Toughest Place to be a Train Driver; BBC2 Feb.

[Glorious NSE]

Maybe also to increase ground clearance for the changes in gradient?

 

Yes that's also a likely possibility! (They were also smaller in length though, lots of empty space under those 6 axle machines!) Some US-based mining co. machines also had 'shallow' tanks for the same reason.

 

I did wonder though what happened to the first stalled train (they just seemed to leave it there)

 

It did give the impression they just walked off and left it there!

 

and whether after the second one they still only had a half load when they came down the gradient.

 

I suspect in the US they would call that 'doubling the hill' - they would split it - probably drop the first half on the nearest siding to clear up the main line in the shortest time, take the second half up to the top, then come back down to pick up the first half and put the train back together again at the top.

 

Not a fun thing to do half way up a mountainside, in a blizzard, with a long way still to go on a railway that seems to have no concept of a maximum shift length!?

[10800]

I'd be interested to know (Martyn or anyone) what these are - this is at Toquepala copper mine in Peru in 1995.

 

No.55 (with me!) I was told was a GEC UC-22*, which seemed right to me as I had a Rivarossi Burlington UC-25 once upon a time.

 

 

#54 is the same type, but I don't know what #28 is.

 

 

ISTR the UC-22s* were used then for the longer trips to Cuajone mine and the smelter at Ilo on the coast, and the smaller ones worked in the mine itself. Here is #27 taking a train from the primary crusher to the open pit.

 

 

 

 

The trains didn't go into the pit itself, but were loaded from hoppers that were filled from the electric trucks which worked in the pit. The train driver would get out and stand opposite the hopper with a remote control set and drive the train whilst controlling the opening and closing of the hoppers.

 

At this time there were questions over the economics of this operation and whether a conveyor system would be better, but looking at Google Earth (Minas de Toquepala, 17 14 42S, 70 36 50W) you can still see the railway and some trains.

 

This is #22, another type, down at the smelter shunting slag wagons

 

 

This was all 17 years ago (!) - looking at photos of this railway on the web now, they seem to use mainly GP40-3s.

 

 

* Edit:

(Memory not what it was - below, Martyn points out that they can't be UC-22s because they've only got 4 axles and so would be 'B'. Doh!)

[John M Upton]

27 and 28 definitely look like GM-EMD Geeps (GP series) whilst 22 has a definite look of an ALCO about it.

[Glorious NSE]

Hiya Rod - great pics!

 

My best guess with a little digging is #54/#55 are U23B (won't be have a C suffix/prefix as it's a 4 axle) - #27/#28 are GP38 and #22 looks to be a GP9 (or possibly a 7) with a nose job. Looks like they have a snazzy red scheme now and some of the U23Bs survive (the design will be a rarity in the US by now) - GP40s seem to be most of the fleet from these but there's a couple of SD70s on the roster.

http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?railroad=Southern%20Peru%20Copper%20Corporation

 

Can't think of any road in the US that would have had U23Bs and SD70s on their roster at the same time - let alone used them together, that's pretty cool.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=368916&nseq=14

 

 

Back to the OP and Railpictures has some cracking photography from the route in question at:

http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?railroad=FCCA (Ferrocaril Central Andino)

and more at:

http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?railroad=Ferrocarril Central del Peru

 

Looks like they have had some interesting stuff over the years...

[Porco Rosso]

"Railways of the Andes" by Brian Fawcett includes fascinating stories of what it was like running the line in steam days. events included a boxcar running loose down the line and hitting a Sentinel railcar coming up the grade so hard that both vehicles careered rapidly down the hill together, with serious casualties.

[Jon020]

Just managed sit and watch this with my boys.... catching up on i-player. No further comments to make; I and they enjoyed it.

[APOLLO]

I have a copy of the book Railways in the Andes - a very good book it is as well.

 

Just watched the programme on iplayer, interesting. This line featured in one of the original BBC Great Railway Journeys of the World form around 1980, I beleive the passenger services no longer run.

