BigAndy Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Yes, always two sides to any argument, fully agree. However, when one of those sides has won a legal battle against the other party in a court of Law, then that kind of speaks for itself. The Judge quite obviously took RE's side of things and awarded them accordingly. A judges decision is good enough for me, therfore, is it wise to encourage what was a private legal hearing, to be aired on here? I'm not trying in any way to be provocative at all, I just think that it is now best to let it all lie, especially as it was RE's business with Heljan. Everybody should now wipe their mouths and move on. All power to RE and I wish them every success with whoever the other European manufacturer may be. I am also sure that Heljan will continue to produce models that their customers appreciate. cheers Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Hi Andy, In recent years there's been 1 or 2 accounts from persons giving their side of the story that have proved 'incorrect' when analysed properly. Yes it was RE's business with Heljan, but they (R.E.) aired a fair bit of washing on here either directly, or by associates or indirectly via their communique with customers. I'm not saying the account we've heard is wrong ( for legal reasons ) I'd just like to hear the other side to allow us all to fairly judge the situation, not just take one side. Surely that's fair? Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchpole Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 ...I'd just like to hear the other side to allow us all to fairly judge the situation, not just take one side. Surely that's fair? Cheers Dave I Agree. However I suspect the chains of legal settlements may preclude either party from talking too publicly about matters. I do not speak for Rail Exclusive but I do know some of the facts surrounding this episode and it's important some of those facts are "aired" - if only to counter some of the theories people have put forward. Philip Sutton invested a huge amount of capital in getting the 33s project rolling. He then risked even more trying to get his money back in court. People don't enter into such legal battles lightly. Don't forget, this was an argument contested by two parties speaking different languages. I understand the translation fees alone ran into several tens of thousands of pounds. If things had gone the wrong way he risked personal ruin. As I say, I do not speak for Philip or his company, but I do champion the bloke's guts for fighting his corner. Fair play to him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 I think you'll find Kim and his father speak better English than most you'll find in a town centre on a Saturday afternoon. Glad you think its fair Heljan respond though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchpole Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Glad you think its fair Heljan respond though! Why on earth would you think I wouldn't?!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Why on earth would you think I wouldn't?!! Well you quote 'translation fees', I find it confusing that a very good English speaking Danish company would charge that, and also that R.E. Would sign up and pay these fees knowing this. If you mean Danish to Chinese translation, I find it hard to believe that 'Regal Way' don't know very good English either. Especially as they have and continue to be used by English speaking companies very successfully. If chains of legal settlements are precluding them from saying much, I wonder why the 'explicit' mail was put out to R.E. Customers stating those facts? Just seems strange. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchpole Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 I think you misunderstood. Things like translation fees come into play when one party takes another to court. It doesn't matter how well the people involved speak English - it's doesn't mean their legal teams do! As a result,I think every legal document has to be translated. It's another reason why fighting such a case can spiral out of control. As I say, people don't enter such engagements lightly - so RE must have thought their case was very strong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 I think you misunderstood. Things like translation fees come into play when one party takes another to court. It doesn't matter how well the people involved speak English - it's doesn't mean their legal teams do! As a result,I think every legal document has to be translated. It's another reason why fighting such a case can spiral out of control. As I say, people don't enter such engagements lightly - so RE must have thought their case was very strong. Ah, ok, yes your right I did misunderstand, sorry. However you do seem to know an awful lot about what's gone on though. However you are totally correct when you say its gutsy to put your money where your mouth is and go it alone in this business. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 As this is the Heljan thread, it would be very interesting I think, to hear their point if view on this matter. I think there are always 2 sides to a story and invite them to expound here. ....given the fact that they've lost their legal battle with Phil, they'll probably not be saying a great deal. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchpole Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 However you do seem to know an awful lot about what's gone on though. That's because I know the bloke. I also know how much pressure this whole episode has put him under. Even so, I think he's behaved with great dignity and restraint. His duty is to his customers - and he appears to have spoken to each one directly to tell them of the situation. He doesn't need to do anything more. That being the case, you must allow his gobby friends like me to watch his back - especially when people are making assumptions about what has or has not gone on behind closed doors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 ...if only all manufacturers followed Phil's example. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Well you quote 'translation fees', I find it confusing that a very good English speaking Danish company would charge that, and also that R.E. Would sign up and pay these fees knowing this. If you mean Danish to Chinese translation, I find it hard to believe that 'Regal Way' don't know very good English either. Especially as they have and continue to be used by English speaking companies very successfully. If chains of legal settlements are precluding them from saying much, I wonder why the 'explicit' mail was put out to R.E. Customers stating those facts? Just seems strange. Dave - you clearly know more than most about the overall supply chain problems that have emerged over the past two years. Ignoring the specific issue of RE/Heljan, what is your opinion of the general cause of these problems and the likely way forward to cut delays and reduce risk? Is it just growing pains in China, over ambitious demand against limited supply that could never be economically be met in the desired timescales, or something more? Thanks in advance Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Hi Mike, Honestly? I don't think there are many true supply problems in China that can't be fixed. There are various issues within the UK companies that have caused a lot of the problems, then there are problems that have been for seen but not acted on. I can only, to save embarrassment, only write in generalities here so no inference towards any company is conferred. 