trisonic Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Some people just need spoon-feeding their entire lives, conversely others seem to thrive on providing spoon-feeding. Perhaps the "needy" are afraid of making mistakes? In any event they will always remain followers... Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Perhaps not just mistakes, but making anything. Same as finding your way round the site, you never know till you try, and its amazing what you find out on the way! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cary hill Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Some people just need spoon-feeding their entire lives, conversely others seem to thrive on providing spoon-feeding. Perhaps the "needy" are afraid of making mistakes? In any event they will always remain followers... Best, Pete. I find this post a hideous mean-spirited and insulting post, as I occasionally need spoon-feeding on some specific detail matters, and am also a "follower" most of time. I see, however, that it has "a tick from the top", so I must have missed the point where the forum changed from what I thought was a loose mutual support community to a self-help community. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted June 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 18, 2012 I find this post a hideous mean-spirited and insulting post, as I occasionally need spoon-feeding on some specific detail matters, and am also a "follower" most of time. I see, however, that it has "a tick from the top", so I must have missed the point where the forum changed from what I thought was a loose mutual support community to a self-help community. Let's not over dramatise, he's not saying those who genuinely need help are being spoon fed, he's saying those who can't be bothered to do anything for themselves are being spoon fed by others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I find this post a hideous mean-spirited and insulting post, as I occasionally need spoon-feeding on some specific detail matters, and am also a "follower" most of time. I see, however, that it has "a tick from the top", so I must have missed the point where the forum changed from what I thought was a loose mutual support community to a self-help community. Believe me; some of my emails where assistance is sought go substantially beyond being able to support some individual's needs to the point where I'm very close to asking if they kept the box the PC came in. Anyway; I don't mind helping folk where it's probable to possible they've had difficulty in finding info but there are some who find it easier to ask than seek. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted June 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 18, 2012 there are some who find it easier to ask than seek. Too true. I often see questions that I, knowing nothing about the subject under review, manage to answer in 2 minutes with a little Googlerie etc. Since almost all these people are younger than me (64 this year) I conclude that the instant gratification generation is taking over. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Thanks, Dave. You understood alright. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 ... one phrase that is more likely to get our hackles up (or scales in my case) is the opening line "I don't know if this has been posted before, but ..." This can often (but admittedly not always) be translated as "I suspect it has, but I can't be bothered to check first so I'll just go ahead and someone else can sort it out". Perhaps. Either that, or the search engine was monumentally unhelpful when they did a pre-posting search. Another option is to use the advance search - that cogwheel next to the search box. Don't be put off by all the dialogue boxes, you can usually get what you need by selecting the 'search titles only' option and by default you will then get a topic list. After all, previous relevant topics will of course have included the important keywords in the title (won't they?). The Search facility can at times be an impressively useless tool indeed. Put "Andy Y" into the search engine for the members forum, ... That part of the search engine simply needs disabling on here. The Google option needs to be the default - which I think it now is if you search unintelligently, but trying to guess the forum where your query's answer might lie, i.e trying to be helpful by reducing options, instead actually reduces the chances of a hit. I'd like to underscore Ian's point here. An advanced search on a British railway modelling website that won't permit someone to search for "GWR", "LNER" or "LMS" needs to be plan B. There's no reason to disable it, but it should only be used with the knowledge that you have to work around serious limitations. I think Google search can be part of the answer, ... But Google search is here and ready and it works fairly well (and it sometimes puzzles me why I can use it and find the answer to a question raised on here in a matter of minutes when someone else obviously couldn't - must be all about asking the right question I presume). Or perhaps a matter of using the right search engine. Be smart - one option is to use the Google search option (press that grey button that says 'Forums' and there is a dropdown list of options including Google). This will give a more comprehensive and intelligible list than the simple word in the search box. So I see a consensus here that until such time as the 'native' search engine on the forum can be improved beyond a simple word seach, Google might be the answer. I do have some questions on the Google option. Does the Google search engine report back our searches to the Googleplex (like they do at their main page)? I assume so. Google already knows a lot about me, so this is more of a curiousity than anything else. (Everything people say to Siri gets stored in a big database at Apple too.) Does the Google search look in wheeltappers? Based on results, I am assuming it does not. I recently used the following search. Admittedly the search was pointless here, but I know someone posted a link to a picture of HMAS Sydney in Wheeltappers very recently. Google did not find it, nor did it find a keyword I used when starting a thread last week. Of course Google results can be pretty outstanding too and found exactly what I wanted here as the first hit: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Surely it's better for someone to ask a question that has already been asked, and be pointed to a couple of useful threads relevant to the subject (which, let's face it, there may be several search terms they haven't thought of, or irrelevantly titled threads that someone remembers a picture that illustrates what they're looking for was in) than for them to be shot