 

Here are some good you tube vids

 

 

 

One railroad I would love to ride.

 

Brit15

[Nickey Line]

Hi,

 

Sunday 12th February 9pm.

Noticed the trailer last night, tried the BBC website which has been revamped and improved so much I couldn't find it - only info on the first two in the current series.

Anyhoo, a web search resuled in the following on ASLEF's website - their news item with broadcast info here, and a two page pdf of their magazine article here.

 

Regards, Gerry

 

Thanks for providing the link to the article, that was very interesting. Two weeks to make an hour long programme!

Could (should) have been a mini-series?

[KingsCrossSuburban]

A fascinating programme; so good I’ve watched it twice!! It was interesting to see the Peruvian freight operation and what it takes to keep it running in a harsh environment. Credit must go to the people who built the line in the first place and those that run it today. Some of the scenery was amazing too. But it makes you realise just how remote a lot of the line is in many places and those bridges and cliff-side tracks were something else!! It was great to see a zig-zag/switch-back operation in regular use in the real world.

 

I thought Simon did really well having to adapt and work in a completely different environment to what he’s used to. Having to learn a different driving technique, with unfamiliar motive power on a line that you don’t know, in such a short space of time must take some doing. Having to communicate most of the time through an interpreter can’t be easy either.

 

The narrator mentioned that Simon had to learn how to use a system of 4 brakes. Out of interest, does anyone know what they are? (locomotive, train, dynamic, 1 other?).

 

Another aspect of the operation that interested me was the train control via radio links rather than signalling. Is that something that could be applied safely in the UK more to cut running costs, especially on lightly used branch lines; something more basic than the RETB used in Scotland?

 

Definitely one of the better railway programmes on TV. Thanks for the photos and video clips posted above.

[Glorious NSE]

It wasn't that clear what specific system was being used, but as there's a US influence then something similar to track warrant control (TWC) would be my guess: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_warrant

 

It's got a reasonable safety record (the railroads wouldn't use it if it were 'unsafe') - but it does rely almost entirely on traincrew understanding and complying with verbal instructions - the protection against mistakes in transcribing the warrant is that the crew would receive the message in a standard format, write it onto the form in that standard format then read it back in the same format to the dispatcher, and only when the dispatcher agrees they have it correct does it become a valid warrant.

 

The weak link is it does rely completely on the traincrew complying with the instructions though so to my mind not something i'd want to see in passenger use in the UK replacing any of the systems we currently use. (Whilst there is the capability for a dispatcher to make an error, that can be countered by using computer software to issue the warrants and ensure that no conflicting ones get issued)

 

Something as simple as drowsy traincrew running past the loop where they are meant to wait could result in a head-on crash for example - most railroads have also dropped the 'only valid after the arrival of______' line after that introduced mistakes by traincrew as well.

 

It's also a lot slower to work, before a train can move the dispatcher has to establish contact with the train, read out the track warrant for the crew to copy, the crew read out their copy, and then either confirm it's accuracy or start all over again...

 

Looking forward there is a move in the US to add 'positive train control' to all routes that have passenger or HAZMAT traffic, that seems to be in the form of an overlay using satnav technology to monitor train positions and prevent trains from advancing beyond their warrant - push into the future a couple of years and I could see that becoming a 'TPWS' type safety net to the otherwise verbal operations.

[plarailfan]

I was a bit surprised to see Bo-Bo locomotives here. I assumed everything would be six axles, but they all seemed to cope with the extreme gradients most of the time anyway.

The long shifts must surely grind the crews down, especially on days when things go wrong and they have to work into darkness, with no tasty, satisfying hot meal to tuck into when they finish. Just a few hours sleep and do it all again tomorrow - boy, I feel sorry for these guys.

[The Stationmaster]

Another aspect of the operation that interested me was the train control via radio links rather than signalling. Is that something that could be applied safely in the UK more to cut running costs, especially on lightly used branch lines; something more basic than the RETB used in Scotland?

