Camden Shed

[92220]

I’m now having a go at the 3 turnout and 2 diamond formation by the turntable.  It’s the entrance to the shed area in reality so it has to work effectively.

 

I decided to build it in copperclad, in contrast to the rest of the s&c on the layout which is all ply timbers and plastic chairs.  The reasoning was that, to maintain insulation gaps and to isolate each v and k effectively,  there are a lot of small pieces of rail through the diamonds, which are fully checkrailed.   When I built this for Camden Shed Mk1, some of those pieces were only secured by a small number of chairs, leaving open the greater possibility of movement and consequent unreliability.  So being able to solder each piece ought to make it easier to ensure that it works.  
 

I also wanted to lay the rail on top of some nickel silver shim, so that cosmetic chairs could be added once fully built.

 

I bought what I thought was enough 4mm timbering from C&L.  But it wasn’t quite.  Mistake number 1.  No matter - the timbers omitted are not pivotal and can be replaced by ply ones.

 

 

Now, the copperclad was 1mm which I thought would go with 1mm sleeper C&L track.   Mistake number 2.  It’s considerably less than 1mm and more suitably matched to old thin sleeper C&L flexi.

 

I’ve continued and I am building it gradually, but I’m half thinking that I’m heading down a pointless path and I should just start again with thicker copperclad, matched to the thicker flexible track and ply sleepers.  I’ve just got hold of some older 4mm copperclad timbering which is nominally 1.06 mm, and it is appreciably thicker than the new batch I have been using, and matches the rest of the layout.  In that lot also came some brass 3 bolt chairs, so I might discard this effort and start again.  
 

 

 

There is I, hope, some method to the madness of laying one rail all the way through the 2 diamonds to begin with. It was about creating a smooth gentle curve through both diamonds. I was planning to gauge everything off this before removing it and then laying the individual pieces for that side again, gauged from the opposite rail.  Anyway, the jury remains out.

 

Iain

 

 

[92220]

Interestingly, or perhaps not very interestingly at all …..

1mm thick new C&L copperclad is 0.95mm

Old C&L (1.06 nominally) 1.20mm 

 

Thin sleeper flexi 0.74mm

Thick sleeper flexi 1.45mm

 

I didn’t measure a thick ply timber but these are supposed to be 1.5mm 

 

Iain (mine of useless info)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1 by 92220

[LNER4479]

On 28/02/2024 at 20:58, 92220 said:

I’ve continued and I am building it gradually, but I’m half thinking that I’m heading down a pointless path and I should just start again with thicker copperclad, matched to the thicker flexible track and ply sleepers.  I’ve just got hold of some older 4mm copperclad timbering which is nominally 1.06 mm, and it is appreciably thicker than the new batch I have been using, and matches the rest of the layout.  In that lot also came some brass 3 bolt chairs, so I might discard this effort and start again.  

 

 

 

There is I, hope, some method to the madness of laying one rail all the way through the 2 diamonds to begin with. It was about creating a smooth gentle curve through both diamonds. I was planning to gauge everything off this before removing it and then laying the individual pieces for that side again, gauged from the opposite rail.  Anyway, the jury remains out.

 

Iain

 

 

It's beautiful work (as always) but, heartbreaking though it might sound, the correct decision in a situation like this is almost always to start again. Two associated thoughts:

1) If this is a pivotal piece of track, critical to the smooth operation of the shed, is it going to end up as an Achilles heel if you plough on?

2) If the layout is 'here to stay' then it's worth investing in it's future

 

It'll all make much more sense this morning now you've slept on it. And it'll take you less time to get to the same point (no pun intended) second time around.

[37Oban]

Hi,

 

I've built all sorts of turnout formations in both N an EM, including, in N, curved single slips and curved 3-way with a minimum radius of 8 inches!  Unfortunately I don't have any photos of these.

 

I enjoy building turnouts, but the have to be accurate to work well, and you have to be happy with their appearance or they'll annoy you to the point of madness!  The curved 3-way took, I think, 6 attempts, before I was happy with it.  I recently built a double slip in EM, which works okay, but I have a couple of niggles about it's appearance so, when I get the time, I'll either rebuild part of it, or maybe in it's entirety.

