1947 GWR freight for Cheddar

[The Fatadder]

I've now started trying to work out the freight stock that will be required for Cheddar

 

At the moment I have 2 photos of freight trains passing through Cheddar in my period, although the photos are too low in resolution to identify individual wagons.

 

As such I want to build up a pool of stock from which I can form a couple of rakes.

 

Looking at my two photos it looks like predominantly open wagons of a couple of different heights, along with a couple of vans and a Toad. One that will definitely be modelled is a 1 plank with some type of farm equipment.

 

Currently all I have is an old Bachmann conflat & Mogo along with a ratio van, all of which need the chassis rebuilding. I was looking at getting the Bachmann 12t southern van thats available in GW livery, + a couple of the Bachmann GW ventilated van along with some Bachmann GW cattle wagons.

 

For opens, I really havent a clue. Would they be in GW's own livery or privet owners?

 

Regarding Toads, would there be a mix of different diagrams?

 

Any other information and advice would be very welcome.

[lonesome_whistle]

Regarding brake vans, it's fairly likely, this being the Great Western, that there may have been dedicated van(s) for your trains. Can you identify the Brake Vans and their lettering from the pictures you have? The Ratio model makes a good basis - more information can be found in the Geoff Kent book that deals with brake vans (Pt 3, off the top of my head) and also here. 'Opens' will fall into a couple of groups; coal wagons, which would be mostly pooled PO wagons at this time, and merchandise wagons which would be company stock (and not just GWR vehicles although they would probably be the majority), the same would apply to vans. Geoff Kent's Wild Swan books provide a good basis for anyone wishing to construct a typical goods train of the period you're interested in. Try to avoid the more unusual and specialist vehicles as, in terms of numbers, they were very much in the minority.

 

HTH,

 

Tony

[The Fatadder]

Unfortunately the photos I have are really photos of locos, as such you can barely make out the break van, will add the Wild Swan books (along with the Russell wagon book) to my shopping list.

[Ravenser]

Rich:

 

Key point is that all ordinary vans / opens were in a common user pool. Hence any railway could use them I think the GW had withdrawn some categories of fitted wagons from the pool and cattle wagons - from memory - were never pooled , though a farmer relocating from Cumbria to Devon might well turn up in LMS wagons

 

History of GW Goods Wagons gives the numbers in the common user pool at 1923 as LMS: 217,000 ; LNER 170,000 GW 65,000, SR 29,000 Obviously there might be slight variances by 1947 , especially if the GW was not pooling some fitted types with the other 3 companies. Given that they are likely to have been evenly mixed, most of the wagons on Cheddar should be LMS+ LNER . I came up with a ratio of 8 LMS 7 LNER 2 GW 1 SR for my purposes with the boxfile

 

Opens - 7 planks are minerals , and these will be overwhelmingly wooden PO heavily weathered (none had been painted since 1939) but with the lettering still visible. I suggest the pre-painted versions of Slaters kits

 

5 planks are the standard railway open high , and from what you're saying Cheddar was still overwhelmingly dominated by opens , though vans were an increasingly high proprtion of traffic nationally (pre-grouping freights in photos show almost all opens with a handful of vans - but the wagon census figures in the back of the old Tatlow 1 vol LNER wagons give for 1947 90,549 opens play 51,000 vans) . 3 planks are an LMS speciality - the Med/Medfit , and the GW don't seem to have gone in for 1 planks. Your 1 plank with farm equipment is almost certainly LMS or LNER - Bachmann do a model.

 

For opens, you want lots of LMS + LNER wagons I'd suggest you look at Cambrian , who do LMS 5 planks with wood and steel chassis - the D1666 wooden chassis must rank after the BR 1/108 mineral as the most numerous British wagon type.

 

They also do the LNER 6 plank which was the Gresley equivalent. The old Ratio kit for the GW 5 plank is perfectly serviceable and can be built for several diagrams (but I don't seem to have any photos to hand of mine). What you will better know as OHV (LNER steel high) and OWV (LMS wood high) are both possible - these were built in quantity from 1945. The Southern had few opens - I suggest 1 SR van is probably all you need....

 

And you can mix in a few bedraggled pre-grouping vehicles

 

 

(ex MR coke + Chas Roberts PO - both Slaters , ex GE open - secondhand Stelfox kit)

 

You could certainly season the wooden PO minerals with a few of the early 16T minerals - the Chas Roberts slope sided mineral has been done by Bachmann , and cambrian do some pre nationalisation 16 tonners , though the SNCF-type cupboard door wagons were all in France in 1947

 

Craig Welsh's acrylic weathered PO article in MRJ about 18 months ago will be indispensible and I think he's done some "rapid quantity upgrading for P4" articles as well which may be valuable - I can't locate the references.

