention it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 20, 2012 Or unlined for the early sets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 I think they look rather bland without lining, however, I have yet to find a picture of one with whiskers and lining. A couple of sites suggest that it was done when they had yellow panels. Also the first gangways were not fitted until 1964, with all sets done by 1968. These sites also say that seats were red(fairly dark I would think), floors and drivers seats green. But what about 1st class ? The more usual deep blue? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted January 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2012 I don't think they need lining. Here's a picture of a class 125 (similar to class 116, but with hydraulic transmission) with whiskers and no lining, and I think it looks quite nice. http://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/6660370833/in/photostream/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Page 59, "The changing railway scene - Western Region" by Laurence Waters, Ian Allan, 2008 (not their finest) shows a set at Ealing Broadway in March 1962. The lead vehicle is 51332 which has had lining added to its whiskers - I remember this from when I was a 14 year old spotty spotter living in Acton! The other vehicles in the set are still unlined. (On the same page, incidentally, is a shot of a 116 at Radyr which claims to be "around 1959". Not with a small yellow panel it isn't, try 1963. That is one reason why I describe the book as not their finest. There are others ...) On page 61 of the same tome is a view of a set arriving at Uxbridge Vine Street in 1962 with all three cars lined and whiskers. Don't forget btw that the 118s loooked extremely similar to the 117s and most of them came out with lining and whiskers. Remember also that neither class was built with gangways. These were added after yellow panels had been introduced. I'll happily look it up later but I'm about to leave for the Leamington show! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Now found some pictures dated 1961 with lining and another dated 1963 without, so I will be doing it lined. As an aside, I remeber travelling on non-gangwayed stock when on holiday in the early sixties. It could be a very long journey for a small child with no access to a toilet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Thanks Chris. Does anyone know the Halfords colour match for this? I have checked RAF Kinloss site and they don't mention it. Vauxhall Pine Green is my first suggestion, but I stand to be corrected. I'm using close-match Vauxhall Jade for Eastern Scottish bus resprays, but I'll happily be corrected on that one too! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2012 The early Pressed Steel sets (later Class 117 came originally in unlined dark dmu green with a 'speed whisker' on the ends, later sets were delivered lined (with speed whisker) and the early unlined sets were lined out and retained their speed whisker. Subsequently teh sets received yellow panels. It is I suppose quite likely that some sets weren't lined until they acquired the yellow panel but I can't recall any - although we are talking 50 years ago when i were but a lad. Off for breakfast (honest) now but will come back later on interior colours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2012 Right to start off here's a pic of a fairly new early Pressed Steel set - b&w I'm afraid but it shows the green to be the dark version quite well - As far as the interiors were concerned some details have stuck in the mind quite well (I did travel on them quite a lot after all). The 2nd Class seats had a dark red upholstered top but the sides were in a sort of plasticky material in pale brown, the walls were done in a palish wood patterned Formica and all interior woodwork was varnished giving a mid-brown final colour. The floors were definitely not green - in fact I recall the colour as a fairly neutral pale colour with a subtle 'swirly/nothing' pattern in int - not as yellwish as cream but more toned than white (and obviously difficult to describe ). Interior doors were similarly finished and the outward opening passenger doors also had the patterned Formica as their bottom panel. I cannot recall the Driver's seat as green and I think it was probably black but the blinds between the driving cab and passenger area were definitely a very dark green looking almost black in some light. I don't know much about the original 1st Class seats but Dr Watney (I think he was Watney but his name definitely began with a 'W') very quickly decided the ergonomics of the 1st Class seats was a potential back problem and he redsigned the seat and squab to a more suitable arrangement. These seats were upholstered in dark blue as were their sides (including above above seat cushion level) and the arm rests. 1st Class floor areas were carpeted in a dark colour - probably dark blue but I'm not sure on that. And that's about the best I can do Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westerner Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 A pic of mine redone as an early one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted January 22, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 22, 2012 just remembered that the original railcar.co.uk site is available using the wayback machine and found these: http://web.archive.org/web/20071226222028/http://www.railcar.co.uk/his110-119/117desc.htm http://web.archive.o...-119/117liv.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Mike Station Master, if you hover the cursor over your pic it says Twyford 1959. If that is the case the picture shows the first set but I have to say it does not look very new! I've just bought Part 1 of "The Allocation History of BR Diesel Multiple Units" by Roger Harris which states that the first set was allocated to Reading in November 1959 and the next appeared in February 1960. Railway Observer at the time gave delivery in December 1959 and, IIRC, no allocation. This demonstrates two things. First, it is unwise to rely on one source where history is concerned. Second, look at the quote below my signature! What is undeniable - I hope - is that delivery of the 117s was late and units had to be borrowed from elsewhere to work Paddington suburban services. The borrowed units were 116s and 119s but neither had the necessary apparatus to clip up the ATC shoes clear of the fourth rail on the Hammersmith and City line which shared the tracks in from Royal Oak with WR trains using the suburban platforms at Paddington. Result: misery! Chris Edited for typos [more haste less speed again] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 The 2nd Class seats had a dark red upholstered top but the sides were in a sort of plasticky material in pale brown Page 62 of Stuart Mackay's book First Generation DMUs in Colour has a 1962 photo of a unit just a mile down the line from Mike's picture above, showing a glimpse in colour of the interior of the DMBS. Per Stuart's caption, "the seating can be clearly seen in this view; these originally being maroon with tan headrests". Aside from the fact that the Pressed Steel seats were far too low to be described as having headrests (shoulder rests?), the photo shows that the main colour visible through the windows was the tan of this deep horizontal band across the top of the seats, and there were also broad tan coloured vertical strips dividing the maroon moquette on each 3-seater bench into individual seats. And if you really are going to go to town on this model, don't forget the very characteristic oval mirrors that were fitted in the saloons just behind the driver's cab. I think that they disappeared from the 117s when they were refurbished in the 1970s, but the 118s kept them into the 80s. I used to love travelling in the Pressed Steels as a lad - I'd pay good money to have one all stations from Didcot to Reading again! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2012 Mike Station Master, if you hover the cursor over your pic it says Twyford 1959. If that is the case the picture shows the first set but I have to say it does not look very new! I've just bought Part 1 of "The Allocation History of BR Diesel Multiple Units" by Roger Harris which states that the first set was allocated to Reading in November 1959 and the next appeared in February 1960. Railway Observer at the time gave delivery in December 1959 and, IIRC, no allocation. This demonstrates two things. First, it is unwise to rely on one source where history is concerned. Second, look at the quote below my signature! Chris Edited for typos [more haste less speed again] I dated it from an old roll of negs and it is possible that (in my impecunious youth) I started the film in 1959 and finished it in 1960. Good clue to 'best before' date is of course the headcode as the set - if correctly coded - should have been carrying a 4 digit code after June 1960. The set is was still fairly new I reckon as the white painted legend on the buffer beam (about ATC Clip-Up I seem to recall - something like 'Fitted with ATC Clip-Up Gear and Trip Cock' looking at my copy on the 'puter) got dirtied over fairly quickly in traffic as did the buffers of course. So I'll settle for 'early 1960' and have duly re-christened the file copy - thanks Chris. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Right to start off here's a pic of a fairly new early Pressed Steel set - b&w I'm afraid but it shows the green to be the dark version quite well - I hate to rain on your parade but this is a picture of a class 118 BRCW unit - note the shaped top to the headcode panel where Pressed Steel units have a flattened profile. However, I'm sure that doesn't affect the rest of ypur post regarding colours of seats, although it may affect the colours of trim panels, formicas used, etc by the different manufacturers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted January 22, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 22, 2012 Don't forget, when you "go to town", that the 117s were delivered without intermediate gangways. The Lima ones would need removing and the ends panelled over. The gangways were retro-fitted (to use the modern term) after a few years in service. While sets were done at different times I associate plain green with non-gangwayed and green syp with the changeover years. All were gangwayed by the time blue appeared. Class 116 and 118 sets were done a little later and some of those made it into early blue without gangways IIRC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted January 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2012 Not the best shots but here a couple of my 117: I would agree with JZ that the lack of lining makes them look a little dull, but I liked the speed whiskers. I've half a mind to add lining. The models have had flush glazing and Ultrascale wheels, but the motor is the original Lima. I've added extra pickups but it's still a bit unresponsive in one direction, so I may go the Black Beetle route at some point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Black Beetles do make a huge difference to the quality of the running. A cheaper option would be to buy the Hornby class 121 (especially if you can get a bargain bin one!) and swap the chassis into your unit's DMBS. I did this to my class 120 that used a Lima 117 chassis - I only had to cut or file the end shape at one end to fit the squarer non-driving end of the Lima body (which still underlies the brass sides and ends of the Craftsman conversion in my case). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I hate to rain on your parade but this is a picture of a class 118 BRCW unit - note the shaped top to the headcode panel where Pressed Steel units have a flattened profile. Hmm - not too sure about this. The first three 117s had the same curved shape to the top of the headcode panel as the 118s - these are the sets that in later years became Reading's L400/1/2. As far as I know from the various sources, the 118s were all delivered in lined green, so I think that Mike's photo does indeed show one of the first Pressed Steel sets to be delivered (and as a result the quoted date of the photo may be correct). David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 As always a wealth of information. Many thanks to all of you. Al, yours does look good, the flushglazing makes a huge diiference. SRman, thanks for the tip about the Hornby 121 chassis, I hadn't even thought of going that route. As for numbering, did they remain together as a set for most of their lives, or would they be swapped around ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Jules, the likes of Mike and Chris can, I'm sure, provide more definitive data on this (maybe even specific set observations). However, from my research (albeit ScR and LM) the sets were delivered, and remained in, original formations from the point of introduction, before inevitable dilution set-in, especially after wholesale line closures and consequent reallocations. I have the bible to hand if you want the basic data, which years are you after? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'll have to come back later on that. Yet to order a sheet of transfers from ModelMaster (sheet 4301C) Will wait and see what is in the set. I also see from photo's, that the lights on the Lima model are not on any units I have seen in green with whiskers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted January 23, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'll have to come back later on that. Yet to order a sheet of transfers from ModelMaster (sheet 4301C) Will wait and see what is in the set. I also see from photo's, that the lights on the Lima model are not on any units I have seen in green with whiskers. I sanded them off, although it's not obvious from the pics. I also used normal round DMU buffers, glued them in place and then filed them down carefully to give a better impression of the type with the straight tops and bottoms - a bit of a bodge but I wasn't aware of the differences when I fixed the buffers (just typed "######", which is strangely appropriate) in place. I have to say, these DMUs are a bloody minefield - the one reference book I have, while full of lots of good images and set numbers, doesn't really walk the uninitiated through the basics in a particularly clear fashion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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