 

I thing I do is only use copperclad sleepers in the critical areas of the turnout, such as support for the crossing nose and associated wing rails, and  4, sometimes 5, timbers to which the blades are soldered and 1, maybe 2, either side of the tie bar and 1 at the end of each road to assist keeping gauge  and when laying with other track.  The rest of the timbers are wood strip.  As a rule, unless it's one of the critical areas, I only use 1 copperclad sleep in every 3 or 4 to maintain gauge. 

 

Also, I've never been too concerned about the thickness of the copperclad.  A thin shim of card or plasticard under the timbers in question can be inserted when the turnout is laid, and/or during construction, and this subterfuge is easily hidden when ballasted.  I have bought copperclad of a nominal thickness which was actually thinner, but worked around it as suggested.  After all, like everything else, copperclad is now an expensive commodity, so I try to waste as little as possible during construction.

 

Roja

[92220]

Thanks both.  I have been away at a conference the past two days and mulling things over in the evenings, I’d almost certainly decided to restart.  It’s actually very smooth-running through the bits of the formation that have 2 running rails 
 

On the expense front, it has got a lot more expensive to build your own track.  Copperclad is like bitcoin, and both rail and chairs mount up.  
 

I just calculated that I need around 1250-1300 L1 bridge chairs for the pits inside the shed.  Are there that many in existence?

 

Iain

[lezz01]

I cut my own from sheet with a guillotine. It's much cheaper that way.

Regards Lez. 

[92220]

Thanks Lez.  I am pretty close to finishing the trackwork now.   Only 4 simple turnouts plus this formation to go, and I have plenty of ply timbering left.  I think my simple turnouts are ok as built with ply and plastic chairs now.  I only used copperclad through the diamonds for the stability of soldering those very short pieces of rail needed to maintain electrical isolation through the crossings.

 

Once I realised the issue with thickness I thought I’d better use as much copperclad as I could through the turnouts too, and plug the gaps later.  Adding the n/s shim under the rail significantly complicates the process too.  I am using pieces slightly too large and then using the Dremel to remove the excess leaving space for chairs to be added.  If - or more likely when - I restart, I think I will use brass chairs on copperclad selectively through the turnouts, with ply timbers and plastic chairs between these.  Only through the checkrailed diamonds and where the rail pieces are so small will I need to use copperclad and shim.  I think, at least. 

 

I also noticed a problem with timbering through the second diamond.  I only have one timber between v and k crossings each side, but I need 2 to give a sensible look to the rail break.  Probably the timbering which interleaves from the first diamond and the two adjacent turnouts should be revisited too.  That seems now to be not as logical as it felt when I did the Templot plan.  
 

Iain

 

 

[lezz01]

I should really qualify that by saying that I don't really use copper clad for turnout construction preferring the ply and rivet method and using plastic chairs cosmetically. It's very old school I grant you but given that I've been making turnouts that way for nearly 40 years and that I'm currently 63 I have to put my hand up and say that I am indeed old school myself. 

Regards Lez. 

[92220]

A job that needed to be done was to add the off-scene trailing turnout on the down fast to allow access to the shed area from the NW, via the single line next to the Pembroke Castle pub.

 

i assume that this move was necessary for a banking engine that had to give assistance for longer than usual beyond the top of Camden Bank.  I imagine that this was more likely to be the up train engine banking ecs which was under the charge of a less powerful loco, often a Std 4mt or a 2-6-4 tank of various types.   But all that could be wrong. 

 

Down fast is at the bottom of this photo:

 

 

A Peco large radius right hand code 75 got the LNER4479 treatment to enable it to match the very gentle curve here, and also it needed to fit with the code 75 to code 100 change.  
 

 

After the Mr Nicholas jiggery pokery to enable the gentle curve, it was prepped as usual (remove the tiny wires connecting closure rail to common crossing, then electrically bond the stock rails to closure rails on each side.  Remove the spring, lay it, wire it, and then fit and wire the tortoise).  I chose the tortoise option as that will be the motor for all the scenic area, so the ease of wiring it was clear.