 

For cattle wagons, I'd stick to the Airfix kit, as I recall Bachmann made their wagon a foot too long , and Airfix wagon kits are eminently buildable - the BR wagon is effectively a reissued post war GW diagram. There is an invaluable article in Rly Modeller "Mex" from the early 80s - one of the great series by Brian Huxley who went through the entire GW wagon index and built one of viretually every diagram; each article covers one letter/type of the index. Runs intermittantly through the Modellewr from about 1976 to mid 80s

 

Hope this helps

[jcm@gwr]

On the subject of not having wagons that were too specialised, I don't recall too many

companies transporting hedges!

For opens, I really havent a clue. Would they be in GW's own livery or privet owners?

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist that.

I will be following the replies with interest.

Good luck, Jeff

[lonesome_whistle]

A couple of photos of goods trains in the locale can be found on flickr - there's a LMS van, a GW van (I think), a couple of opens and a whole bunch of conflats in this picture. One of the containers appears to be loaded in a low-sided open of some description.

[phil_sutters]

A couple of photos of goods trains in the locale can be found on flickr - there's a LMS van, a GW van (I think), a couple of opens and a whole bunch of conflats in this picture. One of the containers appears to be loaded in a low-sided open of some description.

There is another one in the Wells area, also a bit later than your period, but with a similar selection of goods stock, at http://www.flickr.com/photos/phil-seaford/5355386048/ Unfortunately none of the markings are legible.

There is a nice shot of a Yatton toad on page 65 of Colin Maggs' Branch Lines of Somerset. Vic Mitchell & Keith Smith's Branch Line to Cheddar has various shots of goods stock over the years, including a nice one of Siphons being used for the strawberry traffic.

[Ravenser]

There is another one in the Wells area, also a bit later than your period, but with a similar selection of goods stock, at http://www.flickr.co...ord/5355386048/ Unfortunately none of the markings are legible.

There is a nice shot of a Yatton toad on page 65 of Colin Maggs' Branch Lines of Somerset. Vic Mitchell & Keith Smith's Branch Line to Cheddar has various shots of goods stock over the years, including a nice one of Siphons being used for the strawberry traffic.

 

That seems to be formed :

 

Someone's 5 plank High open (?GW or LMS?) heavily weathered/ GW Mink / ? LMS van pre corregations/ SR van (Lynes roof unmistakable) /? LNER van/ unfitted van - possibly GW Mink judging by roof line / unfittedvan ? LNER (compare with 5th vehicle)/ 3 x 5 plank opens of uncertain origin,/ and a van which is not GW - cos single vent, nor SR cos of the roof profile, and doesn't have corregated ends so its earlier Grouping. Might be LMS1920s???. / And I think there's a Toad at the back, with veranda forwards

 

One interesting question is how an open in heavily weathered wood - presumably unfitted - comes to be leading a train which has patently been marshalled with a fitted head

[The Fatadder]

A couple of photos of goods trains in the locale can be found on flickr - there's a LMS van, a GW van (I think), a couple of opens and a whole bunch of conflats in this picture. One of the containers appears to be loaded in a low-sided open of some description.

Thanks for that link, not one I've come across before and while the photos are 6 years after my period its a good start for trying to work out some formations. I liked the short train of a Toad, Esso tank and a pannier.

The two combined workings in the linked photo also looked interesting.

 

 

There is another one in the Wells area, also a bit later than your period, but with a similar selection of goods stock, at http://www.flickr.co...ord/5355386048/ Unfortunately none of the markings are legible.

There is a nice shot of a Yatton toad on page 65 of Colin Maggs' Branch Lines of Somerset. Vic Mitchell & Keith Smith's Branch Line to Cheddar has various shots of goods stock over the years, including a nice one of Siphons being used for the strawberry traffic.

Will have to go and have another read through the 3 cheddar books and see what Ive missed. Having gone through the electronic extracts of Steaming Through Cheddar that I have saved on the laptop (must really do the other books as well!) I have found a photo taken from the road bridge facing away from the station of lots of open wagons loaded with aggregate (presumably from the covered loading siding.) Any more info on these would be very welcome.

 

The fruit workings I have a lot of data on, both on Syphon types and the use of Fruit D etc. I would be interested if there are records of the grey fruit wagons being used.

 

I really hadnt realised quite how many off network wagons would be needed.