As Glorious NSE has said it's basically a form of Track warrant control from what we saw of it (I do wonder if we actually saw all of the 'office end' and suspect that we didn't as I couldn't see a graph) and its use is hardly surprising on what is now a US owned railway with relatively sparse traffic.

 

A similar system is. of course, already used in Britain on the Ratty (Ravenglass & Eskdale Railway) where it is very professionally applied with generally pretty good radio discipline. Although I know that current equivalent of the HMRI are not entirely convinced about it the system has a good record. It was used by BR as a starting basis for a radio administered single line control system but that fairly rapidly turned into what ultimately became RETB with 'radio tokens' replacing verbal instructions.

 

At present I doubt if Track Warrant would be accepted by UK safety authorities although McNulty has talked about simplified signalling on rural lines (quite how you simplify what is often the square root of almost nothing has, however, not been explained).

[lonesome_whistle]

 

At present I doubt if Track Warrant would be accepted by UK safety authorities although McNulty has talked about simplified signalling on rural lines (quite how you simplify what is often the square root of almost nothing has, however, not been explained).

 

Still a lot better than that Table C2 working that was widely used on Western freight lines. The poor old signalman at Ystrad Mynach South with a peg board and some golf tees as an aide memoire. I recall one well-respected DI saying that he would personally defend any of his men were they involved in an incident whilst working this system at this particular location.

[Edwin_m]

The narrator mentioned that Simon had to learn how to use a system of 4 brakes. Out of interest, does anyone know what they are? (locomotive, train, dynamic, 1 other?).

 

Hand brake? Not presumably by the driver while on the move but we did see people turning brake wheels a few times.

 

Didn't notice any evidence of instructions being written down by the traincrew either.

[The Stationmaster]

Still a lot better than that Table C2 working that was widely used on Western freight lines. The poor old signalman at Ystrad Mynach South with a peg board and some golf tees as an aide memoire. I recall one well-respected DI saying that he would personally defend any of his men were they involved in an incident whilst working this system at this particular location.

Nothing at all wrong with C2 working and I never heard of a moan from the Signalmen at Ystrad Mynach South although adding the pegboard was very definitely a good idea back in the days when the branches were busy. When Trainload freight took over responsibility for a lot of the former WR branches they introduced Train Staff & Ticket to replace C2 being absolutely horrified at the system. Yet the strange thing, which they didn't seem interested in, was that there had never been a collision or nasty incident on any line worked by it that I have ever heard of and certainly not in the last 8 or 9 years of the Region's life.

 

The system was absolutely safe as long as it was worked properly by competent folk and on most lines where it was in operation speeds were very low (I will however exclude Nelson - Cwmbargoed from that because, notwithstanding the speed limit and Incline Instructions. trains coming down could reach some 'interesting' speeds - but it was always reckoned that if you were doing less than 40 mph through Bedlinog you would stop at the bottom, albeit with far more burning brake blocks than were to be seen on the tv programme the other night and with so much smoke from them you couldn't see back past the first wagon.

[melmerby]

I seem to remember reading that, years ago when these lines were converted to diesel traction that they found the replacement diesels were way down on power due to the thin air at high altitude. (Lack of turbos?) Steam locos don't suffer from this problem. As later diesels are turbo charged would this still be a problem, e.g. an increase the turbo rate to compensate for the thin air?

 

At least one of the locos in the programme could be seen to have English (i.e. American) on all the dials, controls, speedo (mph) etc belying it's ex US RR origin.

 

Keith

[The Stationmaster]

Hand brake? Not presumably by the driver while on the move but we did see people turning brake wheels a few times.

 

Didn't notice any evidence of instructions being written down by the traincrew either.

I doubt if the traincrew would be writing down instructions on that sort of railway - but you never know - and they did appear to be working over 'open' radio channels so everyone would know what others are being told.