1) UK fault This is because some companies might have ordered product late, or not at all despite what they may tell you. Some may not have paid bills leaving them down the list for production slots despite what they may tell you. Some may have internal problems that have caused confusion both internal and publicly Some companies have seen this delay coming and not acted upon it and still aren't. 2) China's fault Well let's be honest and brutal here, why make 2000 loco's in the last 4 months of the year when you can make 1m plastic kits in half the time for the same profit? If you don't own your factory, or have your factory own you, you will always play second fiddle. Money is their only goal and you can't blame them. If your late delivering artwork, tooling sign off, deco sign off or even ordering, be prepared to be bumped off or down the list, so UK dates get pushed back accordingly. China factories will always make what they know how to make before a new item, (unless you own the factory) hence a wagon produced previously will always take precedence over a class 79 hover train Wizzo bang loco that hasn't. Staff turnaround is chronic come CNY and no one has thought that return to work bonuses are a good idea to be able to keep your trained/skilled staff. Ergo you spend 3 months recruiting and training every year. The companies that exist at the moment have the ability to cure all this pretty much permanently , not without some pain, but despite the writing being on the wall for the last 4 ( yes 4) years have done nothing to show the modeller that things are better. A lot of this depends on who you employ to firefight, and what his brief is I suppose as it's no use employing someone and then tying their hands with what they can do. This may help, I'm not sure, but I promise you this, it's an accurate reflection on the situation both in the UK and in China. I could tell you all loads more but again who would buy my juicy memoirs? ;-) Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 ....very general Dave and almost irrelevant to this thread and the recent legal battle. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 ....very general Dave and almost irrelevant to this thread and the recent legal battle. Dave The relevance was in being asked a question on this thread and answering it.I'm sure the mods will be along to move or remove it if it's too close to the knuckle for some (even though I covered that possibility as I don't know). Sorry mate, but please feel free with your knowledge of China etc to answer the question on my behalf! Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 ....very general Dave and almost irrelevant to this thread and the recent legal battle. Dave As can be seen from many posts above, the details of the thread cannot be debated meaningfully further, for legal and commercial reasons, so I asked Dave to be general and he has provided the greatest insight into what is going on across our hobby that I have seen for many years, the grist of which appears to be totally avoided by the hobby media. if you have more to add or change, we would all be very receptive. If this needs a new thread to start, then perhaps it could be started with Dave's comments re-posted, to invite wider comment and suggestions for the future? Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verityboo Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 ....very general Dave and almost irrelevant to this thread and the recent legal battle. Dave What a stupid comment. The man was only answering a general question he had been asked! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 As can be seen from many posts above, the details of the thread cannot be debated meaningfully further, for legal and commercial reasons, so I asked Dave to be general and he has provided the greatest insight into what is going on across our hobby that I have seen for many years, the grist of which appears to be totally avoided by the hobby media. if you have more to add or change, we would all be very receptive. If this needs a new thread to start, then perhaps it could be started with Dave's comments re-posted, to invite wider comment and suggestions for the future? Mike ....I would be strongly in favour of a new thread specific to such a topic. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verityboo Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 ....I would be strongly in favour of a new thread specific to such a topic. Dave Then perhaps start one rather than acting like a self appointed moderator! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 ....there we go....a specific thread in Wheeltappers. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest maxthemapman Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Um, if this has gone to a county court and a judgement has been made then everything that took place in court and the entire judgement is public record. That enables the legal system to operate on the basis of precedent, if all cases and outcomes were secret, no one would be able to use one case decision as the basis for another. If anyone knows the court and the date this hearing took place, they should be able to obtain all records and discuss them freely. If this had not gone to court, and an out of court settlement had been made, and the parties had chosen for it to be secret, then that is a different matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchpole Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Um, if this has gone to a county court and a judgement has been made then everything that took place in court and the entire judgement is public record. That enables the legal system to operate on the basis of precedent, if all cases and outcomes were secret, no one would be able to use one case decision as the basis for another. If anyone knows the court and the date this hearing took place, they should be able to obtain all records and discuss them freely. If this had not gone to court, and an out of court settlement had been made, and the parties had chosen for it to be secret, then that is a different matter. In this instance I think you'll find it was both. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Anyone wishing to follow or contribute to the wider issues attempted above, please look at the new thread "The Pros and Cons of ...in the Far East" under the Wheeltappers classification, but instantly accessible by selecting the "What's New" button on the home page, started by Dave (Tor Gifford), which is now starting to build comments. Your participation would be very welcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 As much as I am a fan of the 33's, I just hope that this hasn't damaged Heljan's willingness to produce models for the UK market... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted October 29, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 29, 2013 If at the end of the day they can make money, they will keep on supplying. In fact with their commitment to O gauge, their latest diesels , the forthcoming Garratt and their first dabble in the main steam market, I would suggest Heljan have identified where they can make money. Hoping for some dmus to the standard of their 128 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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