Are Hornby interested in Modern Image?

[John M Upton]

Interesting to note postponements of Hornby 2012 releases has seen the ACoRP 87 and the Strathclyde 101 ditched. In the case of the former good riddance to what was in my opinion one of the silliest choices of livery Hornby have made in years, in the case of the latter I wonder how much the Bachmann 101 announcement influenced the decision.

 

Hopefully neither of these models will appear now and the production slots can be used for something worth bothering with.

[Pennine MC]

Hopefully neither of these models will appear now and the production slots can be used for something worth bothering with.

 

Like DP2

[Guest Max Stafford]

Be off with you to the Naughty Step, Ian! ;-)

 

Dave.

[coachmann]

Modern Image originally meant the replacement of steam with diesel power (I havent forgotten electrics). Without analysing, dissecting, dismembering, evaluateing, scrutinizeing or pouring over the term, simply say which years you are modelling, however, be prepared to be told you are modelling modern image...

[Pennine MC]

Modern Image originally meant the replacement of steam with diesel power (I havent forgotten electrics).

 

I'd go a bit further than that, admittedly I'm second-guessing the late Mr Freezer but I'm inclined to think he meant everything that went with it, including the investment in new signalling, new stations and track etc. Lines like the WCML (promoted as Britain's New Railway IIRC) were very much the 'shop window', the shiny new face of progress; but it wasnt like that in many places, in some the new trains were running in and out of rundown Victorian piles. Hence my belief that he really did mean a modern image.

[coachmann]

I haven't any of Cyril articles any more but I suspect that if a steam layout featured in 'Railway Modeller' had a diesel skulking around some place, it would be said to have a touch of modern image in the shape of a........

[ThaneofFife]

If only things were this cut and dry.

 

Whilst it makes sense to apply the term Modern Image to todays railway scene that is a moving feast and changes it face quite a lot in every year that passes by but FWIW in my view and in railway modelling parlance and context discussed here I would suggest MI relates to the diesel and electric period spanning the years circa 1970 to 2000 - predominantly the BR and Sectored eras not the BR era or the post steam era etc. For those of a certain age this is what MI means to them. For a youngster of which I would hazard a guess there arent many on here, I would have thought MI means modern as in whats on the railway today. It can mean different things to different people of different ages surely? And is there any problem with that per se?

 

Lets not even bring in the words "Heritage" or "Classic".

 

What would I call the railway of today with its bland swathes of multiple units and characterless diesels? I dont know - Contemporary? Present Day? Privatised - now there's a good one! What would you call them in another 10 years from now? Again I would venture to suggest that it depends how old you are and what era you grew up in. If you did a poll of 100 modellers who grew up with trains in say 1980 - 99 of them would turn around today and say that their model railway of that period was modern image. Few from that time would confuse the phrase with the railway we have today. To the uninitiated though they would be totally confused but we arent the uninitiated are we.

[The Black Hat]

I think its fairly obvious that Hornby are interested in the the diesel and electric period to an extent, but the term Modern Image doesnt help any more.

 

Really the term existed to start to diferenciate between blue and grey and transition modelling way back when, before then being used for sectorisation, and finally privitisation when each were the 'modern image'. Some still used it to denote the idea of the previous era, but that means that Modern Image now encompasses transition diesels, BR, sectors, and privitisation - 4 time periods at least. Its like saying Steam for all steam engines right from nineteenth century through to modern day preservation.

 

Whats needed is the term modern image to stick to the relavent modern day operations on the real network. Right now Id say privistation is leaving its second period of operation and entering a third with the likes of 15 year franchises on the horizon. Gone are GNER, Virgin Cross Country, Midland Mainline, Arriva Trains Northern and Nat Ex Scotrail to name a few that made up the first period and now Frist TPE, First GW, Northern, Nat Express and the like are being phased out for the next round of franchises. Applying Modern Image to mean a pre-tops class 47 is daft as its clearly not modern, nor an image seen today.

 

Hornby for their part have few production slots available, given the scheer volume of stuff thats slipped and needs to be made. The steam bunch take a fair ton of this as it needs making and brings in revenue, but the new class 67 is a beacon for the idea that Hornby still are aware and staying in the current modern image sector of the market. Other items bought from when Hornby took over competitors also sees some models for the modern modeller, like the class 47, 66 and 156, but Bachmann and Dapol are launching new class 101's and 73s knowing the standard people expect now, although by my definition they are not really on the modern network any more.

