Verityboo Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I really don't understand how this is going to improve relations with customers - if anything it will make them more determined to shop round for a bargain. And please don't tell me that every high street model shop is a mine of helpfulness, information and customer service, because they're not. It might be alright for those with higher incomes who can afford to introduce a degree of altruism into their purchases, but there are a hell of a lot of people who can't afford to do that. I fully agree. Even if model shops are not queuing up to compain to the OFT, a few modellers might? The fine for breaching the anti-competition laws is up to 10% of group global turnover so they would do well to reconsider Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Didn't Dapol try something like this in the '90's, but gave up, after a short while, as it was too difficult to keep a check on retailers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Nail on the head there Ian. That's pretty much my take on things as well and Mike here often gets the benefit when I go in looking for a couple of tins of paint and walk out with a couple of second hand Bachmann Mk1s which crept into the 'used' corner! There's no one else in town supplying the little bits like cement, wire and paint so it's in all our interests to support the local boys. Without discussing further many of the points here - outside my knowledge sphere for the most part - Bachmann appear at least to be recognising the importance of their local dealer network and acting accordingly. That's my not very well informed perception anyway. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TREVOR1960 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 In the case of the latest 'Desiro' (31-031) to be released, it has been supplied out of Bachmann after a recent price increase across the range, so hence the higher price. This individual price increase has nothing to do with the content of the retailers letter. The RRP for a Desiro was £149.95. Now it is £189.95 Strange 12.5% increase Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 16, 2012 The fine for breaching the anti-competition laws is up to 10% of group global turnover so they would do well to reconsider There is nothing anti-competitive about a single supplier marking the cards of his retailers. Anti-competitive implies Bachmann, Hornby and Heljan have had a pow-wow and agreed to raise prices of something to a common figure. No evidence of this. This thread is one of the oddest I can recall! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I fully agree. Even if model shops are not queuing up to compain to the OFT, a few modellers might? The fine for breaching the anti-competition laws is up to 10% of group global turnover so they would do well to reconsider You seem to be quite strident in your statements but are you qualified to make these assertions about legalities? If not it may be wise to rein the categoric statements in a bit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmthtrains - David Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I love how any third-hand report of a potentially controversial tactic by any business is immediately greeted with every armchair expert rushing off to consult wikipedia, ready to spout snippets of laws to condemn the outrage as illegal. This usually happens on newspaper websites, but alas, has spread to RMweb it seems. This is a very common request from suppliers to their retail customers when they occupy the 'higher end' of their particular market. I was at a meeting with the world's largest toy brand yesterday, and the same issue was discussed - an approach I fully support as a retailer and a customer. The public seem to think anyone selling anything at recommended retail price is ripping them off, so prevalent has discounting become. A retailer's costs remain the same however when they discount, so they are giving away their profits (outside of complex, supplier funded discounting mechanisms, which certainly won't apply in the hobby except when unsold items are reduced at cost price to clear them out), meaning every retailer needs to get away with discounting as little as they can to stay in business, and will be more than happy if a supplier frowns on discounting their stock across the marketplace. So why do firms like Bachmann frown on discounting? Because it devalues their brand. They have a clear view of where their brand sits in the market, and how price sensitive it is. If they see retailers starting to creep in discounting, it risks moving their brand into a playing field they do not want to share. For example, if Harrods started price matching Tesco, what do you think would happen to people's perception of Harrods' brand? Cartier earrings at half price? Does Tesco sell Apple sell Ipads at 25% off? Bottom line is this is their brand, and are rightly protective of it. Their focus is on quality, and quality brands sell on their attributes, not because they are cheap. At the end of the day, if someone thinks they are expensive, don't buy them. If enough people don't buy them, they will lower the quality to get a lower price point, and people will then moan that they quality isn't as good. There is nothing underhand going on here - Bachmann should be congratulated for taking such care of their brand (and their models), and by encouraging a level playing field that supports independent model shops. If more manufacturers in retail took more care of their brand, we wouldn't be in this death spiral of discounting that is killing the high street. Does everything have to just be cheap these days? Why can't we simply learn to appreciate quality, then save up until we can afford it. The satisfaction is far greater than this constant 'must have it now' affliction that has the world gripped. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted March 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 16, 2012 Does anybody know (definitively) if this happens abroad, particularly in the US or is it just in the good old UK? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I fully agree. Even if model shops are not queuing up to compain to the OFT, a few modellers might? The fine for breaching the anti-competition laws is up to 10% of group global turnover so they would do well to reconsider This is not cartel pricing . There is no agreement between competitors to fix price levels. It may or may not be retail price maintenance but that's something quite different Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I thought we lived in a free market in the UK that said we can all see what the Supermarkets have done to the small shopkeeper. The potential fly in the ointment is if Bachmann or any other manufacturers offers discounts for large orders in which case this action is somewhat hypocritical. XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted March 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 16, 2012 Why can't we simply learn to appreciate quality, then save up until we can afford it. The satisfaction is far greater than this constant 'must have it now' affliction that has the world gripped. because, in the case of popular models, they've usually sold out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 16, 2012 because, in the case of popular models, they've usually sold out. Precisely why Bachmann have a duty to their owners to squeeze as much out of the brand and its name as possible - their mousetrap is perceived to be better. They seem unlikely to get a penny more as a direct result of this alleged instruction, but will actually be helping the retailers to increase their own margins with the "must have" items that are in limited supply. That may keep marginal retailers in business, improving Bachmann's sales penetration. As has already been suggested, the net effect may actually help the market become healthier, and promote Bachmann products as quality rather than quantity items. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 . The potential fly in the ointment is if Bachmann or any other manufacturers offers discounts for large orders in which case this action is somewhat hypocritical. Does this cover the 'if', Nigel? Bachmann have steadily supported a retailer network through ... charging the same price across the board irrespective of volume (discounts are applicable for early settlement of accounts). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Does this cover the 'if', Nigel? Missed that one fair point ! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted March 16, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 16, 2012 I tend to sit 'on the fence' with this issue, my pointing out of legal matters is intended only to highlight what may be an illegal practice. I also feel (as I mentioned in a previous post in this thread) that there are other ways for Bachmann to help the smaller, more traditional model railway shops. But, this has raised a Devil's Advocate question in me: Is it Bachmann's (or any model railway item supplier's) job to prop up these smaller shops? The irony (if it can be termed irony) is that the legislation that Bachmann may be falling foul of exists to prevent distortion of markets by manufacturers, however there are some markets that if the legislation is applied fully, can actually be seriously damaged by it - the model railway industry may be one. To illustrate that, I'll cover a different but related, and somewhat arguable issue. It has been mentioned before that it would be illegal for the major manufacturers to confer on what models to produce each year to avoid wasteful duplication. Taken to the nth degree, if too many of those manufacturers make the 'exact' same models they each see their profits reduced. If such activity continues for too long then one or more of them goes out of business leaving us the consumer with LESS choice, not more as there would be fewer manufacturers to cover the different classes of vehicles that we want to buy. For us, as consumers, we would arguably benefit from a conference between the manufacturers to divy up the classes so that duplication could be avoided. However, it would be such a structured arrangement that it would be unpalatable to the EU and UK governments despite being in the consumer's interest. Sorry for going a bit OT. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 But, this has raised a Devil's Advocate question in me: Is it Bachmann's (or any model railway item supplier's) job to prop up these smaller shops? I dont think anybody would suggest it's their obligation, but there's a fair consensus that suggests it's in their interests, and it seems that they think that too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 As a former retailer I agree with 'bmthtrains-david', it is with a cynical smile that I wonder why Bachmann are doing this. If it's to some how aid the retail trade, it's a bit late given their past supplying track record, a sentiment that only long-standing retailers will understand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyC Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 ......... Does Tesco sell Apple sell Ipads at 25% off?......... David Certainly not, their discount was much larger Jeremy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunshine coast Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 If the trade letter in question was read properly....it would be understood that Bachmann are not attempting to price fix the Recommended Retail Selling Price ....... they are saying that to discount more than 15% in their opinion ...can lead to businesses becoming unstable and unable to give the kind of backup and presentation of their products that they wish to see, it is still up to the retailer whether he sells at full RRSP or discounts ...or even charges more than RRSP .... It is not a case of just propping up some of the smaller shops ...it is also trying to make sure some of the bigger ones don't wobble either ... Regards Trevor .