RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 16, 2012 Mike, As a precaution in steam days, there was a sign at the signal box at Llancaiach (Ffaldcaiach Sidings between Nelson and Bedlinog)) which ordered all down goods and mineral trains to stop dead. I presume this would have been to allow the crew to unpin the brakes prior to joining the 'main' Vale of Neath line. Richard Richard, Alas I only passed through the place in steam days (enroute Quakers Yard HL to Pontypool Road, and back ) so didn't see much of it 'in the old days' but the purpose of the sign would have been twofold - firstly for the reason you mention (definitely not a good idea to start going through much in the way of pointwork with brakes pinned down) and secondly to make sure, hopefully, that the train was going slowly enough to stop clear of the station - yes, there signals to enforce that but even if they were off freights would have to stop and would (should) be running slowly enough to do so. The whole art of incline working in Britain (by which I mean on falling gradients), certainly in its GW form, was based on the premise that the loco was still pulling the train and that if the regulator was closed and the brake was applied on the loco then the train would stop. In practice it was often somewhat different and the loco would not be doing much pulling - but it, and the brakevan, should still be capable of stopping the train at any point on the gradient. The system started to go awry when diesels arrived and, generally, led to train sizes rising and thus loads increasing and thereby giving gravity a helping hand in accelerating the train - not aided by the fact that the handbrake on a diesel could not be used as a source of 'fine' braking in the way it could be a steam engine (although with a good Driver quite a lot of that braking finesses could be got through the straight air brake on the loco). Incidentally one advantage for the modeller of the South Wales Valleys in the steam era is that trainloads were often severely restricted by gravity, and not just going uphill, for example on the Cwm Bargoed - Nelson section descending trains were limited to a maximum of 15 x 10 ton wagons (or equivalent) in certain circumstances. Interesting subject and, as I think the tv programme showed, incline working does require some skill and a real 'feel' for the way a train is handling - and it can go wrong, resulting - at worst - in a runaway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonesome_whistle Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I don't know - after my time down there. But when TLF took over in 1992 they converted many C2 lines to TS&T as they couldn't get their heads round C2 working - so it might be tied up with that? TS&T was certainly in place in the first half of the eighties so any conversion from C2 must have been under the auspices of Western Region management for whatever reason. The problem which leads to having to ferry staffs about seems a common one nowadays and I seriously wonder if some latterday folk understand how these systems should work and the need to watch the train pattern in order to keep the staff in the right place? Well, my experience of this particular operation dates back the best part of three decades so I can't comment on what happens nowadays. I do remember Cwmbargoed having three MGRs sometimes on a Saturday morning and, with all the experience in the world, it would have been difficult to make the right decision every time. There was and is no place to easily recess an up train at Ystrad Mynach and trains often got delayed when being loaded at Cwmbargoed so the question of whether to send a train up with a ticket or the staff was a thorny one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted February 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 16, 2012 Sorry about this, but what is C2 working? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted February 16, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 16, 2012 Programme repeated tonight (Thurs) at 2320 on BBC2 Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 16, 2012 Sorry about this, but what is C2 working? No need to apologise - all sounds like secret codes doesn't it? All the BR Sectional Appendixes had a number of tables in them and they are identified by letters, for example Table A was the representation of principal running lines and showed the speeds, signal boxes, stations, type of signalling and so on. On the Western Region Table C1 showed lines worked under 'No Block' Regulations - which was quite rare on the Western although some other Regions used it a lot - and Table C2 covered 'Lines Worked Under The Control of Signalmen, Shunters etc and was quite heavily used on the Western Region mainly on single lines although a few were double and solely on freight only branches with relatively light traffic (in number of trains per day - there was a figure at which a line would be considered for a greater level of control but I don't know what it was although it was agreed with the Railway Inspectorate - HMRI). A C2 line was under the control of a nominated post - the most obvious being a Signalman although they were also under the control of Yard Foremen, Travelling Shunters etc in the places where there wasn't a Signalman conveniently available to control the section. The theory was very simple - no train was allowed to enter the section without the direct permission of whoever was in charge of it and usually trains were worked on the equivalent of an Absolute Block principle (i.e. only one train was allowed in the section at a time but some sections were permissive and a second train could be allowed to follow the first). As far as single line were concerned the principle was exactly the same as working by Pilotman except that the