 

Looking in my Cheddar storage box, I currently have:

1 Conflat, 1 MOGO, 1 MACAW, all in GW along with more modern releases of a Charles Roberts slope sided steel mineral and a Charles Roberts 14t tank (both of which are Bachmann Collectors club editions that need repainting.) Are any of these of no use? (and need to be sold on)

My only other PO wagons are all based from around the Calne area, and I'd hazard a guess are of no use.

I also have a Foster Yeoman branded open, I'd assume there is no chance of it getting diverted

 

 

Is there much else on the Cheddar branch in Branch Lines of Somerset? Its not a book that I have at the moment and would be interested as to its value.

 

Ravenser, thanks for the advice on kits. Will start looking out for a few more to build when I am in Toulouse. My original plan of spending my 6 months away from home working on etched kits has been shot down by getting put in a hotel rather than a house (I doubt their fire alarms etc will be happy with solder fumes!) Instead its going to be a case of stocking up on plastic based projects!

[The Stationmaster]

That seems to be formed :

 

Someone's 5 plank High open (?GW or LMS?) heavily weathered/ GW Mink / ? LMS van pre corregations/ SR van (Lynes roof unmistakable) /? LNER van/ unfitted van - possibly GW Mink judging by roof line / unfittedvan ? LNER (compare with 5th vehicle)/ 3 x 5 plank opens of uncertain origin,/ and a van which is not GW - cos single vent, nor SR cos of the roof profile, and doesn't have corregated ends so its earlier Grouping. Might be LMS1920s???. / And I think there's a Toad at the back, with veranda forwards

One interesting question is how an open in heavily weathered wood - presumably unfitted - comes to be leading a train which has patently been marshalled with a fitted head

What fitted head? The train is lamped as Class K - which I would expect as we are hardly talking about mainline through working and no Guard or Shunter worth his salt is going to waste his time and everybody else's bagging up vacuum pipes when there is no need to. Even if the train were formed with all the fitted vans immediately behind the loco I very much doubt that they would have bothered to bag-up the pipes - far too much like wasting good shunting/tea/beer break time.

[phil_sutters]

Thanks for that link, not one I've come across before and while the photos are 6 years after my period its a good start for trying to work out some formations. I liked the short train of a Toad, Esso tank and a pannier.

The two combined workings in the linked photo also looked interesting.

 

 

 

Will have to go and have another read through the 3 cheddar books and see what Ive missed. Having gone through the electronic extracts of Steaming Through Cheddar that I have saved on the laptop (must really do the other books as well!) I have found a photo taken from the road bridge facing away from the station of lots of open wagons loaded with aggregate (presumably from the covered loading siding.) Any more info on these would be very welcome.

 

The fruit workings I have a lot of data on, both on Syphon types and the use of Fruit D etc. I would be interested if there are records of the grey fruit wagons being used.

 

I really hadnt realised quite how many off network wagons would be needed.

 

Looking in my Cheddar storage box, I currently have:

1 Conflat, 1 MOGO, 1 MACAW, all in GW along with more modern releases of a Charles Roberts slope sided steel mineral and a Charles Roberts 14t tank (both of which are Bachmann Collectors club editions that need repainting.) Are any of these of no use? (and need to be sold on)

My only other PO wagons are all based from around the Calne area, and I'd hazard a guess are of no use.

I also have a Foster Yeoman branded open, I'd assume there is no chance of it getting diverted

 

 

Is there much else on the Cheddar branch in Branch Lines of Somerset? Its not a book that I have at the moment and would be interested as to its value.

 

Ravenser, thanks for the advice on kits. Will start looking out for a few more to build when I am in Toulouse. My original plan of spending my 6 months away from home working on etched kits has been shot down by getting put in a hotel rather than a house (I doubt their fire alarms etc will be happy with solder fumes!) Instead its going to be a case of stocking up on plastic based projects!

Branch Lines of Somerset has four pages of history & description of the line from Yatton to Witham, a map, nine steam era photos and 3 diesel era. The best photo is of a pannier on a weedkiller train made up of old loco tenders,a tank wagon and two toads. The other Somerset branch lines also should be of interest as their rolling stock would have been similar. There is a good shot of a ROD 2-8-0 with three 7plank opens, the nearest two have P - private owner - numbers, a steel mineral wagon and a five plank open. This is at Fry's Bottom, Clutton.

[The Fatadder]

I am guessing from the fact that the weedkiller train has a pannier on the front, its in BR days?