down for daring to ask - and to get the feeling they are stupid for not knowing and as a result decide not to come back and post any further? Some of those with the highest calibre of modelling ability may be complete numpties when it comes to computers - the simple fact that so many "cottage industries" within our hobby seem to not have as cheap and simple a thing as an online catalogue or photo gallery is surely proof of that? From my time as a mod on another forum some years ago, as well as 'keeping order' my role involved pointing people to previous discussions that may be relevant and being generally useful by providing "simple answers" time and time again. That seems to be the case on most forums I've used over the years. If those in the moderating team find what seems to be a generally accepted part of their role tiresome, then perhaps they need to think whether they ought to continue in that role. Most people when joining a new forum do so because they have a question that they feel posting on that forum will provide them with the answer they seek. We don't always want to spend a week getting to grips with all the forum functionality - that's human nature - we just want to find what seems to be the right place to ask, and post the question. Fighting for an hour with the search function trying to work out how it works isn't the top of most people's priorities. Sure, the search function needs some improvement - that's already being discussed here - but that's not the single solution to the issue raised. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Surely it's better for someone to ask a question that has already been asked In the case of a new member (the usual 'below 30' post count perhaps) I would certainly not wish to do anything to be seen as unwelcoming. It is sometimes difficult enough to get new members and lurkers to drum up the courage to post something as it is and to be kicked back simply because they did not search I think would be bad. On the other-hand for more established members ... they really should know better. There should also be some tolerance and more guidance. There is a diverse range of ages and levels of computer experience here and I do wonder how many know how to use Google at its best for example searching within a specific site. Sometimes the question can seem to be basic and dumb by the poster (I even think that of some of my questions) but I am always pretty confident that if I am asking then others out there may well be thinking the same. Perhaps a better solution would be a better and more intelligent approach by the software (I have seen it done) whereby the software submits the topic of a new post to Google and returns the results before the topic is submitted. Something like £Your question may have been answered in the following". In computing terms a relatively easy bit of code. But perhaps would save all of this headache? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 It depends on whether; 1 - I looked but could not find. 2 - I don't know where to look. 3 - I don't know how to look. 4 - I can't be bothered to look. 1, 2 and 3 deserve a positive response, 4 does not. Unfortunately the "just ask, don't think for yourself" attitude is increasingly common, not just on RMweb, but in all aspects of life. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 There's a question I'd like to ask but I don't know if I should now because a moderator may just decide that it's been asked before and bin it. I typed some general words into the search but I can't be specific as I'm not that sure what the problem actually is because if I did I wouldn't need to ask (it's to do with DCC) and I get 10 pages worth of answers returned in the search. So does this mean that I have to spend hours reading other people's questions that may not answer mine or even be relevant before I can post a question of my own now? Or can I ask it providing I don't start with "this may have been asked before but..." Do the moderators want proof that we've searched before asking? Do we need to provide urls for the pages we've visited before asking a question? It's crazy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted June 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 19, 2012 If those in the moderating team find what seems to be a generally accepted part of their role tiresome, then perhaps they need to think whether they ought to continue in that role. I do hope they don't think any such thing. The moderation on here is simply superb, and Mod 6's point is valid and well-made. Not every forum has so many members, so much life, so much data stored "somewhere". Whatever else we want to change, please let's leave the existing mods intact! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Not every forum has so many members, so much life, so much data stored "somewhere". You'll probably find quite a few forums are a lot larger... and if the current mods can't cope then the best answer is simply to recruit more, even if they are 'specialist mods' that only have a responsibility for a few particular sections due to their particular expertise in that area. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 There comes a time on many threads when some folks imagination runs away with them and they start to believe that all manner of strange things have been said. Surely it's better for someone to ask a question that has already been asked, and be pointed to a couple of useful threads relevant to the subject...than for them to be shot down for daring to ask... Is anyone really suggesting this? The OP and many subsequent posts have suggested little more than that folk should try to make some effort to help themselves. ...Most people when joining a new forum do so because they have a question that they feel posting on that forum will provide them with the answer they seek. We don't always want to spend a week getting to grips with all the forum functionality - that's human nature - we just want to find what seems to be the right place to ask, and post the question. Fighting for an hour with the search function trying to work out how it works isn't the top of most people's priorities... When I joined several years ago it was after several months of lurking, finding my way around and discovering that a high proportion of things I needed to know had been and were being discussed. To me, your "a week" and "an hour" are time usefully spent finding out about what you are getting into when joining the site. Anything else is just pandering to the "instant justification" mentality that others have rightly condemned. There's a question I'd like to ask but I don't know if I should now because a moderator may just decide that it's been asked before and bin it... Where did that idea come from? I don't think