1980s West Country Train Formations

[Flood]

You still got the occasional 33 turning up and according to loco hauled travel the 08.37 Wat-Exe, 12.20 Exe - Wat on a Saturday and the 16.38 Wat - Exe, 21.00 Exe - Salisbury on a week day were booked Class 33. I seem to remember the 16.38 being a pretty regular 33 diagram but on the day in question the 12.20 was a Class 50.

 

For the record here are the Wat - Exe rakes and locos:

 

5457, 5497, 5439, 6502, 17076, 17086, 5488, 5436, 5245 : 50046 1O14 12.20 Exeter - Waterloo

50010 : 5474, 5486, 5493, 17100, 17081, 6500, 5435, 5455, 5252 1O18 13.33 Exeter - Waterloo

50020 : 5248, 5456, 5341, 6504, 17069, 17121, 5487, 5467, 5451 1V11 11.10 Waterloo - Exeter

 

17121 was an Old Oak Common Mk2c BFK. I can't say I ever remember seeing anything other than Laira Mk2a or Mk2b BFKs on Wat - Exe rakes so they must have been a bit short of stock that week.

 

If anyone is really interested I've got all the HST rakes as well.

[Gwiwer]

according to loco hauled travel the 08.37 Wat-Exe, 12.20 Exe - Wat on a Saturday and the 16.38 Wat - Exe, 21.00 Exe - Salisbury on a week day were booked Class 33.

 

Correct. And done to retain traction knowledge among all men on the line as much as for any other reason.

 

The summer Saturdays dated additional Waterloo - Exeter and return (08.20 off Waterloo in most years) was also a booked 33 and until they were no longer available was actually rostered 33/1+8TC. When spare a second 33 was provided for a little extra oomph on the banks though 8TC was within the capability and permitted loading of a single engine.

 

WR men were not trained in push-pull working. The loco should always have been leading from Waterloo and run round at Exeter to also lead back. Coupling the high-level jumpers was OK however. On one occasion the train ran formed 33/0+33/1+8TC. That foxed them at St. Davids when they ran round!!!

[Commoner]

If anyone is really interested I've got all the HST rakes as well.

 

Yes I would be very interested Flood, especially if you recorded their workings. If deemed not suitable in the thread perhaps you can PM me.

 

Thanks

 

Commoner

[Tricky-CRS]

yes please to HST rakes through Camborne late 80s would be good.

[Flood]

Stock in bold were in executive livery, F shows the Buffet had been given a First Class yellow stripe and branding.

 

Derby (31/8/85)

43063, 41105, 41106, 40314F, 42211, 42212, 42213, 42214, 44067, 43067 07.30 Sheffield - St. Pancras

43099, 44024, 42074, 42073, 42072, 42325, 40345F, 41050, 41049, 43076 06.00 St. Pancras - Sheffield

43166, 44081, 42099, 42098, 42097, 42096, 40429, 41164, 43136 05.58 Bristol - Newcastle

43035, 41163, 40415, 42092, 42093, 42094, 42095, 44076, 43127 06.30 Bradford - Paignton

 

Bristol

43167, 44092, 41022, 40210, 42030, 42031, 42032, 44010, 43185 09.05 Paddington - Bristol

 

Exeter

43178, 41166, 40431, 42306, 42307, 42308, 42309, 44088, 43010 07.00 Newcastle - Paignton

43020, 44040, 42301, 42300, 42299, 40424, 41146, 41145, 43148 10.15 Padd - Penzance

43004, 41027, 41028, 40325, 42039, 42040, 42041, 44013, 43146 10.35 Penzance - Padd

43170, 44036, 42285, 42284, 42283, 40428, 41138, 41137, 43191 11.45 Padd - Penzance

43127, 44076, etc. 13.36 Paignton - Newcastle

43132, 41169, 40434, 42318, 42319, 42320, 42321, 44091, 43032 10.39 Manchester - Paignton

43169, 44031, 42265, 42264, 42263, 40435, 41128, 41127, 43025 13.15 Padd - Penzance

43175, 44001, 42005, 42004, 42003, 40209, 41004, 41003, 43137 12.33 Penzance - Padd

43010, 44088 etc. 15.25 Paignton - Newcastle

43027, 41029, 41030, 40326, 42042, 42043, 42044, 44014, 43028 13.46 Penzance - Padd

43032, 44091, etc. 17.30 Paignton - York

[Commoner]

Thanks Flood for posting the HST formations.