 

Thanks for that insight Mike, very useful to know that the 'rules' for forming trains as I saw them are not truly applicable in this case

[Il Grifone]

Any P.O. coal wagon would be suitable in 1947 - they were pooled during the war, but probably wouldn't all be from the same area. All wooden open wagons had not been painted since early in the war, so would be looking tired by 1947. LNER wooden underframe wagons (some/all? opens and especially cattle wagons) were beginning to droop at the ends by the end of the war, so should be avoided, but anything else would do.

 

The traffic at Cheddar included cheese (obviously) and, seasonally, strawberries requiring vans and fruit vans or even cattle wagons for the strawberries.

 

Incidently both the Bachmann* and Airfix cattle wagons are BR wagons and are not the same as the GWR wagons, though based on this design (the principle difference is in the roof curvature and immediately noticeable. The only plastic kit is the Coopercraft W1/5 from around 1900, but there is nothing for the later designs.

 

I would suggest Yatton as a possible brake van branding (without evidence), but Bristol Temple Meads is also possible/probable (and available on the HMRS sheet - as is Taunton another possibility).

 

Do you have this book?

 

http://www.middletonpress.co.uk/lardetails.php?bdetails=978%201%20873793%2090%209

[The Fatadder]

 

Do you have this book?

 

http://www.middletonpress.co.uk/lardetails.php?bdetails=978%201%20873793%2090%209

Yes I do have a copy

Most of the photos seem to be from the late 50s/60s so a bit too late for me

[craigwelsh]

Craig Welsh's acrylic weathered PO article in MRJ about 18 months ago will be indispensible and I think he's done some "rapid quantity upgrading for P4" articles as well which may be valuable - I can't locate the references.

 

Hope this helps

Cheers . I did fall off my chair in shock at the idea of 'rapid' though, im still not finished on the one train...

 

There are good photos just post war of mixed goods and yards in 4mm wagon part 1 and 4mm coal wagon. Both also have the livery detail you need.

 

I wouldn't be too worried about 50s photos as long as you substitute BR diagrams with something from the LMS/LNER. Only if the local traffic changed vastly would you see a big difference in train makeup.

 

That 2nd shot was interesting showing the lineup of GWR, LMS, SR and then LNER designs of van.

 

As i suggested to Brinkly elsewhere, a liberal purchase of the new Bachmann LNER offerings would be a good bet. Wheelswap or a Bradwell chassis if you are feeling adventurous.

[Fat Controller]

Don't forget that the GWR, and BR, used Siphon Gs for seasonal fruit traffic. As regards brake van allocation- I'm pretty certain I've seen 'Witham RU'.

[The Fatadder]

Don't forget that the GWR, and BR, used Siphon Gs for seasonal fruit traffic. As regards brake van allocation- I'm pretty certain I've seen 'Witham RU'.

 

Lots of Siphons are on the to do list, all of which will be from the "Return to Yatton" pool, this along with a couple of Parkside Fruit D and a GeenY3 Fruit van should allow me to have at least have 2 different strawberry rakes put together (There will also be a non yatton Siphon G that fits the standard passenger formations)

[The Fatadder]

Cambrian:

C81 12ton 6 plank Open Wagon Kit, 9' wb wood underframe *2

C9 LMS 12 ton "All-steel" Van Kit 1

C57 12ton High-sided Goods Wagon Kit 1

C58 12ton High-sided Goods Wagon Kit 2

C80 12ton Wood Bodied Van Kit (Unventilated, "Wood ends") 1

C93 LMS 12ton One Plank Open Wagon Kit 1

C101 LMS 12ton Van Kit (Ventilated, "Steel ends") 1

C102 LMS 12ton Van Kit (Unventilated, "Steel ends") 1

Parkside:

 

LNER 12 Ton Van (Corrugated Ends) 1

LNER 12 Ton Goods Van (Diag. 94) 1

 

 

Cooper Craft

Dia. O4 Open A Wagon with William's Patent Sheet Rail 1

1003W - Dia. V5 Wooden Mink Van

1006W - Dia. 02 7 Plank Open Wagon, High Side & Sheet Rail

 

Bachmann

Bachmann UK 38-375 12 Ton ventilated van with planked ends LNER 1

Bachmann UK 38-083 12 Ton Southern 2+2 Planked Ventilated Van GWR Grey

Bachmann UK 37-730B 12 ton ventilated van in GWR dark grey.