 

And yes, they did seem to be applying wagon handbrakes judging by some of the shots plus they had a brake valve at the leading end of propelling moves which struck me as impressive as well as a necessity. Overall it is probably like any other difficult operational situation and the blokes involved are generally very careful - usually only being let down by mechanical failure rather than carelessness on their part. But it's like any other incline working situation - it depends very much on the skill and attention of the men doing the job.

[KingsCrossSuburban]

Thankyou to all of you who answered my questions. very interesting.

 

Cheers,

[lonesome_whistle]

Nothing at all wrong with C2 working and I never heard of a moan from the Signalmen at Ystrad Mynach South although adding the pegboard was very definitely a good idea back in the days when the branches were busy. When Trainload freight took over responsibility for a lot of the former WR branches they introduced Train Staff & Ticket to replace C2 being absolutely horrified at the system. Yet the strange thing, which they didn't seem interested in, was that there had never been a collision or nasty incident on any line worked by it that I have ever heard of and certainly not in the last 8 or 9 years of the Region's life.

 

The system was absolutely safe as long as it was worked properly by competent folk and on most lines where it was in operation speeds were very low (I will however exclude Nelson - Cwmbargoed from that because, notwithstanding the speed limit and Incline Instructions. trains coming down could reach some 'interesting' speeds - but it was always reckoned that if you were doing less than 40 mph through Bedlinog you would stop at the bottom, albeit with far more burning brake blocks than were to be seen on the tv programme the other night and with so much smoke from them you couldn't see back past the first wagon.

 

Perhaps the Ystrad Mynach signalmen moaned at someone else - I don't think many particularly relished the task of overseeing what was at one time a pretty complex operation. For those not familiar with the location, there were, as I recall, two end-on C2 sections, Ystrad Mynach - Nelson and Nelson to what was always known as 'Ocean'. It made for an interesting and challenging operation as there was also the train staff and ticket worked line from Nelson to Cwmbargoed (the staff being kept remotely by the YM signalman and not the man that operated Nelson groundframe under the instruction of the signalman) and a mid-section ground frame between Nelson and Ystrad Mynach used and operated by the crews of the shale trains that shuttled between 'Ocean' and Nelson Bog. The signalman also had to deal with the mainline Rhymney services and the coal trains on and off the Cylla branch so it's fair to say that he had his work cut out. It's also worth remembering that there was no radio communication between the signalman and the traincrews. I'm only a minion but I cannot help thinking that the main advantage to C2 working was its cost rather than any inherent 'safeness'.

[lonesome_whistle]

 

 

The narrator mentioned that Simon had to learn how to use a system of 4 brakes. Out of interest, does anyone know what they are? (locomotive, train, dynamic, 1 other?).

 

 

 

I'm guessing that they use something similar to US railroads so, and it's a bit of a longshot, the fourth 'system' could be considered to be an emergency brake application? Also, if they are using triple valves on the cars, then I would guess all those brakemen are employed to operate the retainer valves (which hold a minimum pressure in the brake cylinders when the driver's brake valve is in the release position). Given that North American systems don't allow for a graduated release of the train brakes and that it's quite possible for repeated brake applications to degrade the effectiveness of the train brake, then these guys really do have their work cut out. An overview of American train brakes and their operation can be found at http://www.railway-technical.com/brake2.shtml

[Edwin_m]

I was thinking "pissing away the air" was probably what happened in the fatal runaway they mentioned when the brakes "failed".

[The Stationmaster]

Perhaps the Ystrad Mynach signalmen moaned at someone else - I don't think many particularly relished the task of overseeing what was at one time a pretty complex operation. For those not familiar with the location, there were, as I recall, two end-on C2 sections, Ystrad Mynach - Nelson and Nelson to what was always known as 'Ocean'. It made for an interesting and challenging operation as there was also the train staff and ticket worked line from Nelson to Cwmbargoed (the staff being kept remotely by the YM signalman and not the man that operated Nelson groundframe under the instruction of the signalman) and a mid-section ground frame between Nelson and Ystrad Mynach used and operated by the crews of the shale trains that shuttled between 'Ocean' and Nelson Bog. The signalman also had to deal with the mainline Rhymney services and the coal trains on and off the Cylla branch so it's fair to say that he had his work cut out. It's also worth remembering that there was no radio communication between the signalman and the traincrews. I'm only a minion but I cannot help thinking that the main advantage to C2 working was its cost rather than any inherent 'safeness'.