 

Interesting to see your recording of the sets and power cars in Executive livery. After the trial application to WR sets 028 and 030 in 1983, the re-painting of the entire HST didn't get underway until the beginning of 1985. In that year WR trailer sets 011-018 were all refurbished and finished in Executive livery. However, I recall that in 1986, sets that had C4 (light overhauls) at Litchurch Lane were outshopped in blue and grey and that this included sets 001-010. I think by the time they were next shopped in 1988, Swallow livery was applied.

 

Power cars were treated differently from the trailers however, and started to receive Executive livery on a fleet wide basis from the beginning of 1985. My notes record that by 24.04.86 the following WR power cars were in Executive livery...

 

43002/3/22-37, 43125-36/43-51/73-78/81/83-92.

 

 

Thanks

 

Commoner

[Flood]

I'm glad I made the livery notes at the time, it all adds to the historical interest. The Eastern Region TRFBs began to be renumbered to the 407xx series from September 1985 so it shows that some TRFBs still carried 403xx numbers for a while.

 

I noted the lack of one First, having been replaced by a TGS, on the set at Bristol. What I failed to notice was the set on the 05.58 Bristol - Newcastle until just now. This was one of two sets disbanded in order to increase the Western Region TRUB sets to 8 cars in May 1986.

[ess1uk]

You still got the occasional 33 turning up and according to loco hauled travel the 08.37 Wat-Exe, 12.20 Exe - Wat on a Saturday and the 16.38 Wat - Exe, 21.00 Exe - Salisbury on a week day were booked Class 33. I seem to remember the 16.38 being a pretty regular 33 diagram but on the day in question the 12.20 was a Class 50.For the record here are the Wat - Exe rakes and locos:5457, 5497, 5439, 6502, 17076, 17086, 5488, 5436, 5245 : 50046 1O14 12.20 Exeter - Waterloo50010 : 5474, 5486, 5493, 17100, 17081, 6500, 5435, 5455, 5252 1O18 13.33 Exeter - Waterloo50020 : 5248, 5456, 5341, 6504, 17069, 17121, 5487, 5467, 5451 1V11 11.10 Waterloo - Exeter 17121 was an Old Oak Common Mk2c BFK. I can't say I ever remember seeing anything other than Laira Mk2a or Mk2b BFKs on Wat - Exe rakes so they must have been a bit short of stock that week.If anyone is really interested I've got all the HST rakes as well.

Glad I just found this again as it saved me asking a question about depots and sharing diagrams!

Cheers Flood

[Shed]

You still got the occasional 33 turning up and according to loco hauled travel the 08.37 Wat-Exe, 12.20 Exe - Wat on a Saturday and the 16.38 Wat - Exe, 21.00 Exe - Salisbury on a week day were booked Class 33. I seem to remember the 16.38 being a pretty regular 33 diagram but on the day in question the 12.20 was a Class 50.For the record here are the Wat - Exe rakes and locos:5457, 5497, 5439, 6502, 17076, 17086, 5488, 5436, 5245 : 50046 1O14 12.20 Exeter - Waterloo50010 : 5474, 5486, 5493, 17100, 17081, 6500, 5435, 5455, 5252 1O18 13.33 Exeter - Waterloo50020 : 5248, 5456, 5341, 6504, 17069, 17121, 5487, 5467, 5451 1V11 11.10 Waterloo - Exeter 17121 was an Old Oak Common Mk2c BFK. I can't say I ever remember seeing anything other than Laira Mk2a or Mk2b BFKs on Wat - Exe rakes so they must have been a bit short of stock that week.

How often would a depot be short of stock and have to borrow a coach or 2 from another depot?

[Gwiwer]

Any "borrowing" would more commonly have been the hire of a complete rake rather than a "coach or two".   It might have happened that individual coaches were loaned between depots for a period of time to cover shortfalls but those normally have arrived at the "away" depot as part of a train and, to avoid any misunderstanding or confusion, would not been moved about in ones or twos out of service.

 

Let's take a theoretical example.  A WR Mk2 rake based at Plymouth Laira is short of a brake coach because one is undergoing repairs or extended maintenance over and above that normally programmed into the carriage working diagrams.  Old Oak Common can help out and attaches a vehicle which is spare there to the down overnight train from Paddington to Penzance and which is then removed at Plymouth.  The spare coach has offered extra seats on a revenue-earning service and has got where it's needed.  It works in the Exeter - Waterloo set quoted above for as long as is necessary.  It might even be permanently reallocated to Laira in due course.  Or it may find its way back to London once again probably attached to a revenue-earning service.

