number6 Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I don't get the grizzling about casscaded stock. It would be great to always have new stock for new electrification or perhaps even because its perceived to be 'fair'. i.e. that one region over another gets new trains because its their turn. Someone has to get the old stuff and it has to be more about making things affordable in a time when money is tight than it is to deliberately foist dodgy old tat on the travelling folk of the North West [or in recent times those of Leeds, the North East, South West, Valleys, Anglia, etc.] Many big electrification projects have had a aspect of economy - the Woodhead was an electrified steam railway - there was little change to the workings of the line with electrification. The Southern converted steam stock, BR converted Mk1s into electrics. Also don't forget that sometimes good things come from casscades [although perhaps that is stretching the point here!]: the Western Region had the cast-off 50s from the WCML, the Transpennies had a fling with Deltics, Aberdeen expresses created an Indian summer for the A4s once casscaded off the ECML and the Isle of Wight provides old LT units with a comfy retirement. All of these things I would rather have had than no train at all because new was unaffordable. Mind you I shouldn't compare 319s with A4s! cheers Raphael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I don't get the grizzling about casscaded stock. In this topic we have people moaning about 20 year old EMUs being cascaded. In another thread on the forum we have people complaining about 20 year old class 60s being mothballed. :icon_what: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 So Billions of ??????'s are spent upgrading the WCML to reduce journey times and enable more paths, and you're suggesting diverting some trains via another stop, increasing journey times etc etc. Plain bonkers! I can see the Virgin ads "Don't bother with the train - Go by air" ! P.S. Manchester - London currently every 20 minutes. Pendo's to have 2 extra coaches and additional new 11-car trains already on order. . Thanks for the subtle response Ron, I've done enough journey's between Manchester and London to know how full they get and more coaches will only temporarily solve the issue. I wasn't proposing every Anglo Scottish train get routed via Manchester but in terms of competition with Trans Pennine on Manchester to Glasgow and increase potential seat availability between Manchester and London it is an option that would be open to the West Coast franchise holder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Hi I would hardly say that we are a kingdom (surely a queendom!!) or very united either. Either way we all know where we mean so I'll stop being my usual argumentative gobby cow! I am surprised that the Felixstowe-Nuneaton-Birmingham route is not getting wires. Maybe introducing wires along a short part of the MML between Syston- Wigston would get the residents of the MML asking why they are still waiting for there's? The above scheme would be useful in allowing container trains from East Anglia to the West Midlands to be electrically hauled throughout as well as the Nuneaton- Proof House section getting the wires it should have done in 1963-65 to enable the diversions of the EBW trains not to need a diesel pilot. Not nice for the enthusiast maybe but better for the passenger and train operator as it would enable the diversions to be speeded up. The same scheme would enable emus to be introduced on the Cross Country services in place of the current 170s which could be cascaded. Nuneaton-Coventry would also enable the class 153 to be replaced by a electric unit- could we see an electric bubble car or even one of these tram-train combinations?!! Finally I think it has already been mentioned that most of the above will depend on the current government remaining in power which looks as likely at present as me becoming the next Director of Nursing at the Department of Health... Have the tories (who will likely form the next government- or to make things unbiased the LibDems or really trendy the Greens) decided their electrification strategies yet- assuming they will invest in the flanged wheel mode- and have they been made public yet? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Thanks for the subtle response Ron, I've done enough journey's between Manchester and London to know how full they get and more coaches will only temporarily solve the issue. I wasn't proposing every Anglo Scottish train get routed via Manchester but in terms of competition with Trans Pennine on Manchester to Glasgow and increase potential seat availability between Manchester and London it is an option that would be open to the West Coast franchise holder. Hi, "subtle" Moi? If more capacity is needed between Manchester and London, then as well as the programme to lengthen the Pendolinos, more services may well be needed; but that extra capacity would be severely compromised if seats are taken up by London - Scotland passengers routing via Manchester. In addition it creates a slower, poorer service for those travelling to/from North of the border to the capital if they catch the trains that run this way. In any event, there isn't much room left on the WCML for extra inter-city services to the capital. As far as Manchester - Glasgow goes; it was mentioned earlier in this thread that SET's may find their way on to this route. Personally I think that would be an ideal solution rather than using inter-urban or regional EMU/DMU's. Proper inter-city trains on an inter-city route. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I suspect that following a change of govern the next election that rail will be in a more favourable position than it is now..... If it involves a change of government, it's more likely to be much worst than it is now. No. 1 priority will be massive cuts in government expediture and with many billions of ??????'s being spent on new rail projects, they will cetainly be in the firing line. Plus add the cost and disruption of any major shake-up in the governance and regulation of the railway (which might not be a bad thing in itself), not to mention if they sell-off or break-up Network Rail. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burkitt Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I don't get the grizzling about casscaded stock... Exactly. If the Northerners don't want London's old trains, I'm the people of London would be quite happy to hang on to them to increase capacity on some of the really crowded trains in the capital. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohmisterporter Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Without being poitical, its Economics honest!, tis a bit about cost/benefit and how one would define such relating to expenditure on new railways.... It's the old railway subsidy or investment argument again. Geoff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I am surprised that the Felixstowe-Nuneaton-Birmingham route is not getting wires. Maybe introducing wires along a short part of the MML between Syston- Wigston would get the residents of the MML asking why they are still waiting for there's? There's a reason why I said "not yet" - it's on NR's "wants list", but to be cost effective both in the gear & human resources to do the wiring and in cascading stock usefully you can't wire the whole country all at once. This North West scheme and the GWML are announced and first up, MML is hotly tipped to be next up, there are all sorts of interesting idea's after that with Trans Pennine possibly paving the way for a Cross Country electrification - various infills need to happen as well to make electric freight a feasible option. Finally I think it has already been mentioned that most of the above will depend on the current government remaining in power I would hope it doesn't, the schemes announced pay for themselves easily by cost benefit analysis, and the penalties for not doing it are quite drastic - all of a sudden you're into storing redundant electric trains whilst simultaneously buying several new fleets of diesel trains for example...that makes little sense! why not give the new trains to the provinces and let the Londoners ( who seem to like commuting ) stick with their old stock? sounds more than fair to me Now you're talking! Can "The North" send our old 158's back down to Exeter and we'll return these pesky 142's forthwith! The sensible point in terms of London is that Thameslink 2000 (ha!) cannot be run with 319s, there isn't enough capacity in the units and they are incapable of being operated on the frequency needed. So either way you look at it there's a large fleet of dual voltage 100mph 4 car units coming up for grabs. You reckon they should seriously store those and buy new ones for this electrification? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbeagleowner Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Hi Ron - I know htiws is unlikely in the extreme, but to provide more services to Manchester how about Reinstating great rocks to Rowsley and wiring it all. I believe back in the day Railtrack considered it (without the wires) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 Hi Ron - I know htiws is unlikely in the extreme, but to provide more services to Manchester how about Reinstating great rocks to Rowsley and wiring it all. I believe back in the day Railtrack considered it (without the wires) Trying not to step on my own argument for sending some Anglo-Scottish services via Manchester, it would be too slow. When they had the HST services running between London St Pancras and Piccadilly during the blockades on the West Coast they took forever to get to London. Obviously those services were dovetailed around other existing services on the MML so probably were slower than a proper full service but so any scheme to re-introduce that line would still need investment in raising line speeds as well to make it comparable with the West Coast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted December 16, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 16, 2009 Great Rocks to Rowlsey would have had AC electrification by 1918 as part of he Midland's plans with 6.6KV 25 Hz AC overhead. The Lancaster Morecambe Heysham system was the prototype for a Derby Manchester scheme priarily for freight. So perhaps it could come off again. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 Great Rocks to Rowlsey would have had AC electrification by 1918 as part of he Midland's plans with 6.6KV 25 Hz AC overhead. The Lancaster Morecambe Heysham system was the prototype for a Derby Manchester scheme priarily for freight. So perhaps it could come off again. Jamie Probably not as the tunnels are about to be reopened for walkers and riders, so it looks like the foot brigade have laid claim to the trackbed. I'm sure that will make it harder for the preserved railway as well to progress from Rowsley as they are to use the tunnels on the paths whereas currently they are locked out of use and walkers have to divert. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbeagleowner Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I'd never heard of those MR plans! Did they plan anymore wires? The more I learn about the pregrouping period the more interesting it is! I think it's also duper ot here that they are planning to reopne the tunnels to walkers - that would be super! As much as Id like to see it happenm I'm not sure that peak rail will ever reconnect the line as whether the peak park authority would be keen. However, the NYMR does bring a lot of money in, so it might be good for tourists - mayeb share the trackbed, one single line for the trains and one for pedestrians and cyclists. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 I'd never heard of those MR plans! Did they plan anymore wires? The more I learn about the pregrouping period the more interesting it is! I think it's also duper ot here that they are planning to reopne the tunnels to walkers - that would be super! As much as Id like to see it happenm I'm not sure that peak rail will ever reconnect the line as whether the peak park authority would be keen. However, the NYMR does bring a lot of money in, so it might be good for tourists - mayeb share the trackbed, one single line for the trains and one for pedestrians and cyclists. You'd think, but once H&S get their hands on it I can imagine it will be one or the other and I don't think the trains would win out over the walkers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 You'd think, but once H&S get their hands on it I can imagine it will be one or the other and I don't think the trains would win out over the walkers. The NVR does the same thing in places - a single line on the old double track formation with a path running along side. I don't see why there should be a H&S issue doing this so long as there is a decent fence. At least not in the real world of H&S, as opposed to the fantasy "today we will make you angry about the H&S banning something" world of the Daily Mail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Dartmoor Railway is the same between Okehampton and Meldon - no problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Dartmoor Railway is the same between Okehampton and Meldon - no problem. This is what every old railway line across the country should look like! And, come to think of it, all major roads too... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 The NVR does the same thing in places - a single line on the old double track formation with a path running along side. I don't see why there should be a H&S issue doing this so long as there is a decent fence. At least not in the real world of H&S, as opposed to the fantasy "today we will make you angry about the H&S banning something" world of the Daily Mail. Sorry, I was meaning in the tunnels, the current paths being opened up in the Peaks are the tunnels, walkers already use the trackbed and there will be be space to accomodate a single track and still allow walkers freedom, but in tunnels it would be a different matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I would have thought the biggest risk to a walker in an old railway tunnel is a random brick/rock dropping from the top on a walkers head - if they have a sensible fence they can't wander through by accident then the presence of a train in a tunnel I suspect doesn't change much? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 I would have thought the biggest risk to a walker in an old railway tunnel is a random brick/rock dropping from the top on a walkers head - if they have a sensible fence they can't wander through by accident then the presence of a train in a tunnel I suspect doesn't change much? I would have thought the noise levels and smoke/diesel fumes in a confined space would be the reason over proximity to the train for humans, if horses are allowed through then they might not like the sharing the space with one of it's metal bretheren. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbeagleowner Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I take your point Woodenhead - the funny thing is that if that happened then we'd have come full circle and the walkers would be back in Chee Dale again on those stepping stones! To put it into perspective, I have read articles which say the NYMR bringd in 300,000 visitiors and contributes 30 million quid to teh economy (http://www.bridgeandwheels.co.uk/) I guess directly and indirectly. And I think that any railway connecting Matlock, Bakewell and Buxton would do a similar thing. HOwever, I'm sure I heard once that the Duke of Rutland (is that right) who owns Haddon Hall once said that he would only allow a 'proper' railway through the tunnel under his land and that along with the A6 bridge at Rowsley was one of the major objections. I wonder if being part of the national network but with preserved trains along it would be the way forward. I think it would serve the public interest for both tourists, locals and be a much better way of connecting the East Midlands with Manchester then exists at the moment and also as a feight artery. And I think if you ran preserved stuff on it too then it would boost the income of the area. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 As I see it a preserved railway through the Peaks would complement rather than detract from the scenery and attract tourists who want to see the views from a comfortable perspective, especially in the winter. I think any chance of this will be lost once the walkers, who I believe are quite a powerful movement, get their feet in the tunnels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbeagleowner Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I think I agree with you Woodenhead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share Posted December 30, 2009 Browsing Steam World today, there was an article on the Peak District plans to re-open the tunnels to walkers. Apparently Peakrail have not been party to the discussions between Government/councils and the walking fraternity and it could be curtains for their plans to eventually relay the track right back to what's left of their land in Buxton. There is still time to negotiate, lets hope that something good can still come from this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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