Gdaysydney Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Came across this photo http://paulbiggs.zenfolio.com/p724190698/h1515821e#h1515821e Not being familar with UK prototypes and rail protocol I was hoping someone could explain what is going on - surely the new rolling stock for the London tube doesn't need so many locos to move it - and what is the purpose of the "tank barriers" Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkea1 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Are the tanks in use as some kind of coupling adapter? And maybe the large number of locos is either a positioning move or to avoid a run-round on a reversal - although I'd have thought two 20's would do for that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2012 The tank cars are being used as coupling adaptors to allow mainline railway locos to be coupled to LUL type couplings. Presumably there were some surplus RTCs knocking about which the train operator or builder got at a knockdown price so they were the cheapest way of doing the job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catkins Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 The Tank cars are for coupling adaptors, and as bogie vehicles also help with brakeforce when the rake is being returned to Ashfordby (Leicestershire) without the new LUL trains. The use of two pairs of 20's is to avoid running round at Melton Mowbray and one other location that I can't remember now - but the trains travel up to London via the Midland Mainline. The trailing pair will not be supplying traction power during the move, and they might be shut down until they become the leading pair. Another reason to use class 20's is that some examples have been fitted with signalling tripcocks for use on the underground. The final reason for such a rake is due to the fact that the Old Dalby test track is privately owned (I forget who owns it now), and the contract to move the new LUL trains has been placed by London Underground Limited (LUL), and they will be controlling the purse-strings. A question for you all - Which group / company provides the class 20's? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete S Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 The reason for TWO class 20's at each end is for driver visibility issues. Two 20.s nose to nose can be driver only but one needs a seccond man if travelling sharp end first! Hope all has been revealed Cheers Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted February 11, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2012 I agree with the comments above. The tankers are the coupler adapters (and will still be able to couple with each other without the S-stock in between) and the locos are worked in pairs due to their relatively low power, limitations on DOO and the need to reverse the direction of travel. The train would run up the Midland Main Line to Cricklewood then via Brent Curve to Dudding Hill. From here the obvious route is via Acton Wells and Northolt to West Ruislip where the LU / NR connection is north of the station. This requires a reversal. Another option if signalling permits it would be to stop and reverse on the Acton Branch then taking the Neasden Curve and via Wembley Stadium to West Ruislip where a reversal is still required. Class 20s are familiar to some LU staff as they operate over LU metals on charters and other occasional workings and as has been noted above some have tripcock apparatus fitted for doing so. It is normal for LU stock to be marshalled between barrier vans or wagons when being worked over NR lines; this usually only occurs when delivered new, when removed for scrap plus a mid-life refurbishment. The same has been true for the life of the system thanks to different coupling and control arrangements. LT used to have a pair of ex-BR standard brake vans for the purpose which had LT couplers at one end and BR screw couplers at the other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted February 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2012 A question for you all - Which group / company provides the class 20's? GBRf provide the locos and traincrew for all moves on the national network. LUL traincrews join the train at Aylesbury on the delivery runs though actually take over at Amersham. Technically the National Rail/LUL boundary is just west of Amersham at Mantles Wood. The GBRf crews jump ship at Amersham and LUL crews who are passed on the 20's operate Amersham-Neasden. They also operate the run from Neasden to West Ruislip to get the locos and barriers to West Ruislip. At WR, GBRf crews take the locos and barriers to Peterborough or Derby depending on where they are needed next. The GBRf locos were poorly in January and had some overhaul work at Carlisle Kingmoor. During this pahse, 20.142/227/901/905 were hired in, but it was basically GBRf managed and crewed by GBRf/LUL as above. Maintenance (just A and B exams) on the hired locos was carried out by the owners of the locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted February 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2012 I agree with the comments above. The train would run up the Midland Main Line to Cricklewood then via Brent Curve to Dudding Hill. From here the obvious route is via Acton Wells and Northolt to West Ruislip where the LU / NR connection is north of the station. This requires a reversal. Another option if signalling permits it would be to stop and reverse on the Acton Branch then taking the Neasden Curve and via Wembley Stadium to West Ruislip where a reversal is still required. er this has never actually happened. All deliveries have been via Birmingham, Banbury, Princes Risborough (reverse), Aylesbury (reverse again). The intention was for deliveries (after the first few) to settle down and use the MML but acceptance has been so protracted they never got a path that way and have always used the tried and tested (albeit lengthy) path via West Midlands and Banbury, AFAIK they've shelved any ideas of using MML and to get delivery of the 190-ish sets back on target, for the next few weeks/months, alternate weeks will see 1 set and then 2 sets delivered continuing to use the same methodology. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted February 11, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2012 I had a post ready asking why the Aylebury change but that has been answered as I typed - thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted February 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2012 BTW the very first delivery was even more bizarre. Single Class 20 / open wagon / open wagon / tank wagon / S stock / tank wagon / open wagon / open wagon /single class 20. (I think the open wagons were code JNA?) The class 20's either end were for the reversals, loco+wagons for brake force as the S stock is effectively 'loose/unbraked' and the tank wagons have adapted couplings at one end to connect with the S stock. Although the 20's were technically capable of handling the load, due to the need to slot in amongst sprinter traffic around the West Midlands 2 either end were deemed to be needed for acceleration and indeed for insurance. Had one 20 failed with only one the other end, disruption could easily have ensued. By replacing the open wagons with additional 20's additional brake force was added at the same time as adding more oomph so all further deliveries were 2x20 both ends (except for a few occasions last summer when the 20's were poorly and they just had single 20 and same configuration as per the original delivery ie including the JNAs) (edited for spelling) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted February 11, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2012 Yes, they were JNA's. Similar formations of brakeforce runners/adapter wagons are used with Desiro deliveries from Germany as they are also "unbraked" - using Cargowaggons and intermodal flats among others. Following formation from the Bachmann Desiro thread: 66 - 4xVGA/VKA- modified VIA with 20ft Columbus Line container - 450 - modified VIA with 20ft Columbus Line container - 4xVGA/VKA Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWJ Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I read somewhere that the Class 20s, while operated by GBRf, still belong to DRS. Tank wagons may have been chosen as converter vehicles because they can be filled with water (or any other cheap substance) for maximum brake force, or it may be as Mike said that they just happened to be available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2012 I read somewhere that the Class 20s, while operated by GBRf, still belong to DRS. That is certainly what this Wiki (sorry) source says http://en.wikipedia....t_Rail_Services however here it is from the DRS horse's mouth (item headed 'DRS and GB Railfreight) http://www.directrai...-Autumn2010.pdf Another interesting thing I see from their website is that they sell 00 locos, in DRS livery of course, from 4 different manufacturers - definitely belief in multi-sourcing (just what our only state owned operator should be doing in my view - offering support all across the board ). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted February 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2012 I think if you want to customise a loco though, there's only one source of transfers/decals they've licensed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40044 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 It's technically a freight train, so the rear locos will also be acting as brake force vehicles (3 braked vehicles are required in rear of unbraked vehicles for freight trains). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catkins Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 It's technically a freight train, so the rear locos will also be acting as brake force vehicles (3 braked vehicles are required in rear of unbraked vehicles for freight trains). But how do the brakes operate on the rear vehicles, if the middle portion is unbraked, or unfitted? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 But how do the brakes operate on the rear vehicles, if the middle portion is unbraked, or unfitted? In the past, I've seen long, flexible. air-pipes connecting the front and rear portions of workings like this together. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted February 11, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2012 But how do the brakes operate on the rear vehicles, if the middle portion is unbraked, or unfitted? Through air pipes. Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gdaysydney Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 Thanks for the posts - I now understand and it all makes sense Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.