 

There were originally three C2 sections controlled from Ystrad Mynach South (that to Cwmbargoed from Nelson also being C2. Communication was by telephone and if the 'phones failed the section beyond Nelson & Llancaiach were worked by a special Pilotman arrangement. No need really for radios - and that's assuming they would have worked up there back in those days and never any complaints I heard of from traincrews or anyone else about any lack of safety in C2 working - as I said above it had a good safety record. In fact in the early 1970s nearly 70 branches and (very) long sidings in South Wales (including those serving 3 oil refineries and most of the collieries and washeries plus an ordnance factory) were worked in accordance with Table C2 and no doubt as a result it did save a lot of operating costs - which might otherwise have jeopardised the future of some of the lines where it was in operation.

 

I'm quite sure that if those involved in working heavy trains (without continuous brakes in most cases) had any reason at all to doubt the safety of the system they would have been more than a little vociferous in voicing their views, but they didn't (and 'they' included some folk who were quite highly placed on the Staff Side of various bodies which regularly met management to discuss such things as methods of working and staffing.

[lonesome_whistle]

There were originally three C2 sections controlled from Ystrad Mynach South (that to Cwmbargoed from Nelson also being C2. Communication was by telephone and if the 'phones failed the section beyond Nelson & Llancaiach were worked by a special Pilotman arrangement.

 

 

Just as a matter of interest, why did staff & ticket replace C2 working between Nelson and Cwmbargoed given that it did increase the cost of running the branch (the Area Signalling Inspector called out often on a Saturday to ferry the staff back and fore when trains ran out of course)?

 

Apologies for dragging this topic way off topic..

[The Stationmaster]

Just as a matter of interest, why did staff & ticket replace C2 working between Nelson and Cwmbargoed given that it did increase the cost of running the branch (the Area Signalling Inspector called out often on a Saturday to ferry the staff back and fore when trains ran out of course)?

 

Apologies for dragging this topic way off topic..

I don't know - after my time down there. But when TLF took over in 1992 they converted many C2 lines to TS&T as they couldn't get their heads round C2 working - so it might be tied up with that?

 

The problem which leads to having to ferry staffs about seems a common one nowadays and I seriously wonder if some latterday folk understand how these systems should work and the need to watch the train pattern in order to keep the staff in the right place? I've recently come across something similar (from 'outside the fence') on a freight only line elsewhere on NR where train staff discipline is poor and some time back I came across (also from outside the fence) another NR example where 'No Signalman' token working was not only poorly managed but some of the NR Instructions were wrong. Perhaps all down to people not appreciating the sort of operational discipline which is need with such systems - at least C2 working used to make people think twice and keep good records.

[Happy Hippo]

 

The system was absolutely safe as long as it was worked properly by competent folk and on most lines where it was in operation speeds were very low (I will however exclude Nelson - Cwmbargoed from that because, notwithstanding the speed limit and Incline Instructions. trains coming down could reach some 'interesting' speeds - but it was always reckoned that if you were doing less than 40 mph through Bedlinog you would stop at the bottom, albeit with far more burning brake blocks than were to be seen on the tv programme the other night and with so much smoke from them you couldn't see back past the first wagon.

 

Mike,

 

As a precaution in steam days, there was a sign at the signal box at Llancaiach (Ffaldcaiach Sidings between Nelson and Bedlinog)) which ordered all down goods and mineral trains to stop dead.

 

I presume this would have been to allow the crew to unpin the brakes prior to joining the 'main' Vale of Neath line.

 

There was a water crane right next to the sign which I'm led to believe was used by the banking loco which would pick up the northbound trains here if they needed assistance up the hill.

 

Regards

 

Richard