Ravenser Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 This thread is basically about "modern image", right? Where I was commenting on lack of market research and strategy let me give an example. In the present (online) catalogue there's a green Cl.33 and Cl.42 in the range. There's no indication what type of vehicles these might haul. The catalogue only lists three Mk1 coaches - a green BSK (fine for the Cl.33 and possibly the Cl.42 on Waterloo workings), a choc & cream RMB for the Cl.42 and a crimson & cream BG not really suitable for either. Where's the strategy in this? Good market research would surely have identified some need for coherency in liveries/coach types for someone to actually be able to assemble a train to run behind these locos from the product range. But these are very opportunistic reuse of some very elderly tooling acquired from Lima at minimal book value to provide some bargain basement items for Railroad - when almost everyone including Hornby knows there are much more recent and much better models of both classes out there, and have been for years. Hornby have re-released some cheap old tat at minimal cost to run against Bachmann and Heljan models . And their Mk1s date from the early 60s The last thing you could call any of these items is " totally new designs" . I suspect that market research had identified the market for these very elderly models as folk who didn't much care about accuracy and would be happy to buy the things so long regardless as they were cheap Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The last thing you could call any of these items is " totally new designs" . I suspect that market research had identified the market for these very elderly models as folk who didn't much care about accuracy and would be happy to buy the things so long regardless as they were cheap They often aren't cheap. Hornby is re-issuing old tat at modern day prices as if they were newly produced models. I could list a whole string of models but it wont change things. On the otherhand, it might change Hornby's cavalier attitude if such tat remains unsold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 This doesn't half feel like a re-hash of the 'Hornby's future is cheap toys' thread with a thin 'let's only keep it to modern image' veil... which has already partially torn with the wandering into steam areas... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Indeed Larry Nearly £30 rrp for a mk2d which has been produced for about 40 years is more than taking the urine. Problem is that people pay it when the market is flooded with second hand examples, sometimes for less than a fifth of the price. There's a certain amount of urban mythology that fuels this though. The new motors in the limby stuff are better is one, my experience is nothing could be further from the truth. They cant pull the skin off a rice pudding and the way they are mounted (pivoted from the top) is an idea triang abandonded as stupid half a century ago! The other one that crops up is 'it's easier to fit dcc' which is true but let's be realistic here, if people would rather pay over the odds for this reason alone instead of soldering 4 wires they should be ashamed of themselves. It worries me just how inept we are becoming if this is the case. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 There is one point that's missing from this thread. With other manufacturers Bachmann, Dapol and Heljan, 4mm scale deisels are a part of their range of products. With Hornby, railways as a whole are part of their range. Let's not forget they produce loads of other lines that have nothing to do with our hobby at all so with this in mind it's hugely unrealistic to expect the same approach as railway only companies. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold farren Posted March 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 30, 2012 can i say it's nice to see some sance being spoken for once and after coming back in to the model would after about 15-20 years out of it and seeing some of the old Hornby models that i had when i was a kid still going for the most part stupid prices it dose make you think what some of are modelers out there can do for themselves i my self will be the first to put my hands up and say i my not get everything spot on but i have a go and if i am happy with it it stays if not i go back to the drawing board and start again. i have come to the idea that we are not going to get a perfect model ever i have come to the point of a balance of cost/detail/reliability and DCC compatibility (has in two wires which can be spliced, spilt frames are beyond me) if a new model comes out of a class never built before or just very hard to find a good one which can be made in to a DCC loco I'll bay one but if there is a good one which is all ready out there i be more then happy to save the pennies and do some work my self the same with couches wagons etc. eg i have just bought two Hornby LMS pugs one of eBay and one of a market still for £15 and £5 respectively and bought a new motor for £5 plus p+p two nights work on repairs cleaning and painting and i now have 2 working pugs for a total of £27 which is £30 under Hornby's RTP so i can bay some thing else or just go down the pub which ever so i can't under stand why people don't want to do any thing themselves any more? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan452 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Perhaps with this in mind, the manufacturers see better hunting grounds, such as pre-group goods engines and secondary service rolling stock. That, perhaps is where we find ourselves today and of course if other manufacturers are seeing it the same way then who's to blame Hornby who have more pressing priorities at the moment? Dave. Maybe Hornby (and Bachmann in their 2012 announcement) are currently focusing on the above as (to put it delcately) the 'demograhic window' in the market for these products/era will be closing in the fairly near future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Taz Posted March 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 30, 2012 ..... as (to put it delcately) the 'demograhic window' in the market for these products/era will be closing in the fairly near future. I do hope not as I'm only 38 . Not wishing to go too far OT but every time the discussion of 'we model what we remember from our youth' comes up there is always at least one person to whom that doesn't apply for every one where it does. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I'd just like to know why people think that the answer to the OP is anything other than a resounding "yes" when you take into consideration the new 67 on its way. Huge demand for the new, up to date model, and Hornby are delivering. The 56 and 60 of recent years, along with the still relevant classes 08/09 ought to push that idea more firmly along with the new rolling stock they have produced, for the 90s and 00s up to now. I just wonder if the reason we are always coming back to these sort of questions, is in fact a lack of clarity of Hornby's approach to all things railways. The joined up thinking where we get new HST diesel locomotives, but no coaches of equal levels of detail to go between them, and then to perhaps muddy the waters further, we get a similar train-pack idea with the Brighton Belle, and there we do get the coaches of equal levels of detail to go between them, gives out a lot of mixed signals. Again I seem to be coming back to what I was saying in the "Is Hornby's future cheap toys" thread - mixed signals given out by Hornby in their overall business strategy, coupled with the heights of excellence for models (Thompson L1, Gresley Suburbans, Class 56 and 60 along with the intermodal stock) and then some questionable design decisions (4VEP, Limby Warship) just serve to confuse the average punter...on this forum. I wonder if it is because we're more discerning as a whole that we try and look for things that aren't there? Maybe there is no overall strategy in terms of "we'll do this, this and that to complement" and it is closer to a "we'll do this, that, and the other, because it will sell". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Indeed Larry There's a certain amount of urban mythology that fuels this though. The new motors in the limby stuff are better is one, my experience is nothing could be further from the truth. They cant pull the skin off a rice pudding and the way they are mounted (pivoted from the top) is an idea triang abandonded as stupid half a century ago! Cheers Jim I have to disagree here. In suitable multiple units - classes 101, 121, 153, 156 - and no doubt the GW Railcar - the 4 wheel Limby motor bogie is very effective. I don't for a moment think it's a suitable drive for an 87 or a 73 , and on mechanical grounds alone I wouldn't touch Hornby's 66 with a barge pole , but in short length multiple units the Limby 4 wheel motor bogie is a very smooth reliable unit. I have a direct comparison - a Hornby-Lima NSWGR 422 class, which, being mostly meant for a non EU market retains its pancake motor - and it's much rougher and required playing about with the voltage curve to get reasonable controlled running. The Limby powered DMUs are much easier to set up, smoother and more reliable. They don't need finger prodding or stall. The pancake 422 class may well haul more , but in a 1or 2 car DMU that's basically irrelevant. In my experience the old Lima units were even less effective than the Hornby -Lima reissue: in terms of stalling, needing prodding with a finger, and taking off at half the speed of light when you did. And these were on stock worked over by capable modellers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The taking off at light speed thing is exactly the problem I have had with the new power bogies. I guess I have just been unlucky then. If I do get any more (not likely) I know where to come to swap them for lima ones! Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Maybe Hornby (and Bachmann in their 2012 announcement) are currently focusing on the above as (to put it delcately) the 'demograhic window' in the market for these products/era will be closing in the fairly near future. Using that logic, in 30 years time, Bachmann will only need to produce Voyagers and 66s... Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D605Eagle Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I'd just like to know why people think that the answer to the OP is anything other than a resounding "yes" when you take into consideration the new 67 on its way. Huge demand for the new, up to date model, and Hornby are delivering. Have you just made that up or do you have some actual figures to back it up? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted March 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 30, 2012 Im scratching my head... how many people who are employed by Hornby are railway modellers? - not many how many people who are employed by Hornby are railway enthusiasts? - probably even less how many share-holders in Hornby care what is in the range they supply? Hornby product portfolio does not soley consist of model railway items, why would they concentrate on the model railway market? that seems to be the common denomimator of late "oh Hornby are not doing this or that this must mean they are not interested in model railway items anymore!" Hornby are a PLC there sole aim is to make a profit and to increase or maintain a healthy share-holding. The objective of pleasing the railway modelling community is tertiary.....when they also have the scalextrix community the airfix community the corgi community.....the humbrol community....i could go on but i think you get the picture... In say 10 years time how will we look at the Hornby 31? it will be out of date with current methods and detail..yet at the moment its a cutting edge model....its the same with the limby stuff cutting edege at one point but now its basic and poorly by comparison, detailed.......no one makes a 73, no one makes a 121 why invest 10s of thousands of pounds in a model that currently has no equals in the 00 guage market??? Espeacially in poor economic climates... Bachmann/Heljan/Dapol on the other hand there only market is model railways so it pays to win customers from their competitors....how do we do that...i know lets make models that are better then theirs..... I think people get far to passionate about this subject....remember Hornby, Bachmann, Heljan, etc etc sole objective is profit....anyone who thinks otherwise is mistaken! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Have you just made that up or do you have some actual figures to back it up? Figures, no; a general grasp of the number of times a "retooled 67" has been mentioned here, and on the other dozen or so forums, Model Rail, BRM, RM, REX and similar, whenever the word "retooling" comes up in conversation... ...and of course noting that the 67 with the DVT train pack did sell out every quickly recently, and again, the first few comments on the 67's thread on here contained the words "why don't they [Hornby] retool it". In short, an understanding of the mood for the model in much the same way you no doubt understand (and to some extent, I agree!) there is a palpable, shared desire for a K1 which has been an underlying choice in the wishlists, and mentioned at every opportunity whenever Hornby's new product range comes up (and in this case, the cries are louder because the chances of getting one are clearly getting better, with many of the components needed for a K1 now in the Hornby toolroom in various forms). But actual figures? I could never lay claim to having them. Perhaps sifting through the previous wishlists pre-2011 (when the 67 was announced mid-year instead of at Xmas - as had been expected!) will provide some figures towards the overall desire for the 67 and further the case for its new model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 ...What's maybe hard to follow personally is their schizophrenic nature - old and awful by modern standards items knocked out in every unrepresentative-but-pretty livery they can find (TEA) is still in the main range along with reasonable new 'mid-fi' tooling (153) and stuff that stands up against the best RTR from anywhere in the world (60) - at times it gives the impression they don't have a strategy. Oh but they do, just not a strategy necessarily aligned with the customer's best interest. ... With Bachmann and Heljan, I detect a certain strategy. With Hornby I don't. Each of the first two named do appear to have a strategy, and both are fairly coherent from a 'modeller customer' perspective. Hornby's strategy is different from either, and is mostly about leveraging that wonderful brand* name for maximum profit. The 'glow' of the premium products in the range casts its golden sheen over the veriest dross in the same range. *approach any number of random citizens on a UK street and ask them to tick the names of model train manufacturers from this list: Bachmann Dapol Graham Farish Heljan Hornby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted March 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 30, 2012 The 'glow' of the premium products in the range casts its golden sheen over the veriest dross in the same range. And therein lies the conundrum. I accept Hornby seem to be in the process of slowly upgrading their models (very slowly) but there is an expectation that something of about the same quality might be found within the brand no matter what is being purchased. Price differentials are part of the guide but not entirely reliable. The launch of the "Railroad" range has brought in a lower-end cheap and cheerful selection but even here the boundaries are blurred with the main range and it is not always apparent to the non-enthusiasit purchaser what the difference might be between a red box product and a red / yellow one. It's hard enough to tell from an online shop in some cases as the catalogue numbers are in the same series so if there is no other form of identification then buyer beware. I return to my argument regarding consistency. Hornby could have commenced a new catalogue number series for Railroad items but chose not to. They could have replaced the huge loop couplers across the range in a short space of time but chose not to. They might have been able to release the 121 / 153 single cars with suspended motors (and in