person in charge of the section was static at a fixed point and didn't accompany trains. In some cases entrance to the C2 section was controlled by an ordinary semaphore stop signal (if it was near a signalbox and the section was under the control of a Signalman) otherwise the section was protected by STOP boards. Usually authority to enter the section was given verbally. When a train arrived at the other end the traincrew informed the person in charge of the section by telephone and they had to get his permission to re-enter the section in order to return to the other end. Without doing a count the Western at one time had well over 100 lines worked by the C2 method. For single lines the next step up was probably Train Staff & Ticket working which was not over popular on the Region although when I was in South Wales in the early '70s it was introduced when our double track C2 branch was singled - but it was quite a busy line with as many as 4 or 5 trips each way in an 8 hour shift on some days. The only difference between TS&T and C2 on a single line was that the Driver was given a visible authority (in the shape of a Ticket or the Train Staff to enter the single line but otherwise in those cases where it was used on dead end branches there was still only the sole person in charge of its working, as was the case with C2. On a lightly used line with only a few trains per day C2 had the advantage of being economical - the only equipment it needed was a telephone circuit (which would probably be there anyway) and some STOP boards - and it had the other advantage of being solely under the control of one person who should have had no difficulty keeping track of trains. The difference with the Cwmbargoed and Ocean branches was that there were three sections under the control of the Signalman at Ystrad Mynach South so he had more things to keep track of so for that reason he was provided with a pegboard in, I think, 1971 or '72. But at that time there was normally only one train per turn up to Cwmbargoed, although occasionally a third during the day, and the Dowlais trip only ran all the way up about one or occasionally two days a week. Ocean was about the same but the lower section between Nelson and Ystrad Mynach was obviously busier as it had the trains from both branches and that was - so I was told - the reason why the pegboard was provided although I also understood that trains over that section were recorded in the Train Register although I can't be sure of that as it wasn't one of my 'boxes. Several other South Wales signalboxes had control of three C2 sections and one of them was as busy, if not busier at times, thatn the Ocean and Cwmbargoed workings. Hope that helps a bit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted February 17, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 mmmm guinea pigs, yum yum Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Wow, I got to see this tonight! What a cracking program, maybe there were some 'errors' but I don't know enough about real railway operation to comment on that! I thought the whole thing was well made, it was nice to see a little bit of the locals way of life and yes, I had a lump in my throat at the guy who tried to stand up for the welfare of the children in the smelter town. This kind of railway operation is why I love foreign railways - the pioneering spirit of the early British Railways (i.e. pre-group!) is still observable and folk over in these places have such a can-do attitude, it's really refreshing and exciting. Sorry but after observing just some of this in real life, I do find our own railways somewhat 'sterile'. (safer and hopefully, more profitable though!). Cheers, John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 On viewing it a second time I saw that the crew offered prayers to the Virgin before going on shift. Do we suppose it is the same Virgin as Mr Branson's? Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 17, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 17, 2012 ... after observing just some of this in real life, I do find our own railways somewhat 'sterile'. (safer and hopefully, more profitable though!). Cheers, John E. Spot on - nowadays we are looking at a very subdued and 'neutered' railway scene in Britain compared even with what was there in, just, in the 1980s and was still commonplace in the 1960s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Lambton58 Posted February 17, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2012 Spot on - nowadays we are looking at a very subdued and 'neutered' railway scene in Britain compared even with what was there in, just, in the 1980s and was still commonplace in the 1960s On the other hand working conditions, safety and welfare are infinitely better on UK railways - I hope! I caught up with this programme last night. Something of an eye opener and very inspiring. I think the Beeb have produced some good railway orientated documentaries recently. The series on the Indian hill railways was a delight. Ralph Lambton58 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 the line appeared in the 1980 series Great railway journeys of the world. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Programmes were made slightly differently back then... still an enjoyable watch though. Thanks for posting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Thank you for that link Michael. That is the only one of the first series I never managed to tape, so it was great to see it again' Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porco Rosso Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 We could do with repeats of those old ones - if anyone from the Beeb is reading.................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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