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TomE Posted March 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 16, 2012 Tesco's iPad faux pas aside, Apple seem to enforce a similar level of control over the price of their products sold by other retailers to what Bachmann are proposing. It's very difficult to find an iPad/Pod/Phone for anything more than a few pounds less than the price that Apple sell them at in their own stores or online. Perhaps someone at Barwell has been reading Steve Jobs autobiography! Tom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 16, 2012 If the trade letter in question was read properly....it would be understood that Bachmann are not attempting to price fix the Recommended Retail Selling Price ....... they are saying that to discount more than 15% in their opinion ...can lead to businesses becoming unstable and unable to give the kind of backup and presentation of their products that they wish to see, it is still up to the retailer whether he sells at full RRSP or discounts ...or even charges more than RRSP .... It is not a case of just propping up some of the smaller shops ...it is also trying to make sure some of the bigger ones don't wobble either ... Regards Trevor .... See too my Post No.27 in this thread - I wonder if there is any link with that and if Bachmann is having a bit of problem with 'someone' in the heavy discount trade? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verityboo Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I think there is some confusion as the issue is not Bachmann acting as part of a cartel. A manufacturer acting alone is also in the wrong Taken from the OFT site "Anti-competitive agreements which affect trade in the UK are prohibited under Chapter I of the Competition Act 1998 (Chapter I) and, where they affect trade between European Union (EU) Member States, Article 101(1) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU (Article 101(1))." and "If you supply goods for resale, for example to a wholesaler, distributor or shop, it will also generally be illegal for you to agree a minimum price at which those goods may be resold." It says "generally be illegal" but there does not seem to be anything in the act where it is deemed to be acceptible Perhaps, like furniture stores, if the RRP price was realistic, there would be no need to discount? Furtinure stores sell a £2000 RRP sofa for £800 because thats what its worth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40F Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 However--the sting in the tail is--'Price Correction--Due To Unexpected Bachmann Price Increase-'-new Desiros rise to £144.50 ! Looks as if sanctions are beginning to bite. Would someone please make some sense of this before there are casualties in what seems to be a self -inflicted--and totally unnecessary price-war. New prices came into effect from 10.03.12 across the whole range new, old and not released items. That is were the price increase comes from Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 16, 2012 I dont think anybody would suggest it's their obligation, but there's a fair consensus that suggests it's in their interests, and it seems that they think that too. Not to mention that it is in our interests as consumers, too. More shops means more choice, means a healthier market place - i.e. the opposite of a monopoly. Unfortunately, in these consumerist times, instant gratification at min price has become a mantra, and certainly Bachmann may be frustrating that. By a whole 8 weeks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40F Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I think there is some confusion as the issue is not Bachmann acting as part of a cartel. A manufacturer acting alone is also in the wrong Taken from the OFT site "Anti-competitive agreements which affect trade in the UK are prohibited under Chapter I of the Competition Act 1998 (Chapter I) and, where they affect trade between European Union (EU) Member States, Article 101(1) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU (Article 101(1))." and "If you supply goods for resale, for example to a wholesaler, distributor or shop, it will also generally be illegal for you to agree a minimum price at which those goods may be resold." It says "generally be illegal" but there does not seem to be anything in the act where it is deemed to be acceptible Perhaps, like furniture stores, if the RRP price was realistic, there would be no need to discount? Furtinure stores sell a £2000 RRP sofa for £800 because thats what its worth Or they tell you it is £2000 and they can offer it to at £800 as a "deal" No body lnows the "correct " price for anything nowadays Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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