the case of the 121 the whole thing is a reworking of a Lima product) at less than the price of a heavyweight and extremely robust Bachmann "Warship" but didn't. The fact is that we cannot rely on the product quality or specification. The actual range covers most of the past 100 years and while it favours some regions over others the same can also be said for the other manufacturers as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I think people get far to passionate about this subject....remember Hornby, Bachmann, Heljan, etc etc sole objective is profit....anyone who thinks otherwise is mistaken! To put another cast on this - Some shareholders can drive the profit motive to the exclusion of all else... But most companies are a well knit family producing products they love making, not just for profit. Where the profit motive rules supreme, unless there is some special reason, the good employees will, if they can, vote with their feet. Companies tend to lose profits when this happens as the lack of continuity and employee morale degrades the service. So I doubt that Hornby is the soulless monster some try to make it out to be. They just don`t seem to have a very good grasp on what they could be doing that would turn their company round and make it a model of outstanding success. There is plenty of room in what is a booming model railway market for all who wish to make their mark. Hornby`s niche market are the beginners - doting parents buying first trains for their Sons and Daughters. They just have not catered too well for them when they have grown up and retired and by now more seasoned modellers. I think they are missing out on a brilliant opportunity - clearly they do not appear see it that way.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I think part of the problem here is at the various product launches when Rail Express have asked about the lack of new D&E models they have been told 'oh no we've not forgotten about D&E', 'there are several projects just bubbling under' and I am not sure where it came from but it seemed to be intimated that the following year was to be the year for D&E. Whether these were Hornbys words with a bit of Rail Express spin I don't know (and if I have mis-quoted I apologise) but it raised expectations which were not fulfilled. I do wonder if there was more on the cards for D&E but hornbys well publicised production problems have caused cancellations and delay. Incidentaly if my ability level was good enough I would produce my own stock but there is no-way I could match the quality of the latest releases from any manufacterer. (You should see my renumbered Heljan 47's eeeekk)!!! mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 And therein lies the conundrum. I accept Hornby seem to be in the process of slowly upgrading their models (very slowly) but there is an expectation that something of about the same quality might be found within the brand no matter what is being purchased. Price differentials are part of the guide but not entirely reliable. The launch of the "Railroad" range has brought in a lower-end cheap and cheerful selection but even here the boundaries are blurred with the main range and it is not always apparent to the non-enthusiasit purchaser what the difference might be between a red box product and a red / yellow one. It's hard enough to tell from an online shop in some cases as the catalogue numbers are in the same series so if there is no other form of identification then buyer beware. I return to my argument regarding consistency... Rick, I happened to go to a show a few years ago, and there was a quiet mid-afternoon spell, and there was that most genial Mr Kohler. So I went for a chat. What I proposed was that they were damaging their brand by the undifferentiated nature of their two ranges, in exactly the same terms as you express around consistency: and that my feeling was that the existing products suggested that a three tier structure of Premium/Mid-range/Railroad might be sustained. But with complete charm Mr Kohler begged to differ, and expressed the view that their present product marketing strategy secured the desired results for the business, and therefore would not change until such time as the market clearly dictated otherwise. Now, I have never been in the model railway business, and don't intend to be, so have to concede that my own business experience gained in rather different fields may not be wholly applicable. Mr Kohler's view was expressed in terms of professional conviction in the most exemplary manner: I've met many persuasive marketing types over the years, and would judge him a good performer. Hornby have a strategy. It may just not be one that D+E modellers find that welcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted March 31, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 31, 2012 And I too have had conversations with Mr. Kohler and found him equally genial. One of those concerned the test shots of the 4Vep which were at that time sitting in front of us. My concerns about a number of points, which have been shared and discussed by many of us in the Vep thread, were brushed politely aside with a shrug of his shoulders suggesting not only that he felt nothing was amiss with the model he was displaying but that commercially it would succeed despite any flaws. Time has told us that the Vep is flawed and that Hornby have not always responded in a manner we might have expected. But nothing seems to fluster Mr. Kohler and Hornby are still trading. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 The taking off at light speed thing is exactly the problem I have had with the new power bogies. I guess I have just been unlucky then. If I do get any more (not likely) I know where to come to swap them for lima ones! Cheers Jim For what it's worth - a hasty test in unfavourable conditions (ie I've quickly connected the PowerCab to the board behind me and stuck a 153 on the track. I know the track hasn't been cleaned in 2 months , and rubbing a tissue from my pocket over the rail twice showed a long black mark and produced a marked improvement) First release Central 153 - Moving at speed step 2 out of 128 its taking around 17 sec to cover the distance of one arch on a Scalescenes retaining wall ( approx 4.5") though it stalled once over the 3 arch length . At speed step 10 out of 128 it's taking 16-17 sec to cover 15" - this feels about the level needed for normal operation to avoid any stall on a speck of dirt RR 153 - 16 sec for 16" length at speed step 9 out of 128 (I ran it towards the buffers then reversed direction on the move - hence slight imprecision in timing) At 28 speed steps they move at step 1 , though probably step 2 or 3 is sensible to avoid stalling on any dirt. Decoders fitted - TCS T1 (I would expect the 121 and GW Railcar to be very similar) The 156 is buried half way down a pile of stock but I've never noticed any significant difference in performance against the 153s . The 3 car 101 with a traction tyre is not quite as sure in starting - but the trailing load is more , and I will probably adapt this to a 2 car power/trailer set as I've sourced a spare chassis moulding (3 cars is a little much for a small layout with a lot of stock anyway) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Hi Rav I am a little unsure what you are trying to say. Its not good practise to run on dirty track but even if you did decide to do so, if you were to remove half of the pick ups from a Bachmann 25 (to leave 2 wheels per track picking up power as per a 1980s model) the performance would be just as dire. The amount of pickups you use does not have a bearing on how good the power bogie is. In my instance my lima stuff with ultracale wheels and extra pickups fitted haul more and are easier to control than the limby power bogie with Branchlines wheels and the same number of pickups. Thats far more of a like for like comparison of the actual power bogie and I am yet to come across a limby one thats even close to the same let alone better. That was my point. Rather than the extra expense of a limby model why not just fit more pickups to a lima one for a better result? Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Hi Rav I am a little unsure what you are trying to say. Its not good practise to run on dirty track but even if you did decide to do so, if you were to remove half of the pick ups from a Bachmann 25 (to leave 2 wheels per track picking up power as per a 1980s model) the performance would be just as dire. The amount of pickups you use does not have a bearing on how good the power bogie is. In my instance my lima stuff with ultracale wheels and extra pickups fitted haul more and are easier to control than the limby power bogie with Branchlines wheels and the same number of pickups. Thats far more of a like for like comparison of the actual power bogie and I am yet to come across a limby one thats even close to the same let alone better. That was my point. Rather than the extra expense of a limby model why not just fit more pickups to a lima one for a better result? Cheers Jim Jim : I'm saying that even under pretty unfavourable conditions my 153s are running very slowly and smoothly . I haven't tilted the playing field by freshly cleaning all the rails and wheels. An inch per second is pretty good slow speed running , and you'd have to turn up the control a long way to get it to take off like a startled cat. I'm getting it up to around speed step 50 before it starts to do that, though for the record Acceleration (CV3) is set to 4. I don't think this is a suitable motor bogie for locos hauling a significant load , but in the right application - a 1 or 2 or even 3 car DMU - it's a good drive delivering smooth and very slow running. It is vastly better - for example - than the chinese motor bogie in the Hornby 155 , though that is surprisingly effective at keeping moving and not stalling even if it sounds like a bag of nails (6 or 7 wheel pickup on that one) I think we may be talking at cross purposes - I suspect you are talking about the Limby motor bogie in locos required to haul a train of some length , whereas I'm talking about it in multiple units of 1-3 cars . There it is as good as the Bachmann drives in the 108, 150, 157/170 - which is what my Hornby models run with . I'm ready to believe performance falls off rapidly once you add a significant trailing load , but in shortish MUs the performance is substantially better than the Lima motor bogie Its a bad choice to power an 87 - it may be a pretty effective unit if they do a 120 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Hi rav I only use Lima power bogies in light locos and dmus Our experiences differ but I have seen nothing to prove to me that the limby bogie and a slightly better paint job warrant the prices Hornby charge for them and I don't think I'll ever understand why people buy it. It's their choice at the end of the day Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.