 

 

I also started hacking the board about to insert the inspection pits all through the shed:
 

I got further than the photo shows but didn’t take another. 

 

I had spent a little time thinking about the way to build these.  Peco inspection pits were used on mk1 Camden, heavily modified.  Briefly, the chairs were removed, carefully filed flat, and the holes filled.  Then they were marked out, and bullhead rail laid on L1 bridge chairs. These pits have all been recycled into Camden mk2, but are all used up with the ash pits and inspection pits outside the shed.  To buy and modify as many Peco pits as I need here would add significantly to the cost (I need 1300 chairs for the shed alone).  So I’ll just scratchbuild the pits from plastic.

 

Also, I almost certainly will not bother with the wheel drop in the servicing shop which is roads 6&7 from the mainlines.   

 

Iain

Edited March 4 by 92220

[dggar]

Quote:-

“ job that needed to be done was to add the off-scene trailing turnout on the down fast to allow access to the shed area from the NW, via the single line next to the Pembroke Castle pub.

 

I assume that this move was necessary for a banking engine that had to give assistance for longer than usual beyond the top of Camden Bank.  I imagine that this was more likely to be the up train engine banking ecs which was under the charge of a less powerful loco, often a Std 4mt or a 2-6-4 tank of various types.   But all that could be wrong. “

 

I have a schematic diagram of the layout controlled by Camden 2 signal box.

Together with Photos from the book Great British Railway Stations EUSTON of the area just beyond the road bridge towards the tunnel portals the trailing turn out would appear to allow access to Engine Line 1 and Engine Line 2.

 This would then give access to the Down and Up  Goods lines.

 

The bottom picture showing the 4F on an ECS movement should be labelled as on the Down Slow (not the Up Slow) . The Caprotti 4-6-0 44749 could have come off shed to back down to Camden Goods depot.

 

Very interesting to see the off scene layout beyond the road bridge.

[92220]

Thank you dggar, that’s very helpful as always.   I have the signalling diagrams for the southern end of the WCML but I hadn’t looked at them in detail for a while.  What you’ve written confirms access to the north end of the shed from the down lines via the through siding.  I can replicate those moves now.  What I hadn’t thought of was the access to Camden Goods.  But since that is represented by a comparatively minute facsimile on my model, I suspect a loco lift is the best option.

 

I have been thinking about signalling too but that is further down the priority list at the moment.

 

It’s fascinating how convoluted the railway evolved to be, both north of Camden Shed and also to the south beyond the steepest part of the bank.

 

Iain

 

 

[92220]

OK here we go.  Take 2.  

 

I redid the timbering and printed out a new set of Templot sheets:

 

 

I had a question about the timbering around the knuckle on the crossings.  I knew that unsupported rails as a principle were obviously a no-no. But I also had an idea that knuckles were also always supported.  So should I add timbering like this?

 

 

But that didn’t look possible, so I went with:

 

 

Copperclad at key locations, especially through the crossings where there would be short rail sections and checkrailing, enabled me to maintain gauge and clearances in these crucial areas.  
 

 

Copperclad tinned where needed.

 

I tend to annotate plans to help with speed of timbering and adding chairs to often lengthy stock rails.

 

The copperclad had a strip of card glued to the underside to bring it to the same thickness as the ply timbers.  
 

Build beginning:

 

Small pieces of brass strip were soldered to those copperclad timbers where rails would need to be soldered without brass chairs.

 

For all of the 16 small vees necessary through the checkrailed crossings, I printed out extra copies of the plans so I could construct those separately.  The rail pieces were hand filed and soldered to fret waste before cleaning up, which hopefully left me with vees of exactly the correct angles.  None of them were identical, with slight curvature through all three tracks in the formation.

 

 

Hoping all this makes sense - more to come…..

 

Iain

 

 

[92220]

The rest of it becomes hopefully a case of repetition.  Assuming we started in the right place!

 

 

 

 

 

Loosely placed, but beginning to look like it should.   
 

 

 

Iain