stadman Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Looking for some info on the Ashford built brakes. Namely ends. Was just one end fitted with LT couplers and no buffers with conventional draw gear opposing end? Any pics appreciated. Thanks. Kev S Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted March 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19, 2012 Am not an expert but I was under the impression they had normal buffers/drawgear both ends, and if needed to couple to tube stock then a barrier wagon with different couplings either end would be used? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted March 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 20, 2012 Just realised I have some pics sent to me of Jubilee stock moves in the 80's (not my copyright so I can't post them here). Basically shows: loco / BR brake van / 13T(?) mineral wagon / tube stock / 13T (?) mineral / brake van This tends to support my belief the Ashford vans had normal drawgear both ends Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted March 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 20, 2012 Trevor Rolfe (who owns the copyright) has sent me some more pics, and agreed to the use of them on here. I'll try and post some over the next couple of days. 25.300 Amersham 02Mar85: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted March 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 21, 2012 The rest of the pics. Now I've been able to view them more, it looks like all the brake vans in these sequences are hired in from BR, but unless anyone has pics of LT Ashford brakes directly attached to tube stock, I'd say this is a strong indication they never were. 25.201 Amersham 01Dec84: 31.327 Chorleywood 16Feb85 25.089 Amersham 16Dec84 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stadman Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 Thanks for the info and pic's (Including Trevor) Have purchased a couple Dapol kits I thought would make a conversion. Not that there's much call for LT in Devon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
L49 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Are you wanting to model the ex BR vans which were actually purchased by LT for engineers train working, or the ones like are being used in the photos, which would appear to be owned by BR, as probably are the match wagons? Two of the vans purchased by LT and converted for their own use are sat in the museum depot at Acton, and they do have RCH buffing gear on one end and a Ward coupler mounted at the other. I think (from memory) that the ward coupler is mounted at tube height to match the long rail train. There has certainly been a lot of platework added to the bufferbeam at the converted end to provide for the new coupling. Another feature of these in more recent years has been the fact that the guards lookout on the side of the van was removed on some vehicles and plated over with sheet metal. I know on at least on example this gave them a nice flat surface to put the LT roundel on! don't know when the conversions were carried out, or even whether they all happened at once or were done piecemeal. A trip to Acton would be a really good idea to have a look at the prototype, and I think that using the Dapol kit as a basis is a very good idea. IIRC I ended up simply throwing one bufferbeam away and building a new one out of plasticard. The lookouts shave off easily on the Dapol kit too! Good luck. (Correction...) I just googled London Transport brake van, and searched in images. There is a shot of B583 sat outside Acton works. This one still has it's lookout and the coupler is at surface stock height. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 In my gallery here: http://www.rmweb.co....atch01-0039jpg/ is an LT one directly attached to CO/CP stock at Leicester on its way to be scrapped, with a normal BR brake van behind it at the end of the train. Haven't got my notes right now but let me know if you want more details and I can dig them out. Sure there's been a thread mentioning these before. with more details of match wagons similar to those 13T opens in the above shots. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted March 22, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 22, 2012 There were actually four vans used by LT and each pair was fitted with Ward couplings at one end. One pair had the couplings at normal height and the other pair had couplings at 'tube' height. Each pair of vans had its own distinct and different livery probably to identify them for the type of stock they were intended for. IIRC one pair was in a mostly red livery and the other in grey/yellow similar to BR's ST stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stadman Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 Phil, Thought I'd erad about differing couplers. So one pair of vans has Tube height and another pair at surface height. No buffers. BR style buffing and coupling gear at non LUL end? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 The 1979 and 1980 London Underground Rolling Stock Books (Brian Hardy), list all the BR-pattern brake vans (B580-B585) as having only screw couplers and buffers. Which is clearly at odds with my photo at Leicester, which was 1981/82. Could the conversion have been carried out just after publication of those books? Edit: There's a thread about match wagons on the rmweb archive according to google, at www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27709 but as I write this, I can't connect to it (intermittent problem I think). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted March 22, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 22, 2012 Phil, Thought I'd erad about differing couplers. So one pair of vans has Tube height and another pair at surface height. No buffers. BR style buffing and coupling gear at non LUL end? Yes, the later Underground rolling stock books have details of liveries as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stadman Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 Thanks all progressing with the info. Just found these on flickr.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/geekgothgrrl/6836859988/in/pool-998733@N21/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted March 25, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 25, 2012 Some more pics. http://www.anorakheaven.com/photos/ev033.jpg These are the same two that are portrayed in the Acton photo above. Also note that they are marked on the frame ends 'A' and 'D', this is because the Ward couplers were 'handed', all Underground stock at one time had similar markings. The 'A' end could only couple to a 'D' end not to another A end. The pair in the photograph were used for 'Surface' stock, a different liveried pair was used for 'Tube' stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 We had these old LT vans on trains to Long Marston in 1977. I wonder if they had a BR van on the rear as well as one of these? http://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/5812498309/in/set-72157626626430667 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 B583 and B584 coupled at Acton last year. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 We had these old LT vans on trains to Long Marston in 1977. I wonder if they had a BR van on the rear as well as one of these? http://www.flickr.co...157626626430667 At first glance I wondered if that van was infact this type ? http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2583/3892586899_b2af30acf8_z.jpg?zz=1 Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted March 25, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 25, 2012 At first glance I wondered if that van was infact this type ? http://farm3.staticf...acf8_z.jpg?zz=1 Jon Not quite the same but similar. I believe one is preserved at Quainton Road. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
London cambrian Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Hi all. I know the man who was at ashford works at the time these vans were built, and works manager when they came back for rebuilding. From what he says and other sources the story goes like this.. Once upon a time...no sorry.! Lt was looking to replace the ageing met and Hurst nelson brake vans in the sixties so went to BR. BR didnt have any spare so sent an extra order to ashford works for 6 plain bearing brake vans. (originally LT wanted 7 secondhand ones) These arrived in 1962. They were standard 20 ton brake vans. When steam finished four were taken for rebuilding, according to workhorses, in mansfield. Though my friend recalls them at ashford in the final years. Anyway. 2 were converted to tube height, the other two to standard height. At this point they were given roller bearings (originally LT found roller bearings unsuitable for use on ballast trains and long standing periods) and rebuilt in places. though they retained duckets, atleast the ones at Acton did. The two at acton were even given tops codes and ran on the national system. I dont know what happened to the tube stock ones but the surface stock ones survive after a life time of intermittent use hauling dead stock around the LT system and BR metals, at acton depot, rusting in peace. The other two as far as i can make out, one is being restored at the Epping and ongar railway and the other, scandalously is in BR bauxite at Quainton road! The brake van shown in the pic from Brian Daniels' post is indeed one of two 'Flat brakes' converted in 1950 from flat wagons. they were originally for the unique Diesel loco DEL120 (as battery locos traditionally run in pairs and do not require brake vans). Later they were rebuilt with bigger cabs and when the DEL120 was scrapped used with the long welded rail train for when steam locos hauled it. I daresay they were also used as match wagons, which it demonstrates in the photo! Indeed one is preserved at quainton road. Right hope your still with me, hope that helps and i havnt hijacked/killed the thread... LC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stadman Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 No hijacking when adding useful info. thanks all for the continuing input. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
L49 Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Just found this link to Flickr with one of the variants I remember seeing at Ruislip. This is the one with no duckets, but I can't see from this photo whether the van has Ward or RCH couplings on the far end. http://www.flickr.com/photos/beechwoodphotography/5430303548/in/set-72157621801774975/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
London cambrian Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 I presume that would be the tube runners then. thanks for that L49 never seen that one before. does anyone know what became of them? to reiterate the point the were all built originally with RCH draw gear both ends and later converted to ward type etc for passenger stock and worked as pairs. interesting to note that these tube ones were painted service stock yellow when the other two certainly when seen on the network were painted the more usual red and grey of brake vans cheersLC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Narnia Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 This is an interesting thread. I'm trying to build a pair of Met 10t brake vans and I was hoping to use the old Hornby NE van as a base. All I want to use is the chasis and the roof. The rest I can scratch build. Does any one have an old Hornby NE brake van they can measure? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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