RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted February 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 27, 2012 By my reckoning there were thirty English and Welsh counties with GWR track in them, and there were thirty 10XX Counties. The choice of names would seem, then, to be a no-brainer. Yet the County of Flint which did (just) have GW track was omitted while the County of Leicester, which unless I have missed something had no GW track, was included. Has anybody any idea why? And does anybody feel that the form of the names was rather botched? The form "County of Oxford" always seems wrong to me. Surely "County of Oxfordshire" would sound better. Some pedant presumably thought that the latter form was tautological since "County" and "Shire" mean the same thing, but in counties whose names are not the same as their principal towns we are left with rather ugly bureaucratic abbreviations like "County of Hants" and "County of Berks" (the latter sounds like a deliberate insult to its inhabitants) - and surely the terminal "s" in those abbreviations stands for "Shire", so the tautology has crept in anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 GWR locos regularly worked to Leicester on NE/SW expresses. So a 'County of Leicester' would make for better PR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted February 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 27, 2012 And does anybody feel that the form of the names was rather botched? The form "County of Oxford" always seems wrong to me. Surely "County of Oxfordshire" would sound better. Some pedant presumably thought that the latter form was tautological since "County" and "Shire" mean the same thing, but in counties whose names are not the same as their principal towns we are left with rather ugly bureaucratic abbreviations like "County of Hants" and "County of Berks" (the latter sounds like a deliberate insult to its inhabitants) - and surely the terminal "s" in those abbreviations stands for "Shire", so the tautology has crept in anyway. Why? On the contrary as far as I'm concerned. As the "County" class of locomotives, it makes perfect sense to me to use the form "County of.." for the names. What about consistency? There's no "Cornwallshire" as Cornwall was a pre-exising Kingdom when counties were formed, so that has to be "County of Cornwall" or "Cornwall" and the latter on its would not have been so clearly linked to the County class name. Using your example, I'm sure the GWR would have known that "County of Oxfordshire" was tautological and so could not be used. And what's wrong with County of Hants and County of Berks? They're the abbreviations and have nothing to do with "-shire". And what about County of Salop, being the short form for Shropshire. Yes, language has to evolve but personally I object to the idea that only a pedant should oppose the form "County of Oxfordshire" and by implication that people should support the use of incorrect English. EDIT: Nothing personal - I just despair at the poor English usage that now seems to be accepted in schools and not marked down in exams. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted February 27, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 27, 2012 Yes, language has to evolve but personally I object to the idea that only a pedant should oppose the form "County of Oxfordshire" and by implication that people should support the use of incorrect English. Sorry! I shouldn't have used the word pedant. I didn't intend to offend anybody. My feeling is that loco names should uphold certain standards of dignity; and I think that abbreviations (while they have their place) detract from this. An analogy might be the use of "Xmas" for Christmas: it's OK in the window of a pound shop but wouldn't seem right in a prayer book. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingerbread Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I don't think there is a perfect solution - this sort of inconsistency is one of the characteristics of the English language. I find "County of Oxford" sounds just as natural as "County of Oxfordshire", and has the additional merits of being shorter avoiding tautology Personally I don't like the name "Salop" - apparently Salop and Shropshire were used interchangeably in earlier years, then in 1972 the County was officially renamed as "Salop", which was unpopular and changed to "Shropshire" in 1980. However "County of Salop" is a convenient name for these purposes, in line with the "Oxford" arguments above. Personally I would have preferred the rather more radical solution of omitting the "County of" from the "shire" names - so "Berkshire" instead of "County of Berks". Though this might have made the inconsistency more obvious. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium petethemole Posted February 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 27, 2012 "Hants" is a long standing abbreviation derived from the old name "Hantunscire", meaning County of Hantun/Hampton, now Southampton. Also known in the past as "County of Southampton", this may have been a more correct form, comparable to Oxford, However I suspect the GWR may still have been smarting at being blocked in their attempts to reach it. Unlike "County of Oxfordshire" however I think "County of Hampshire" would have been a less obvious tautology and a quite acceptable usage. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2012 County of Oxford is in fact the correct original name of the county and in any case 'Oxford' is not an abbreviation of 'Oxfordshire' - the official abbreviation and very long established is 'Oxon'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 King, Castle, Hall, Grange, Manor - they were all so straightforward! Hawksworth should have gone for Cathedrals or some other topographical feature for this class - or just simple place names a la West Country Pacifics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2012 King, Castle, Hall, Grange, Manor - they were all so straightforward! Hawksworth should have gone for Cathedrals or some other topographical feature for this class - or just simple place names a la West Country Pacifics. Place names were allegedly verboten for GW loco classes following the problems with 'lost' passengers which had arisen back in the days when various locos had carried place names. The Hawksworth 'Counties' were allegedly originally going to be named after, I think, cathedrals until something was leaked not long before they appeared and Hawksworth reputedly changed the class name to make those putting round the 'cathedral' (or whatever) story look stupid. That might well be some sort of apocryphal tale but equally there might be a grain of truth in it as the 'County' name was very much associated by enginemen with locos best forgotten - with both the Churchward 4-4-0 tender class and his 4-4-2T tank engines having a pretty lousy reputation (when well spoken of, what was said on other days is probably best not repeated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 'Salop' was used by railway staff at Llanelli to describe the train on Central Wales Line duties; fortunately, they didn't encounter many French passengers.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Place names were allegedly verboten for GW loco classes following the problems with 'lost' passengers which had arisen back in the days when various locos had carried place names. Ah yes, the 'Class 47 Haymarket' syndrome! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted February 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 27, 2012 Place names were allegedly verboten for GW loco classes following the problems with 'lost' passengers which had arisen back in the days when various locos had carried place names. The Hawksworth 'Counties' were allegedly originally going to be named after, I think, cathedrals until something was leaked not long before they appeared and Hawksworth reputedly changed the class name to make those putting round the 'cathedral' (or whatever) story look stupid. That might well be some sort of apocryphal tale but equally there might be a grain of truth in it as the 'County' name was very much associated by enginemen with locos best forgotten - with both the Churchward 4-4-0 tender class and his 4-4-2T tank engines having a pretty lousy reputation (when well spoken of, what was said on other days is probably best not repeated. Interesting if true, and I've no reason to doubt it. Odd then that place names should have been proposed for the Westerns. Surely the Western Region of BR would have wanted to perpetuate GWR traditions? Or was that why the names were changed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 27, 2012 Interesting if true, and I've no reason to doubt it. Odd then that place names should have been proposed for the Westerns. Surely the Western Region of BR would have wanted to perpetuate GWR traditions? Or was that why the names were changed? Maybe whoever came up with them didn't think that passengers would really believe the train was going to Cheddar Gorge? (but having come across many passengers in the years long before they became customers I can quite believe that at least a handful of them would indeed have though the train was going there - 'Can you tell me what time the 10.30 train leaves please?, '10.30 madam'. As lady reappears at office door about a minute later, and before she can open her mouth 'Platform 1 madam' They did indeed walk among us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 27, 2012 Personally I don't like the name "Salop" David Salop is derived from the original name of the town/county to which the present names have been corrupted. Salopesberia (Shrewsbury) and Salopescira (Shropshire) both in C12th. Before that Scrobbesbyrigscir in 1006 It just means "Shrewsburyshire" (with shrew pronounced shrow in earlier times and still by some today) County of Oxford is in fact the correct original name of the county and in any case 'Oxford' is not an abbreviation of 'Oxfordshire' - the official abbreviation and very long established is 'Oxon'. E.G. Oxenfordshire (Modern English rendition of Oxenafordscir, or similar from 1000 years ago) Keith Edit: more explanation on Salop. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Place names were allegedly verboten for GW loco classes following the problems with 'lost' passengers which had arisen back in the days when various locos had carried place names. The Hawksworth 'Counties' were allegedly originally going to be named after, I think, cathedrals until something was leaked not long before they appeared and Hawksworth reputedly changed the class name to make those putting round the 'cathedral' (or whatever) story look stupid. Not sure about the Counties originally being allocated Cathedral names, but IIRC the Kings were. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coppercap Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Not sure about the Counties originally being allocated Cathedral names, but IIRC the Kings were. I understand that when the B&O Railroad invited the GWR to send a locomotive over to take part in their centenary celebrations, the GWR then decided to name the nearly completed new locomotive 'King George V' (as he was the head of state) instead of after a Cathedral (which many Americans probably wouldn't have heard of anyway), for maximum publicity effect. And it worked. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Were there 30+ cathedral names that could have been used for either of these classes? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cary hill Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Were there 30+ cathedral names that could have been used for either of these classes? I don't think there are 30 "legitimate" cathedrals in regular GWR territory (around 20?), although "cheating" could be used as in "Leicester Cathedral" on the same basis as the "County" namings. On second thoughts "Leicester Cathedral" has only been "made up" since 1927, so perhaps it is not a candidate for an alternative "King" name anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 There are about 46 cathedrals in England & Wales, with about 16 in GWR 'territory', it could be interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coppercap Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 There were only 20 originally planned, 6000 to 6019, built between 1927 and 1928, so originally they could have had nearly sufficient GWR-area Cathedral names. Ten more were built in 1930, which would have neccessitated looking further afield for names. So Leicester Cathedral could have been a suitable name in 1930. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 So, 1025 Cathedral Bells, 1026 Cathedral Cloisters, 1027 Murder in the Cathedral ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Place names were allegedly verboten for GW loco classes following the problems with 'lost' passengers which had arisen back in the days when various locos had carried place names. ... ... (but having come across many passengers in the years long before they became customers I can quite believe that at least a handful of them would indeed have though the train was going there - I've no reason to doubt that, a tale from even my spotting days backs it up. We overheard a lady at York who was waiting for a stopping DMU north, having (presumably) declined the opportunity to go on the Peak hauled express that had left a few minutes earlier. "The man said it was going to Newcastle, but it said on the engine Lytham somewhere or other' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I make it 14 in England and 3 in wales which would allow for 3 'Director's Choices' the list :- Birmingham Bristol Chester Christ Church, Oxford Exeter Gloucester Hereford Salisbury Southwark St Paul's, London Truro Wells Winchester Worcester St David's Llandaff Brecon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 28, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 28, 2012 I make it 14 in England and 3 in wales which would allow for 3 'Director's Choices' the list :- Birmingham Bristol Chester Christ Church, Oxford Exeter Gloucester Hereford Salisbury Southwark St Paul's, London Truro Wells Winchester Worcester St David's Llandaff Brecon It depends if you name them after the Cathedrals or the towns wherein they reside! Several Cathedral Cities have more than one Cathedral. E.G. Westminster Cathedral (London), St Chad's (Birmingham) both RC Cathedrals where there is also an Anglican one. No doubt plenty of others. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 And there's me thinking that Swindon was prime Methodist territory.......... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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