 

Its a case of Hornby can make so much at the moment and when they do, if you want it and accept the model, then you pay your money and take your choice. Unsold items will soon make Hornby realise that more can be done or that better selctions of models are needed, which the modern scene could welcome from Hornby as their selection process is not brilliant. Take the Hornby Network Rail 31 and Fragonset 31, which both had features unqiue to one locomotive, by doing a Fragonset 31 with the marker light where it is on the Reggi 31 at present, Hornby would have sold more given they always ran in pairs! Hornby still have not done a trainload 60 in Coal, Metals or Transrail.

 

Hornby model the modern image but now its a case of defining what that means and getting the models for the periods people want.

[Pennine MC]

....For a youngster of which I would hazard a guess there arent many on here, I would have thought MI means modern as in whats on the railway today. It can mean different things to different people of different ages surely? And is there any problem with that per se?

 

Each generation does, as you say, tend to take the phrase for its own, to reflect what it knows. At one time that might have irked me, but looking back, I and my contemporaries did it in the '80s, which although it was chronologically closer to CJF's intention, wasnt really in the spirit of it. So, history repeats itself ad infinitum and with each year that passes, the potential for confusion grows.

 

As to whether there's a problem, it depends what you call a problem I suppose. The fact that a significant part of this thread is taken up with discussing it, plus the frequency with which it gets debated on the 'Net, suggests that there is one. I'd still say that the intention of reflecting today's scene could be achieved by simply saying 'modern', without the 'image' suffix, but pragmatically, I dont really see that habit changing, it's far too ingrained now. Like the similar discussions of what constitutes 'finescale', it's not something that I foresee any solution to. And particularly as the only gentleman who has the actual right to redefine it is no longer with us, overall I'm pretty philosophical about it.

.

Hornby model the modern image but now its a case of defining what that means and getting the models for the periods people want.

 

I dont think that will acheive what you want David, simply because Hornby wont know what a vague request for 'more modern image' means, any more than the rest of us do. If people want particular models for particular periods, why not just say that?

[Guest Belgian]

I wonder how the reception of the Brighton Belle units will affect Hornby's interpretation of 'modern image' interest. To me, and I suspect many of the 'older generation', 'modern image' means non-steam. Thus the BB, despite being introduced in 1933, is still 'modern image' to many.

 

Not being in the retail trade I don't know what the response has been to the BB models, but two recent e-bay auctions lead me to suspect that they may not be great sellers at the price . Today a pair of driving cars in Grey/blue livery, went for just £92, rather less than half of the RRP. A week or so ago one of the intermediate cars went for £20.99. Is there a message there for Hornby?

 

JE

[The Black Hat]

I dont think that will acheive what you want David, simply because Hornby wont know what a vague request for 'more modern image' means, any more than the rest of us do. If people want particular models for particular periods, why not just say that?

 

I agree and thats what Im saying. Modern Image now is literally just privitisation. If people want a nice updated class 156, for example, then vote for it. Some might decry the model, others like that despite it being a former Lima one the model is there and available. The new class 67 is a point that Hornby are catering for a modern diesel, while if you want Hornby to make something new, like a first gen DMU, then again, lobby and vote for it. Hornby I think have a reputation of having bought out a competitors range and then flogging us the models made from that tooling for some time. When you look at what is pure Hornby the range gets a lot smaller. Stuff from Dapol that Hornby bought is still with us, the J94 for example, while the Limby stuff has taken that to the next level.

 

Diesel and Electric models are well covered, because the classes were more national. A lot of whats needed now are units, coaches, wagons.... meanwhile the steam lot know a lot of their prototypes havent been done. So its a case of what do you make gives you the best return.

[D605Eagle]

I wonder how the reception of the Brighton Belle units will affect Hornby's interpretation of 'modern image' interest. To me, and I suspect many of the 'older generation', 'modern image' means non-steam. Thus the BB, despite being introduced in 1933, is still 'modern image' to many.

 

Not being in the retail trade I don't know what the response has been to the BB models, but two recent e-bay auctions lead me to suspect that they may not be great sellers at the price . Today a pair of driving cars in Grey/blue livery, went for just £92, rather less than half of the RRP. A week or so ago one of the intermediate cars went for £20.99. Is there a message there for Hornby?

 

JE

This is how I'm making a set. I have 2 centre cars so far, total outlay including postage is less than £50. Hopefully I'll get the ful 5 cars for less than £150. Good thing is I'm not in a hurry.

