RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 17, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2012 I must admit I am genuinely puzzled by some of the comments about a 'price hike' - it is plain as a pikestaff that prices of imported goods using petroleum based material, plus other increasingly expensive materials plus rising labour costs added to our devalued currency and increasing transport costs, will result in higher prices. And moaning about it will not reduce those prices - that will only happen through the laws of supply and demand (i.e if it won't sell at a high price the price will be reduced to clear the stock) or if the market rejects the product it won't be manufactured. It is - I would have thought - also fairly obvious that steep discounting might not have much future in a situation where credit is tight, and possibly retail sales are falling, except perhaps in a business which pays very careful attention to its margins and managing pricing against demand. We might not like any of this but it hardly represents 'profiteering' by anybody and we have, I think, got to wake up to a new era which sees the end of low price toys from the Far East. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trains4U Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 With food prices, petrol prices,household energy prices and petrol/diesel prices all going up on a weekly basis, this couldn't have come at a worse time! Model toys that are now regularly sold at £100 plus will definately not be on my priority list. They must be Mad!! crikey, what to do? It's that rock and hard place again. There is an expectation by the consumer in terms of quailty and detail. That has a price. They could cut detail, but then would you be first in line to crucify them for it? For the oft-repeated reasons, costs of everything are going up. Your fuel and living costs are going up, so are those of the manufacturers, retailers and the people who they employ and must scrape a living. Do you think all the Bachmann employees are swanning around in new Jags laughing at you behind their backs? (Unlike perhaps the energy execs) There is never a "best" time for a price increase, but are they really mad? or simply facing reality? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted March 17, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2012 or simply facing reality? I certainly sympathise with this position, but the reality is that fuel, food, housing etc. are necessities which have to be bought no matter what. The Bachmann J11 is not. I don't know what the answer is, but certainly with the cost of fuel, parking, etc. I won't be making any unnecessary journeys to a model shop - whilst I can still afford something price has to be the major factor, so it's trawling the internet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trains4U Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I certainly sympathise with this position, but the reality is that fuel, food, housing etc. are necessities which have to be bought no matter what. The Bachmann J11 is not. And that is what I'm trying to convey, they are also realities for everyone in the development and supply chain. And if any one of them should collapse because they can no longer make a profit, there would be no J11 - at any price. I don't know what the answer is, but certainly with the cost of fuel, parking, etc. I won't be making any unnecessary journeys to a model shop - whilst I can still afford something price has to be the major factor, so it's trawling the internet. Or you can take your chances and wait 8 weeks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 A price rise thread relating to Hornby has sprung up on another forum: http://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37278&sid=605c7e8a6dbb987e59c9c75cb4ba9253 It's that time of year when manufacturers have to plan ahead and it means reviewing your costs and budgets against sales expectations and coming up with figures that will return a decent sum for your business to continue - happens in all manufacturing businesses. The fact is in this current climate we all have to adjust the cut of our cloth - I was on notice of redundancy in October, redundant last month, unemployed this - so at the moment I am not purchasing anything that is not for the benefit of the family or an absolute necessity (not even an A4!!). If people aren't spending or spending more carefully then it is going to affect supply and demand which impacts retailers especially if people go to the biggest discounters first - but imagine a discounting Tesco versus local retailer situation and then replace with a big discounting box shifter and a local shop. It's the local shop that always loses out, what Bachmann I believe are trying to do is maintain a decent supply chain and give those local shops a chance when it comes to new releases what is left after 8 weeks is a free for all as it is now. When I get a job again I will spend again just like I did before buying what I want when I can afford it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Prices, in the main, rise; a fact of life. Far-east workers now enjoy better working conditions and incomes; factories need to recruit and retain workers, pay their increasing energy costs etc and we just have to accept that. We don't have to buy everything; if we can't afford it we just have to consider alternatives or do without something else but as oldduders says it's not going to leave us dead. A sense of perspective is needed and at least the rises are consistent. This, after all, is a distinct issue from the OP. I wouldn't say any manufacturer is using price rises to increase their margins but to preserve their sustainability. If you're upset about those increases please consider the alternatives, it puts a little personal cost or inconvenience into perspective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyC Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 This arguement seems to have got back to the 'Models are too expensive' arguement we've had before. The fact is costs are up and Bachmann [or any other manufacturer] is there to make a profit. Far East costs such as wages are rising and really why should they accept poverty level wages just so we in the 'rich' [comparitively] West can have cheap goods? I might, like everybody, regret this but it could be that price levels are returning to reality. For years British Modellers have moaned about the quality, now we're getting the quality [though if you listen to some on this forum it's still not good enough] the moan is they're too expensive; well which do you want quality or low price, you can't have both. I would also point out compared to Continental models our's are still cheap. If people stop buying models in this country I doubt Bachmann will go bust, they'll shift their emphasis to those markets that remain profitable. A relative of mine works in the Scotch whisky industry for a company that makes a premium whisky. One of their top lines is now difficult to obtain in UK [to the extent he couldn't obtain any for a whisky tasting at a trade show] because the British market is too price conscious and they make more money selling it in the Middle and Far East. Now; can we get back to modelling? Jeremy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Western Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Ive just had an email from RoS contained within was the Class 350 Desiro in London Midland colours, it was £108 approx just before release not its £144 ! They stated due to Bachmann price increases. Considering Bachmann or their parent have seen increased profit etc, unlike Hornby why are they increasing their prices and forcing retailers to do the same? Great Western. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Hate to say 'I told you so'. About 12 months ago with the world economy as it is, and the shortages in raw material, I was saying ( along with many manufacturers, whom I was quoting) that we shouldn't be surprised if we see at least 50% price increases over the next 12 months. Ah well time for a reality check !?!? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Not my intention in any way to annihilate such places--far from it---but surely a seemingly aggressive and draconian price hike---is the proverbial sledgehammer and nut situation and the road to the law of diminished returns. I and many others like me have no access to such little jewels. I am reliant upon the web and visits to exhibitions. Believe it or not,my nearest reliable modelling shop---and I use the word carefully--is some 40 miles distant----'Rails'. Mmmmm, if only you knew. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doughnut Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 There is never a "best" time for a price increase, but are they really mad? or simply facing reality? I would imagine that traders, like the ones defending Bachmann et al, will have a good dose of ' facing reality' in the coming months, when they realise shoppers have been priced out and their over-inflated stock is still sat on the shelves! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trains4U Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 But the price isn't over inflated if it is reflective of the cost of manufacture. It's not the retailer's fault that prices are going up, but of course I am going to support a scheme that levels the playing field a little and ensures that a margin is made. There are and have been too many short-term deep cutting box shifters with unsound foundations that don't give two hoots about you or I and do nothing but destroy those businesses that have taken the time and effort to invest in the resource that is the model shop. In any case, The reality is that spending overall has stayed pretty level - it's big ticket items that are selling more slowly. We just order less of those, and more of the things that are likely to sell, in the knowledge that we will almost certainly be able to get more of the big ticket items later, if we need to. That spend is now going on other things, like track and scenics, that carry a higher margin than locos and actually improves our profitability overall. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 What I cant understand is when times were good there were few significant new models manufactured, but now in the middle of a recession it seems like there is a new one announced every week. I would have thought it would have been the other way round or is it a question of each new announcement trying to grab what little spare money is out there to try and stay afloat? I certainly wouldnt want to be a manufacturer in the current financial climate! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I would imagine that traders, like the ones defending Bachmann et al, will have a good dose of ' facing reality' in the coming months, when they realise shoppers have been priced out and their over-inflated stock is still sat on the shelves! You really are way off the "reality" mark if you think prices are over-inflated, the TRUE costs of models (and anything else manufactured in China) have spiralled upwards lately and there is nothing that can be done about it, if you dont like the new prices then dont buy the models, or wait and see what discounts are available a couple of months down the line if there are any models left, if they are all sold then obviously enough buyers thought the model was worth the money and paid up, and yes I have been caught out by waiting. Or would you prefer Bachmann et-al to still sell models at £30 each (Lima, remember them) but go bust in a couple of months? The manufacturers are in business to make money (as are the dealers) so HAVE to sell at a profit (even a small one) to survive, do you honestly think that they want to destroy the buyer market? Dont you think it would be counter-productive in the long run? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Western Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I was planning on ordering at least four new locomotives over the coming months from the Bachmann 2012-13 program but that has now bit the bullet due to these prices rises. Back to Ebay I think. The price of raw materials, labour costs, shipping cost, tooling costs etc ok are many thousands of pounds but at the end of the day the actual model is a lump of plastic with some electric's inside. Which we are expected to pay upwards of £100 for, if you are a rich man (its getting this way) and you want sound then your looking at £200+. I have three kids and the attached costs of to keep my wages occupied, my hobby is way down the list of things I can spend my money on. Im finding it more and more differcult to justify spending over £90 on a model locomotive. Even small four wheeled wagons are now around the £10 mark!, not so long ago they were £5-6. In regards to these price increases, what about the people who have ordered these models months ago and have the 'price promise' from retailers is that price still valid or are they going to have to pay the increased price? Bachmann and all are now producing very small batches, you either buy at the full price when they come out or face months and months of waiting. Or face never getting hold of the model as you run out of patience waiting for the next batch to be delivered. I dont think Bachmann should be saying to shop you have to sell this product at this price or no cheaper than this for some many months or we will delay future orders, cancel accounts. That is blackmail as far as I can see. If a shop wants to sell a £100 model at £10 then thats stupid but they should be able to if they want to. Great Western. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trains4U Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 This is a lump of plastic with some electrics in it A Bachmann loco is, in the main, a very detailed scale representation consisting of scores of components, many individually designed and cast/moulded in metal and plastic. combined with the limited appeal of the item in question, they are bound to be expensive. Take a look around at other hobbies. I wonder how much more expensive Golf is compared to 5 years ago? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted March 17, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 17, 2012 This all makes me wonder what I would/will do if I get the Terrier off the ground and into production. I think I'll stick to producing a fixed amount and allocating it to retailers (should they even want it) on an equal numbers basis. God knows what the cost of it is likely to be though. Based on even the most conservative of ideas, it's going to be over £100 each, and could be nearer £150! Mind you, I intend it to be closer to what could be termed 'finescale' OO rather than general OO, so hopefully it will be worth it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 17, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2012 I was planning on ordering at least four new locomotives over the coming months from the Bachmann 2012-13 program but that has now bit the bullet due to these prices rises. Back to Ebay I think. The price of raw materials, labour costs, shipping cost, tooling costs etc ok are many thousands of pounds but at the end of the day the actual model is a lump of plastic with some electric's inside. Which we are expected to pay upwards of £100 for, if you are a rich man (its getting this way) and you want sound then your looking at £200+. I have three kids and the attached costs of to keep my wages occupied, my hobby is way down the list of things I can spend my money on. Im finding it more and more differcult to justify spending over £90 on a model locomotive. Even small four wheeled wagons are now around the £10 mark!, not so long ago they were £5-6. In regards to these price increases, what about the people who have ordered these models months ago and have the 'price promise' from retailers is that price still valid or are they going to have to pay the increased price? Bachmann and all are now producing very small batches, you either buy at the full price when they come out or face months and months of waiting. Or face never getting hold of the model as you run out of patience waiting for the next batch to be delivered. I dont think Bachmann should be saying to shop you have to sell this product at this price or no cheaper than this for some many months or we will delay future orders, cancel accounts. That is blackmail as far as I can see. If a shop wants to sell a £100 model at £10 then thats stupid but they should be able to if they want to. Great Western. But what's so new about any of this? Once upon a time I had two small children and for a few years was the sole wage earner in our house paying for everything from clothes via food to the mortgage - my hobby expenditure barely reached double figures on a quarterly basis and the only shows I went to were those that didn't involve taking the car for more than 10 miles or so. Oh, and most of what LIma made didn't interest me so even in a much smaller market I had very limited choice anyway, and I missed out on things that I couldn't afford. But that was life, and after all it was only a hobby. Circumstances for many of us change - the children grow up, some even leave home (not that ours have), and our financial situation changes as do our spending patterns and the things which are there to spend money on. Modellers still have a choice of reasonably priced smaller locos and stock and a smaller layout need not be too expensive if the expenditure is spread - provided of course that you have the disposable income in the first place, and taht is something which has never been guaranteed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NINJA Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 At least with Bachmann up to now we have enjoyed good models at reasonable prices compared with other manufacturers, does the old saying count now, all good things must come to an end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted March 17, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 17, 2012 I wonder are there any other businesses around where people are actually defending price rises of 12.5%? Can't see it somehow... Very strange. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Western Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 If Bachmann were losing money then I wouldnt mind paying more, if it kept them going. But as it is they are making more money this year than last arent they? Like someone else has said if you dont like it, dont buy it. I will be falling into the latter group this year at least. Great Western. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Ive just had an email from RoS contained within was the Class 350 Desiro in London Midland colours, it was £108 approx just before release not its £144 ! They stated due to Bachmann price increases. Considering Bachmann or their parent have seen increased profit etc, unlike Hornby why are they increasing their prices and forcing retailers to do the same? Great Western. Because they can? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 This is a lump of plastic with some electrics in it A Bachmann loco is, in the main, a very detailed scale representation consisting of scores of components, many individually designed and cast/moulded in metal and plastic. combined with the limited appeal of the item in question, they are bound to be expensive. Take a look around at other hobbies. I wonder how much more expensive Golf is compared to 5 years ago? It isn't. I don't need new clubs and the cost of green fees is about the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Mind you, I intend it to be closer to what could be termed 'finescale' OO rather than general OO, so hopefully it will be worth it. Isn't that an oxymoron? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
47164 Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Amazing how this thread has evolved, at the end the day Bachmann has for sometime now provided the 00 scale world with the best range and value for its products ,and given the current climate price rises were due , and we need to face.up to that as a fact of life, i oftern wonder what our european friends in the HO world think of our compatative low prices... probally with great envy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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