Bachmann southern 2+2 Van in Southern brown

Mix of private owner wagons to distress

 

Which then leaves cattle boxes, I am guessing from its age that the Cooper Craft model would be too old to last to the late 40s? (or if it did it would be rare?) Hopefully the proposed Geen kit is more suitable... The weathered 3 pack looks tempting as an initial starting point to work from

[David C]

Coopercraft cattle wagon would not be too old. There are photos of dia W5 (the fitted version) in BR livery that have appeared in MRJ and Geoff Kent's books on wagons. The MRJ articles were by Martin Goodall (can't recall the issue numbers but they date back to the 1990s) who outlined the various diagrams and how they can be reproduced using the Coopercraft and Airfix kits. Most if not all is repeated in Geoff Kent's vol. 2.

 

The CC kit has the wrong roof profile - its should be lower - but this is easy to rectify.

 

David C

[Ravenser]

Fatadder

 

Looking in my Cheddar storage box, I currently have:

1 Conflat, 1 MOGO, 1 MACAW, all in GW along with more modern releases of a Charles Roberts slope sided steel mineral and a Charles Roberts 14t tank (both of which are Bachmann Collectors club editions that need repainting.) Are any of these of no use? (and need to be sold on)

My only other PO wagons are all based from around the Calne area, and I'd hazard a guess are of no use.

I also have a Foster Yeoman branded open, I'd assume there is no chance of it getting diverted

 

All of those should be fine. Weather the FY open to within an inch of it's life as unpainted wood and no-one will ever notice

 

Kit list looks fine , but I'd throw in the Ratio GW 5 plank - which is an inter war type

 

I'd also drop the Bachmann GW-lettered Southern van and replace it with a GW Iron Mink , if you can find the Ratio kit (I think a few lasted into the 50s and they are distinctively GW)

 

Some of the recent Bachmann LNER vans are obvious possibilities.

 

I strongly suspect fruit vans would be one thing that was non-pool. Mainline - I think - did a GW Fruit , though who got the moulds I don't remember.

 

The Brian Huxley article on cattle wagons is RM Aug 78, and the 2 parter on Opens is June/Aug 79. The Y10 Fuit was apparently a conversion of 130 W10 cattle wagons, done in 1939, and was modelled using the Airfix cattle wagon as abase for the body with a newish underframe. He seems to have cut away axleboxes + W irons from the Airfix kits and used the solebars with new running gear. A standard compensated etched W iron with suitable castings would seem the obvious way forward now

 

Geoff Kents 4mm Wagon Pts 1 and 2 is probably worth it just for the large number of excellent photos , and covers nearly all the types of wagons in question . Part 2 is almost twice as long as Part 1....

[Ravenser]

Ratio GW Mink and Mogo - two kits from my teens cleaned up and rebuilt a few years back for the Boxfile.

Also the old Hornby steel mineral cleaned up with Parkside chassis as a dia N32 Felix Pole mineral (the ex Airfix model is a rather finer rendition but I had this lying around in a box)


and an elderly second hand Cambrian kit off the club second-hand stand finished with acrylics after reading Craig Welsh's article:

 

[The Fatadder]

Well thats the Cooper Craft and Parkside ordered, and as soon as I receive my Amazon vouchers I will be buying the two 4mm Wagon books.

 

With these short wheelbase wagons, is it better to go for a complete new chassis (and the extra expense incorporated), or just to replace the W irons with Bill Bedford units? For the latter, what type of W Iron is needed?

 

Just found a Ratio GW ventilated van of some description that I built last year and then promptly forgot about. Will need to rebuild that to get a springie chassis as well...

[lonesome_whistle]

A wee word of warning regarding ordering those books from Amazon - the only examples listed on Amazon.co.uk are secondhand and are listed at a higher price than new copies which should still be available from specialist booksellers like Titfield Thunderbolt or Bill Hudson Books (I'm sure there are many others but these are two that I can recommend unreservedly from personal experience).

[craigwelsh]

With these short wheelbase wagons, is it better to go for a complete new chassis (and the extra expense incorporated), or just to replace the W irons with Bill Bedford units? For the latter, what type of W Iron is needed?..

Depends on what you want to achieve tbh. New levers and guides make the most visual difference imho and an etched vee gives the brake gear a bit of robustness.

 

Axleguards will be RCH 1923 in Bill's range although what's usually called the BR type did also appear on wagons after the war and before nationalisation.

[chrisf]

 

I would suggest Yatton as a possible brake van branding (without evidence), but Bristol Temple Meads is also possible/probable (and available on the HMRS sheet - as is Taunton another possibility).

 

As the freight services originated from Bristol West Depot I would suggest that as a branding for the Toad - or no specific depot at all?

 

Chris.