[richierich]

The debate of "Modern Image", I much prefer Bachmann's use of "Eras", which removes the confusion and is more specific to the different eras people model.

[Pennine MC]

The debate of "Modern Image", I much prefer Bachmann's use of "Eras", which removes the confusion and is more specific to the different eras people model.

 

It might be more specific in a relative sense, but it's far from being an answer. The reasons for that were widely discussed when it was introduced, but because the use of stock by the real railways doesnt always fit into neat pigeonholes, it can only ever offer a generalised overview.

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi all

 

Sadly the need for eras or some other manufacturer definitions only exists because many modern modellers (I mean modellers now not modellers of diesels) seem to have forgotten how to do research for themselves. It's all linked to the culture of expecting everything to be done for them.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

 

[ThaneofFife]

Hi all

 

Sadly the need for eras or some other manufacturer definitions only exists because many modern modellers (I mean modellers now not modellers of diesels) seem to have forgotten how to do research for themselves. It's all linked to the culture of expecting everything to be done for them.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

 

Times change (never more so than in the last 10-15 years) and whether we all change with them is down to personal choice rather than an implied laziness if one decides to opt for the fast easy way rather than the time consuming or difficult way.

 

We all have different levels of free time to go off and research and that is a fact of modern life that cannot not be overlooked no matter how pithy the statement to the contrary.

 

If one modeller has time to rifle through lots of books, magazines, drawings, records etc and the next modeller doesnt, pigeon holing them as being on two different levels of mindfulness to the hobby is shortsighted and only serves to create tensions between all the various levels of modeller.

 

On a less negative note I actually think the era branding that has been introduced must really help newbies or younger members of the hobby and I would venture to suggest that such branding was brought in specifically to help those folk on the fringes of knowledge. Makes sense really.

[S.A.C Martin]

[/off topic]

 

Just to add - where do you begin to research some topics? I'd like to think I do my fair share of research but it's also got to be accepted that it's not a sin to ask for help when it is needed.

 

Some people also do not have the necessary resources to hand. I am extremely grateful for RMweb, the LNER forum and the like in this manner because it means like minded people can pool resources if they so wish to.

 

I can't see why anyone wouldn't want to share information, unless in an extreme case, there's no thank you, or repeated questions on similar subjects which can be easily looked up via the search tab on here.

[SquireBev]

It's odd that in an age where research has never been easier, thanks to the wonderful interwebs, that people should forget how to do it.

I remember, coming back to railway modelling after a break of several years, I'd forgotten all the history. A few minutes browsing Wikipedia later and it all came back.

[Andy Y]

Times change (never more so than in the last 10-15 years) and whether we all change with them is down to personal choice rather than an implied laziness if one decides to opt for the fast easy way rather than the time consuming or difficult way.

 

We all have different levels of free time to go off and research and that is a fact of modern life that cannot not be overlooked no matter how pithy the statement to the contrary.

 

If one modeller has time to rifle through lots of books, magazines, drawings, records etc and the next modeller doesnt, pigeon holing them as being on two different levels of mindfulness to the hobby is shortsighted

 

I do have an issue with this in is basic form; we get questions along the lines of "I have a big room, what shall I put in it?" and "I'd like to model Birmingham New street, how do I go about it?". If someone's asking those questions don't they at least have some thoughts of what they'd like to achieve?

 

Th other aspect is that such questions are so damned wide there's little hope of giving a meaningful answer and even then is it worth putting the effort into a response if the person asking the question is prepared to put so little personal thought and time into it? Having the internet, fellow modellers knowledge and references to other resources is a fantastic thing but there needs to be some sense of direction to it all.

 

That's going way off OP I know but it does frustrate me.

[woodenhead]

Darn, I was planning the Liverpool to Manchester Chat Moss including Victoria, Exchange, Salford, Edge Hill, the tunnels and Lime Street in O in my boxroom and was hoping someone could do me a trackplan and tell me what stock I needed to do 1950-1980.

[Guest dilbert]

Times change (never more so than in the last 10-15 years) and whether we all change with them is down to personal choice rather than an implied laziness if one decides to opt for the fast easy way rather than the time consuming or difficult way.

 

We all have different levels of free time to go off and research and that is a fact of modern life that cannot not be overlooked no matter how pithy the statement to the contrary.

 

It has never been different, but concerning research there has never been a fast easy way either...

 

If one modeller has time to rifle through lots of books, magazines, drawings, records etc and the next modeller doesnt, pigeon holing them as being on two different levels of mindfulness to the hobby is shortsighted and only serves to create tensions between all the various levels of modeller.