anyone is suggesting binning questions that have been asked before, just trying to minimise their number and how to respond appropriately. ...I typed some general words into the search but I can't be specific as I'm not that sure what the problem actually is because if I did I wouldn't need to ask (it's to do with DCC) and I get 10 pages worth of answers returned in the search. So does this mean that I have to spend hours reading other people's questions that may not answer mine or even be relevant before I can post a question of my own now? Or can I ask it providing I don't start with "this may have been asked before but..." It's not about spending "hours" on anything, just skimming few the first few pages found to see if there's an obvious answer. Heaven forbid that anyone should do a minimal amount of research! ...Do the moderators want proof that we've searched before asking? Do we need to provide urls for the pages we've visited before asking a question? It's crazy. The only crazy bit here, Dave, is your entirely unevidenced interpretation of what has been said. Yes, searching is a skill and even tools like the google search engine do not provide a complete solution. Unfortunately, those who don't bother trying are also those who are least likely to read and take in any guidance on how to help themselves. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 It's not about spending "hours" on anything, just skimming few the first few pages found to see if there's an obvious answer. Heaven forbid that anyone should do a minimal amount of research But is it always obvious where to look? Let's just say I want to find out the radius of the Peco O gauge points. Do I ask in "7mm+ modelling", trackwork, the Peco product area, as just three that spring to mind immediately. Before you ask, it's 6ft... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 But is it always obvious where to look?... No it isn't. That's why I said searching is a skill and google is not always a compete solution. How good is your choice of search terms? Do you try to narrow the search by selecting a particular forum area and risk the answer being elsewhere, or do you use a Google site search and risk a higher level of noise in the results? In some cases, neither will give you the result you are looking for so just go ahead and ask the question, perhaps noting that you've tried various searches but without results. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted June 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 19, 2012 But is it always obvious where to look? Let's just say I want to find out the radius of the Peco O gauge points. Do I ask in "7mm+ modelling", trackwork, the Peco product area, as just three that spring to mind immediately. Before you ask, it's 6ft... It is quite interesting to look at how other people search for information. I always liked listening to why my IT students did things in the way they did. For the Peco query I would have looked at the Peco site first rather than RMweb, (even though I thing RMweb is wonderful etc...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Is anyone really suggesting this? The OP and many subsequent posts have suggested little more than that folk should try to make some effort to help themselves. Future instances of "I don't know if ..." may, at our discretion, get locked or binned. I do prefer the term locked - though that has the result of increasing the number of useless search results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I do prefer the term locked - though that has the result of increasing the number of useless search results. Locking threads should be a last resort only when they have degenerated into unproductive arguments - because up until that point it may well have yielded useful results. Removing threads is pointless as it generally results in a 'where did my post go' post. Unnecessary use of both the above is, in my opinion, simply poor moderating. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod6 Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Jol seems to have the basic criteria right here: It depends on whether; 1 - I looked but could not find. 2 - I don't know where to look. 3 - I don't know how to look. 4 - I can't be bothered to look. 1, 2 and 3 deserve a positive response, 4 does not. And Nick (Buffalo) has kindly made the response I was also thinking about. Ruston and Cromptonnut, you seem to be letting your imaginations run riot and read all sorts of things into the OP and subsequent discussion that aren't there. Let me summarise: yes the search functions are not perfect and may require some effort to get the best out of them; nobody is going to get shot down for asking questions; we do our best to recognise the difference between 1/2/3, and 4 in Jol's list (this is the 'discretion' bit); part of this is to keep the forum as tidy as possible, i.e. not have the same questions and answers scattered all over the place; it is simple courtesy to make some effort to see if your question is already answered; experience shows that if questions are unnecessarily repeated too much then the willingness of members to provide answers (again) declines, especially if they are not credited for the original answer. So please let's not get this out of proportion, we're not talking rocket science here (and if we do it will be in Wheeltappers). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Does this forum software allow thread merging? That may be a better alternative than lock/bin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Hale Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I just started a thread asking for help to ascertain whether a certain Bachmann wagon was realistic before posting I carried out three consecutive searches using tank wagon, 37-680 and finally 14ton - none of which helped to any great extent. However I made the effort and started the thread - this should be the correct method of posting any query when asking for help? If, however, the thread is a repeat of a previous topic then it is not for lack of checking for related subjects, the problem might lie within the search engine? Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Does this forum software allow thread merging? That may be a better alternative than lock/bin. Yes, there have been several instances of thread merging in the past. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod6 Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Does this forum software allow thread merging? That may be a better alternative than lock/bin. Yes it does, and we use it where appropriate (and when the option is brought to our attention, we can't be all-seeing!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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