 

Rolling stock transfers have always been kept to the minimum because they involve additional costs and if moved as a special empty stock working they also require pathing and crewing.  That said it wasn't unknown for one depot to run a coach which was allocated to another for months or even years.  I don't know the details but each and every movement was supposed to be accounted for on paper and costs apportioned.  Some of the Mk1 coaches which ended up at Inverness remained allocated to depots in the NSE area for months after they moved north however.

[brushman47544]

But in the case of the W-E Mk2a/b rakes, where would LA borrow from? Weren't the OOC NSE rakes vacuum braked Mk1s?

 

I used to walk to Waterloo regularly at lunchtimes to see the 13.10 departure and the 33 for the 14.10 Salisbury (which I could get back from Woking after work if needed for haulage) and don't remember seeing NSE liveried Mk1s in the rakes. They were just short if a coach was defective. Don't forget the rakes had two BFKs, so if one was removed they could still run.

[Gwiwer]

My example was intended to be theoretical and I'm certainly no expert on the braking systems allocated by depot.  No NSE Mk1 ever worked the Waterloo - Exeters as far as I am aware though Mk2 stock certainly did.  Mk1 NSE stock did reach Exeter however - it was diagrammed on a Paddington - Penzance summer Saturday duty using an Oxford set.

[Flood]

No NSE Mk1 ever worked the Waterloo - Exeters as far as I am aware though Mk2 stock certainly did. 

Not strictly true as the Clapham Junction allocated Mk1 stock worked a daily Wat - Exe service until May 1987. The open seconds were blue and grey with NSE flashes and at least one BSK was in full NSE.

 

I take your point though, I don't recall any Mk1 stock from the Thames lines being used on Wat - Exe services.

 

 

Old Oak Common did have 16 Mk2a and Mk2b TSO coaches allocated to NWRA at the beginning of 1988, most of which were in full NSE livery. These seem to been the remnants of spare stock for IC services until sectorisation. As stated by brushman the Thames services were initially vacuum braked Mk1s and then additional sets of vacuum braked Mk2 stock were transferred from Cambridge after May 1987.

[Gwiwer]

 

 

I don't recall any Mk1 stock from the Thames lines being used on Wat - Exe services.

 

There was no overlap.  Neither was there any between Thames or LSWR and the LM Master Cobbler sets, also Mk1 stock which ended up in NSE colours.  Each route had its own captive fleet of coaching stock.

[ess1uk]

You still got the occasional 33 turning up and according to loco hauled travel the 08.37 Wat-Exe, 12.20 Exe - Wat on a Saturday and the 16.38 Wat - Exe, 21.00 Exe - Salisbury on a week day were booked Class 33. I seem to remember the 16.38 being a pretty regular 33 diagram but on the day in question the 12.20 was a Class 50.

 

For the record here are the Wat - Exe rakes and locos:

 

5457, 5497, 5439, 6502, 17076, 17086, 5488, 5436, 5245 : 50046 1O14 12.20 Exeter - Waterloo

50010 : 5474, 5486, 5493, 17100, 17081, 6500, 5435, 5455, 5252 1O18 13.33 Exeter - Waterloo

50020 : 5248, 5456, 5341, 6504, 17069, 17121, 5487, 5467, 5451 1V11 11.10 Waterloo - Exeter

 

17121 was an Old Oak Common Mk2c BFK. I can't say I ever remember seeing anything other than Laira Mk2a or Mk2b BFKs on Wat - Exe rakes so they must have been a bit short of stock that week.

1989 Platform 5 book lists 17121 as LA

 

Let's take a theoretical example.  A WR Mk2 rake based at Plymouth Laira is short of a brake coach because one is undergoing repairs or extended maintenance over and above that normally programmed into the carriage working diagrams.  Old Oak Common can help out and attaches a vehicle which is spare there to the down overnight train from Paddington to Penzance and which is then removed at Plymouth.  The spare coach has offered extra seats on a revenue-earning service and has got where it's needed.  It works in the Exeter - Waterloo set quoted above for as long as is necessary.  It might even be permanently reallocated to Laira in due course. 

looks like that may have happened

[Flood]

1989 Platform 5 book lists 17121 as LA

 

 

True but it didn't move there until May 1988 (and the notes were taken in August 1985). Between August 1985 and May 1988 it was reallocated to Manchester Longsight in May 1986 and then Euston Downside in May 1987.

[Gwiwer]

The coach might have actually moved long before the allocation was made on paper.  

[ess1uk]

True but it didn't move there until May 1988 (and the notes were taken in August 1985). Between August 1985 and May 1988 it was reallocated to Manchester Longsight in May 1986 and then Euston Downside in May 1987.

It got about a bit then.

[Shed]

Oh so I can use a coach without having to renumber it then!

It's on loan.