 

It's a question of organisation, but when formulating a request for info, it is helpful for the requestor to highlight specifically what is required and what efforts have been made to date to obtain* information... for those who are willing to reply (in a way it becomes like a personalised Google service), it saves them time by potentially avoiding duplicating info that is already known to the requestor... dilbert

 

* I don't consider I searched Google and couldn't find anything much of an effort, expecially when other sources such as libraries have not been considered.

[Pennine MC]

We all have different levels of free time to go off and research and that is a fact of modern life that cannot not be overlooked no matter how pithy the statement to the contrary.

 

If one modeller has time to rifle through lots of books, magazines, drawings, records etc and the next modeller doesnt, pigeon holing them as being on two different levels of mindfulness to the hobby is shortsighted and only serves to create tensions between all the various levels of modeller.

 

There's an old adage that if you want something doing, you should ask a man who's busy rather than one who isnt. The modeller who 'has time' may actually be just as pressed as the next man, but be of a very helpful inclination; tension works both ways and I kinda think it's a bit presumptious for anyone to suppose that the time of the 'knowledgeable' man is any less valuable than someone else's, or to take advantage of his good nature by treating him as an unpaid librarian.

 

Again there's a case for balance, rather than citing polarised extremes. I would agree with SAC, that if you're knowledgeable in a certain field and have a ready idea where specific info can be located, it will take you less time than a raw tyro who has literally no idea where to start looking, but it is rather too easy for folk to get into a mindset where they think any question, no matter how broad, can be resolved on a forum.

 

On a less negative note I actually think the era branding that has been introduced must really help newbies or younger members of the hobby and I would venture to suggest that such branding was brought in specifically to help those folk on the fringes of knowledge. Makes sense really.

 

I'd agree it's fine as a starting point, that point was well made on here when the system was introduced. Once its limitations are realised though, there's a lot of satisfaction to be gained in going beyond it, but the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake does seem to be a bit old fashioned nowadays.

[ThaneofFife]

There's an old adage that if you want something doing, you should ask a man who's busy rather than one who isnt.

 

I wouldnt be so sure about that. Sounds a bit made up to me.

 

I think the adage you might have got mixed up with is "if you want something doing, do it yourself"......

 

Some of the other posts have one or two perfectly valid points.

[coachmann]

I was thinking about this thread on the way to the post office and got back to see Andy's entry above. I also read this below:-

If one modeller has time to rifle through lots of books, magazines, drawings, records etc and the next modeller doesnt, pigeon holing them as being on two different levels of mindfulness to the hobby is shortsighted and only serves to create tensions between all the various levels of modeller.

I too was slightly irritated by this and the modernday predelection for tampering with history. The modellers who have spent years researching do not owe anybody a living. Personally I find some of the questions that come up on RMweb are rather cheeky, as it shows the questioner is not even prepared to do the simplest of research for themselves. If this wasn't enough, we now get people arguing with answers where the research was done and things were settled several generations ago. To me if folk haven't done the research, they are in no position to question the answers!

 

Questioning the meaning of 'Modern Image' is just one of those things internet users just love to chew over time and time again. It is simple:- There is steam era and there is modern image. It is the rider that follows that is important. A steam era modeller might add a rider like : pre-grouping Caledonian, or early LMS, or 1930s Southern, or post-war GWR, early BR and so-forth. A 'modern image' rider might be : mid 1950s when pilot scheme diesels were just coming in, or late 1950s transition, or Corporate blue era, or Sector era or privatised era or todays scene. It's like me saying I have a Ford......I'm bound to be asked what model and so 'Mondeo' is the all-important rider.

 

The Epochs used by the proprietory manufacturers were simply designed to assist newcomers, but the most basic research shows Epochs are somewhat wanting. Common sense should tell people locos and stock were not all painted overnight and not everyone in every part of Britian experienced the same form of dieselization and the introduction of 'modern image'.

 

Edited final sentence structure.

[Pennine MC]

I wouldnt be so sure about that. Sounds a bit made up to me.

 

I think the adage you might have got mixed up with is "if you want something doing, do it yourself"......

 

 

Thanks for the thought, but I knew exactly what I wanted to say

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adage

 

An adage ( /ˈædɨdʒ/; Latin: adagium) is a short but memorable saying which holds some important fact of experience that is considered true by many people, or that has gained some credibility through its long use.